Author Topic: The argument against UR based upon "Covenant"  (Read 1403 times)

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martincisneros

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The argument against UR based upon "Covenant"
« on: July 04, 2008, 05:01:57 PM »
The Bible is a series of Covenants.  God's done His part.  The Bible requires that we do our part.  This is a variation on the "free will" argument that bares more weight than the "free will" argument alone because of the example of the marriage covenant and other forms of covenant where obviously two people/families aren't in it without mutual consent.  I think that the point of the covenant is often missed about God looking for believers that'll be His instruments for the blessing of every single individual everywhere, but I won't tackle this one in it's entirely 'cause my thoughts on this aren't very organized and I'm hoping for feedback on this one.  Because definitely in Charismatic circles with their inherent supernaturalism everything that they're about is "Because of the provisions previously made in Christ, I do this and God does that; I don't do this, and I go without" which is valid in several areas of life not connected to anyone's "eternity," but what thoughts have you got on this?

Patrick

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Re: The argument against UR based upon "Covenant"
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2008, 10:33:28 PM »
Covenents are a wonderful aspect of God's word, but not all covenants take two parties to ratify them.  All covenants involve at least two parties but not all covenants recorded in scripture require participation of both parties to ratify the covenant.

In one case God made Abraham fall asleep while he ratified the covenant by walking between the two halves of the sacrified oxen Gen15:9-19 Abraham did not have anything to do to bring the blessing about. Covenants usually involve a promise of blessing ,cursing, terms for both parties to fulfill, and oath and a sacrifrice.  In this case Abraham had nothing to do to ratify the covenant.  God walked alone between the sacrifices.  He alone promised to bring about what was pormised. 

The greatest covenant is when God swears-covenants by His own name to do something.  When He swares by His own name then nothing can stop it from occuring.

Heb 6:13-19  For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,  (14)  Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.  (15)  And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.  (16)  For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.  (17)  Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:  (18)  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:  (19)  Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

God has sworn that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord INTO the glory.  This is a scriptural fact all will confess Jesus christ is Lord and this confession will bring them all into the very glory of the Father.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The argument against UR based upon "Covenant"
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 02:07:57 AM »
Quote
God has sworn that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord INTO the glory.  This is a scriptural fact all will confess Jesus christ is Lord and this confession will bring them all into the very glory of the Father.


This is one of the more blatent contradictions to ETers especially so to the preaching of people like John Hagee.

They will say that this is a verse where God forces the stubborn into submission before casting them into hell. Isn't it interesting that we hear "God doesn't force anyone to do anything". yet, he will break the legs of those too stubborn to bow before him willingly. 

That right there is evidence enough that the heart behind that belief is not of God.


 Or I have also heard that if this happens after death it will be the moment when a person realizes how bad they screwed up and it will be to late for redemption.   The God of mercy, the God of Love is going to stand before someone weeping before Christ and then say "Sorry, too late for you"

Again,  that idea is not a biblical idea, it is an idea from the adversary.


Fact remains, if being "saved" is a product of "confessing Jesus Christ as Lord"  then  that verse is indeed proof that all will be saved.   Can a person claim that there will be even ONE that will not bow and confess according to any perspective of that verse?  Doubtfully so.



Patrick

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Re: The argument against UR based upon "Covenant"
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 04:21:12 PM »
You know Paul I agree whole heartedly with what you have stated.  I know that when you trace that verse in Phillpians back to it's old testement roots.  Not only does it knock out that fantasy of a forced confession from hell that Jesus is Lord; it completely destroys it.

Isa 45:22-24  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.  (23)  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.  (24)  Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.


The confession is not just Jesus is Lord but it is in Him we have righteousness and strength. And this confession is going to be sworn to.  Now in the Hebrew the word swear is:

 shâba‛
shaw-bah'
A primitive root; properly to be complete, but used only as a denominative from H7651; to seven oneself, that is, swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times): - adjure, charge (by an oath, with an oath), feed to the full [by mistake for H7646], take an oath, X straitly, (cause to, make to) swear.


"Surely one shall say"  Who is that one who will be saying this?

Ephesians provides the answer to this question.

Eph 1:10-11  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:  (11)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Christ which includes the church who are his body who are in Him will be confessing this. 1 cor 12:12 Eph 1:20-23.

This is in no way shape or fashion a tortured swear from the depths of hell's torment.  No this is the greatest covenant that god has ever made with man when he sware by himself that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear that in the Lord Jesus Christ  we have righteousness and strength, and this confession will bring us all into the glory of the Father that he gave to Jesus.

How can anyone by any stretch of the imagination still swallow that lie that those in hell are going to be forced into a confession that Jesus is Lord, and not be partakers of his righteousness and strength that is found in him?

Grace and peace Patrick