I have been searching, asking and doing my own research. I asked a pastor friend of mine for help answering some questions about UR. Here is the conversation. I think it might be the best rebuttal to some of the UR stances I have read.
I also want to bring up some of the tranlational problems.
II Th 2:12
Krinos= translated damnation. I also believe this to be a poor translation. Krinos is best described as a remedial judgement and punishment. If the Bible was talking about eternal damnation I believe he would have used the word timoria. Timoria is a vindictive judgement and punishment which carries a heavier weight. When speaking about eternity in hell...this is no longer remedial...corrective...it's punitive.
Alright. Let's look at the Greek words first. κρίνω (krinō) is the first verb found in 2 Thes. 2:12. This verb, without context, can mean a variety of things, including (From the BDAG, the normal, everyday lexicon for pastors) "to make a selection, select, prefer, to pass judgement upon the lives and actions of others, to make judgement based on various factors taken into account, (judge, consider, think, look upon), to come to a conclusion after cognitive proecess-reach a decision, decide, propose, intend, or even to engage in a legal process. Louw-Nida has just about the same thing, as does most of the others." So we are comfortable with the semantic range provided by the BDAG. But now, we must decide where in the semantic range does the usage actually fall?
Remember, there is no definition without context. So what is the context?
Quote:Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For ⌊that day⌋ will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.
5 Don't you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains ⌊him⌋, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming ⌊of the lawless one⌋ is based on Satan's working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. ⌊They perish⌋ because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, 12 so that all will be condemned—those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
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Now, before we even translate what "krinō" means, we have to look at something else. See where it says "So that" in the beginning of verse 12? That, in the greek, is what is known as a "hina clause" (for reference, or where I am quoting, you can pick up a "Wallace, Greek Grammar- to read what I am saying). It is very important, because that kind of clause can do many things, and it tells you exactly how to read the following phrase-as it is now dependent on the preceding phrase. Here, the following very is the very one we are looking at. It is what is called an Aorist subjunctive. Don't worry about what that is yet, instead, worry about how it affects the "hina clause". Because when an Aorist Subjunctive follows the word "hina" it can mean one of only three things. Verse 12 therefore either means 1. That it is the purpose of verse 11, it answers the question Why? or 2. it expresses the result of the action, it is a consequence of the verbal action that is not intended! So in this case, verse 12 would not be the intended result, but it IS a result (this is usually translated "so that" which is what the above translation uses) Or three, it is the purpose-result, that is, both the intention, and the purpose is tied up in verse 12.
So the question then, is how is this clause used? My belief, is that it is a purpose-result clause. Why? Because a purpose-result clause can "be used for the result which follows according to the purpose of the subject or of God." Basically, the NT writers choose to blur the lines between purpose and result in dealing with God's intentions, as they seem to be one. Thus, the purpose and reason for God sending a strong delusion (the next words, in the Greek, are in the infinitive, thus, no time what so ever, it is a continual belief) to believe what is false- Is for the purpose AND the result of God judging (however we define that) them-those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
So, We have vs. 11 and 12 figured out (except for Krinō). Yet, we then must look at the context of vs. 10, because the connecting word in verse 11 is "dia" which means verse 11 and 10 has a logical connection. Because the word is used with the accusative form (split a sentence in two, and you have the subject and the predicate. The subject is doing the action, the predicate receives the action. The accusative is the noun in teh predicate part of the phrase) of the pronoun, we know that it is used as causative. That is, the former part of the sentence is causing the latter part. Thus, it is interpreted as "because" or "on account of" or maybe "for sake of". What I quoted above just uses "for" instead of "For sake of" which is shortening it. I don't like that, because too many times we read it in English and don't pick up the entire meaning.
So when we pull together verse 10, it now says, They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved, ON ACCOUNT OF THIS REASON- Gogd sends thim a strong delusion that they will believe what is false, WITH THE PURPOSE AND RESULT OF them being Judged (however we interpret it), (and then notice that Paul specifies who is being judged, the very ones being spoken of in verse 9, 10) the ones who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
What then, do we see by context as we even come to the word krinō, before we even begin to look at the semantic domain of the word? We see from context that 1. these people are perishing because they didn't accpet the love of truth. 2. They choose unrighteous deception. 3. God thus pushed them in thier continuance of delusion to believe what his false, 4. so that whatever he does when he krinō's them, it it will be those who don't believe.
Now let's go back to the semantic domain.
to make a selection, select, prefer, to pass judgement upon the lives and actions of others, to make judgement based on various factors taken into account, (judge, consider, think, look upon), to come to a conclusion after cognitive proecess-reach a decision, decide, propose, intend, or even to engage in a legal process.
Well, in context, what does it look like? They didn't accpet, they chose unrighteousness, God pushed them to contineu that way why? To It seems the best one here is "to pass judgement upon the lives and actions of others".
Now, what kind of judgement is that? Well, now we have to go back to what KIND of Aorist this subjunctive Krinō is. It is an aorist, which usually means that it is in the past, and probably finished in the past, though it can be used as a state which was entered into the past or the like (too much to go into!). However, the past here just doesn't make sense does it? Why? Because the phrase has made the word take on the aorist more than anything else. So keep in mind a general completion, and translate it in the best way the context tells us to. That happend, so that God may do THAT!. Or, for the reason that God may jugdge them all based on their actions and deeds-which were refusing Him.
So then, they are judged, not for a temporal sin, but for the complete and final sin of refusing Jesus Christ. In other words, the importance of this sentence is not the judging itself, but in what they were judged for, and that is a refusal of the messiah and instead, the choice to follow Satan.
Quote:Gehenna= translated hell...which obviously was a place in southern Jerusalem. It was used as a metaphor by Jewish teachers to describe a punishing place of purification. Closest translation would be purgatory. Considering Jesus was speaking to a people who would understand Gehenna in the tradional since I would think that's what he meant. Or was it a metaphor in a metaphor?
Actually, let's go to what Gehenna physically was. It was a garbage dump which was burned, and continually burned. The fires at the dump never went out. People always came and through more things in the dump, thus, the fires always burned. There is no true English word, as there is no true English word for Jerusalem either. It is a word which reflects a literal place. Thus, in order to bring into 21st century English, it would be best to find an equivalent in today's culture. My first thought is Cleveland, but I don't think that works here. So what can we use? Think of a place that stinks, it is always on fire, there is nothing of value there, and no one wants to be around there... alright.. CLEVELAND. Wait, wait, this is bible stuff, not football.
Whatever it is that you can think of, THAT is the best translation. Purgatory does not work here, because the concept of purgatory is a place of punishment for a certain time, then a removal from that punishment. However, when you through trash into gehenna, you didn't do it with the intention of coming back in a few days, weeks, or months to pick out a purified version of what you took there. YOu did it with the reason of tossing it for good.
Be careful going to the Rabbis, because the talmud is centuries later than Jesus, though some of the teaching originated before him. To see other statements concerning Gehenna, look at documents from before JEsus was born.
This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)
Notice the teaching of Gehenna here. as well as these apocrahyl and pseudopicgraphal books from before Jesus
2 Baruch 59 5 But then also He showed to him the measures of the fire, also the depths of the abyss, and the weight of the winds, and the number of the drops of rain: 6 And the suppression of anger, and the multitude of long-suffering, and the truth of judgement: 7 And the root of wisdom, and the riches of understanding, and the fount of knowledge: 8 And the height of the air, and the greatness of Paradise, and the consummation Of the ages, and the beginning of the day of judgement: 9 And the number of the offerings, and the earths which have not yet come: 10 And the mouth of Gehenna, and the station of vengeance, and the place of faith, and the region of hope: 11 And the likeness of future torment, and the multitude of innumerable angels...
4 Ezra and deeds of iniquity shall not sleep.
36 And then shall rthe pit of tormentr appear,
sand over against it the place of refreshments;
The furnace of Gehenna shall be made manifest,
and over against it the Paradise of delight.
(and then go down to vs. 43) And its duration shall be as it were a week of years. 44 Such is my Judgement and bits prescribed orderb: to thee only have I showed these things.
Now, that may seem like just a period of time. But notice two things. 1. There is no ascension. So if you do accept this, then it is talking about the annihlation of the wicked, not that they go to heaven. But 2., it is a week of years... which is... 7. 7 is a very tricky number in the bible. It is a number of completion. In other words, this happens in completion! It happens in fulfillment of God's time. Thus, there is no terminus stated.
I don't want to belabor the point. But in short, Gehenna can't mean just a short term place of suffering before heaven.
Quote:MK 9: 42-49
And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell (Gehenna), where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Everyone will be salted with fire.
Everyone will be salted with fire? Sounds alot like purgatory to me rather than an eternal hell. Certainly doesn't sound like damnation to an eternal burning hell.
Yes, but the context notice, is a place where "the fire never goes out". The goal here, is to throw the eye or the hand into the place where the fire never goes out, instead of the entire body going there. Also remember, purgatory WILL sound like that, because it is a medieval doctrine of the Catholic church, by which they took these passages and reinterpreted them to fit their doctrine.
It is the same way as if I took a football team, dressed them in Black and Gold, put the Steel sign on them, and then years later, people said that the Pittsburgh steelers must be interpeted according to my football team because of the similarity. It is reversed, my team must be interpreted according to the original team... and purgatory must be accepted or rejected, according to the text.
Quote:
Tartaroo...a place of punishment for fallen angels mentioned once from my recollection. 2 Pe 2:4
This entire section of Peter is actually drawn from "the watchers" which is comes out of Enoch. That is enough to say that this is a weird section. However, understand that tartaros was not a separate place, but as once commentary states it, was basically like the dungeons of Hades where one is kept in chains until brought before the king. In other words, the concept here is that it is a special place of confinement for their actions. This understanding is true of both Greeks and Jews of the first century. I like the KJV here, "Chains of darkness". It is not a place that is designated for humanity.
Quote:
Hades...poorly translated from the Hebrew word Sheol which means grave. It does not mean torment.
