Author Topic: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven  (Read 6585 times)

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Offline Gary Amirault

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unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« on: September 25, 2007, 09:10:49 PM »
Gary: Here's another email I received today from an inquirer. Perhaps some of you might like to respond. I refer those who emailed me to this forum. So they might be reading your responses:

Gary,
 
I have a question, but first allow me to state that in light of my limited study, comparison, of Scripture and such, I, through these sprinkled with some good ol' fashioned common sense, has led me to discard the belief in eternal torment and everlasting torture. This brings me to the question. 1) Don't the Bible teach that the unsaved will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? That might not translate into eternal suffering, but it seems to indicate that the wicked will definately perish--being consumed, devoured, and destroyed. In other words, they will die in pain and suffering, but it's their death, or being dead that will last for eternity, right? 2) Do you really believe that all of the billions upon billions upon billions of people who've come and gone on Earth since Adam will one day be in Heaven?

Offline dboutwell

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 11:28:29 PM »
Wow! Good questions....

Will be back later. ....have to go get my grandbabies.

Debbie
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Offline Kratos

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 12:45:50 AM »
Good questions. It is true that only the saved will enter the Kingdom because I believe that the terms mean the same thing. Beign saved is entering the Kingdom which is the Kingdom of Heaven. So, everyone who is saved enters the Kingdom which is "going to Heaven".

The question really is whether everyone will be saved. I believe they will though not in this life or in this present age. God will be All in All so all will be reconciled to Him by entering His Kingdom. The assumption that has been wrongly made in my opinion is that God cannot save after natural death after the resurrection of the wicked dead. I believe that He can and that He will.

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Offline studier

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 01:23:16 AM »
The assumption that has been wrongly made in my opinion is that God cannot save after natural death after the resurrection of the wicked dead. I believe that He can and that He will.

I agree.

I will come back later today to try to help answer or shed light on an answer proposed questions.

arcticmonster2003

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 01:39:30 AM »
edit
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 02:53:40 AM by arcticmonster2003 »

Offline studier

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 01:42:16 AM »
Quote
I personally believe that no man or woman shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven without accepting Christ as their savior and Lord. Where my beliefs differ from "conventional" is that I believe that all will eventually accept their salvation thru Christ each in their own order and all on the last day. Lets remember, what Christ did on the cross did not just affect us on earth. He is also the savior of angels, we can see that they overcame in heaven thru the victory of Christ.

I agree, that is what it means by being raised last, or second resurrection of the dead, or raised after the thousand years is over.

Offline dboutwell

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2007, 06:13:03 AM »
31 Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.
(Mat 21:31)
Does this statement mean exactly what it says, that these high and mighty Pharisees will go into the kingdom, just later, or, is this a way of saying they won't be there at all?

If they do enter the kingdom wouldn't it have to be after their death because of what Jesus said to them in Matthew 23?( how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?)

These are some that will be raised in the last resurrection, right? Missing the 1000 year reign(if it's literal). Is that what Jesus meant by "kingdom" in that particular verse?

Debbie
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Debbie

Offline 97531

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2007, 10:22:38 AM »
Dear enquirer

I will like to break down and address as points using as little scripture as possible.

I have a question, but first allow me to state that in light of my limited study, comparison, of Scripture and such, I, through these sprinkled with some good ol' fashioned common sense, has led me to discard the belief in eternal torment and everlasting torture.

You mention this as an aside but is very pertinent to revelation.  Once one dismisses the ludicrousy of ET, you are left with a choice to replace that teaching with something else.  The natural transition is annihilation which still satisfies logic.  However scripture is very clear the dead in Christ and the "wicked" shall both be resurrected and ALL will face the WTJ.

The problem with current teaching is everything including Revelation is taught as a pure future event.  Let us just look at the "dead in Christ".  The traditional is to see this as those that "accepted" their salvation prior to death.  However it can also be taken to mean the exact opposite.  Before you came to know Jesus, were you not dead in Christ?

This brings me to the question. 1) Don't the Bible teach that the unsaved will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? That might not translate into eternal suffering, but it seems to indicate that the wicked will definately perish--being consumed, devoured, and destroyed. In other words, they will die in pain and suffering, but it's their death, or being dead that will last for eternity, right?

Let us examine Kingdom.

There are two kingdoms referred to in the NT and they are

1. Kingdom of God
2. Kingdom of heaven

What is the difference?

They both appear in context and are by virtue of Greek not interrelated Greek words or are they?

heaven G3772 ουρανός ouranos oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

God G2316 θεός theos theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

If we look at the born again texts we see:

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4  Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?
Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


The evangelical theology requires that we be born-again to be saved, yet here we see reference to kingdom of God and not heaven.

For me the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God speaks about exactly the same thing and I find this here:

Mat 12:28  But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

Mat 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent! For the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Mat 10:7  And as you go, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Luk 10:9  And heal the sick that are in it, and say to them, The kingdom of God has come near you!
Luk 10:10  And into whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, going out into the streets say,
Luk 10:11  Even the dust of your city which clings to us, we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.


From this you can see the interchangeability of phrases used saying the same thing.

The point I am trying to make is, do you view heaven/kingdom as something to come or as something coming i.e. perpetual?  The view you hold to will affect how you view other scriptures.

When Jesus came to the earth, He brought the kingdom with Him and was the focus of His teaching and not "hell" as it is purported.  Seeing kingdom as both now perpetual and as something we continue into at physical death IMO is the correct way to view it.

..but it seems to indicate that the wicked will definately perish--being consumed, devoured, and destroyed

Here you are correct but you need to see it also in a slightly different light.  The wicked(ness) will perish but not the man.  His wickedness is what is consumed, devoured and destroyed, not the man.

If we accept Jesus died for all mankind's sins past present and future, then we must accept the penalty of sin is paid for.  Yet even after we are saved, we still sin right?  The only difference is, we, the "saved" have been drawn by the Father to this revelation.  We do not and have not the ability carnally to seek out God and make a choice although it is inferred that we can, scripture is very clear on this point.

Joh 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw [drag] him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.


Jesus remains the only way to the Father but likewise the Father must do the drawing.

If you explore other threads, I have touched on this in more detail esp. with respect to salvation.

2) Do you really believe that all of the billions upon billions upon billions of people who've come and gone on Earth since Adam will one day be in Heaven?

Yes.  What is the alternative?  Annihilation, eternal torment?  How does God become All-in-all unless this is true?

It is not for us to convince you.  You have valid questions but only though the Holy Spirit can these things become truth to you.  We share how we see it and if your spirit witnesses with it that is fine.  The more you question, the more you dig, the more you will learn.

This is a good place to ask questions and interact with members.  No one here shares the exact same understanding of scriptures.  We are all on a path of growth and each have different revelation.  Why not register and participate.  There are boards you cannot see as a guest.

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Gizmo

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 03:40:02 AM »
I wonder if the Kingdom is describing a complete lack in self-righteousness.  That is why the tax collectors and harolots enter before the Pharisee..because the Pharisee is doing something to earn his way to heaven.  Many church folk do the same thing, earning reconciliation through belief.  "I believe, means I'm saved, means I'm reconciled".  That tends to be the refrain.  The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that belief that earns me right standing with God is the yeast of the Pharisees.

Anyway, when I realize there is NOTHING I did for God to make me right with Him, there is NO self-righteousness and I am in the Kingdom, walking in the Spirit etc.  I find peace there and slowly begin to generate the fruit of the Spirit.  But if I think I can do something to be right with God, I am in the flesh.

Just a few ramblings...
Peace,
Gizmoidicus

Offline studier

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 07:20:35 PM »
I wonder if the Kingdom is describing a complete lack in self-righteousness.  That is why the tax collectors and harolots enter before the Pharisee..because the Pharisee is doing something to earn his way to heaven.  Many church folk do the same thing, earning reconciliation through belief.  "I believe, means I'm saved, means I'm reconciled".  That tends to be the refrain.  The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that belief that earns me right standing with God is the yeast of the Pharisees.

Anyway, when I realize there is NOTHING I did for God to make me right with Him, there is NO self-righteousness and I am in the Kingdom, walking in the Spirit etc.  I find peace there and slowly begin to generate the fruit of the Spirit.  But if I think I can do something to be right with God, I am in the flesh.

Just a few ramblings...
Peace,
Gizmoidicus

Hey Gizmo, check out the thread "God's fairness" I totally agree with what you in this response.

Enchiridion

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2007, 09:57:38 PM »
The question really is whether everyone will be saved.

Saved from what?



Offline 97531

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 10:18:12 PM »
The question really is whether everyone will be saved.

Saved from what?

Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save4982 his people from their sins

G4982 σώζω sōzō sode'-zo
From a primary word σως sōs (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Dig deeper, truth shall be revealed.  A "saved from" mentality is fire insurance, a "saved into" mentality opens you up for God to reveal Himself fully to you.

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Offline Pierac

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2007, 10:46:50 PM »

Jesus will reign as King in the Kingdom of God/Heaven!   So, what happens when the reign ends?

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

1Co 15:25  For He (Jesus) must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

What happens when He has put all His enemies under His feet?

Paul

Enchiridion

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 11:44:25 PM »
The question really is whether everyone will be saved.

Saved from what?

Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save4982 his people from their sins


Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
And given that the rest of the verse talks about eternal life, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the first part is talking about eternity too.
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Quote
G4982 σώζω sōzō sode'-zo
From a primary word σως sōs (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

"Deliver."  "Protect."  "Save."  "Preserve."  From WHAT?    Or, if you prefer, TO what?


I think the thing that bugs me most about this whole "It's all good" mentality is that no one seems to understand how deeply God abhorrs sin.  One aspect of the definition you shared above is "heal" or "be (make) whole"  which leaves us with the idea that we (apart from Christ) are NOT whole, but damaged, stained, sick.  Is it your contention that this condition has no consequence?  That in the end God will simply shrug and say, "No biggie"?  Gosh, if that's the case, He sure wasted a lot of time and energy trying to correct His children.

Quote
Dig deeper, truth shall be revealed. A "saved from" mentality is fire insurance, a "saved into" mentality opens you up for God to reveal Himself fully to you.

Since you don't know me, I can see why you'd make assumptions about me, (it's only reasonable given that you probably have had conversations similar to this more than once)  but I find this glib dismissal a bit off-putting.  Your own definition indicates a potential for peril.  I'm just trying to figure out what this peril is.  Because if there is no peril, there sure are a lot of missionaries who are wasting their time!

Quote
Blessings

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Offline CHB

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2007, 01:37:01 AM »

Hi,

The message that Jesus preached while he was on earth was ONLY for Israel (Matt. 15:24).

The Kingdom of God was promised to the Israelites. The Kingdom of God and salvation are two different things altogether. The twelve apostles will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel on earth during the thousand year reign, or Millennium. This is when God will teach the world (John 6:45) and it also says that every man that hath heard and learned of the Father cometh unto me. So, all those that are murders, liars, fornicators, and so forth will eventually come to Christ. Then God will be in ALL MANKIND, even the worst of sinners will repent when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess (Isaiah 45:23).

There will not be anything that defileth, maketh a lie, murderers, fornicators, and so forth in the Kingdom, all of those will be outside being taught. (Isaiah 2:2) says many nations will flow into the Kingdom of God. In verse 3, it speaks of people being taught of God. (Psalms 72:7-11) says ALL nations shall serve him Verse 9 says , His enemies shall lick the dust. (Isaiah 52:15) for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.  There will come a time when ALL will know the Lord, from the least to the greatest.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if our knowledge depended upon our salvartion that God would make sure that there would be no question as to what was right? Instead we have many different denominations saying many different things and many Bibles that have many mistakes in them. Who knows all things but God? it will take God teaching man because we humans only see through a glass darkly as Paul said. No man will be able to boast about knowing it all, all glory and honor will go to God.

CHB

Offline firstborn888

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2007, 10:08:43 AM »
Your own definition indicates a potential for peril.  I'm just trying to figure out what this peril is.  Because if there is no peril, there sure are a lot of missionaries who are wasting their time!

Hi there Enchiridion. Good to see you here.

Obviously there is a huge gap between what is believed to be at stake in mainstream Christian theology and in what is believed to be at stake in ultimate reconciliation circles.

UR believers understand that Jesus Christ is successfully implementing God's plan/will of reconciling the world to Himself. Simple as that.

I think it is plain that within the mainstream 'eternal torment' view, the gospel is a desperate attempt by God to salvage a few from a creation which has been hi-jacked by Adam's decision to follow satan. Billions who never asked to be born will pay the price of eternal torture and despair because of what someone else did. But, they'll say (not in these words, but basically) "All men have chance to repent and avoid it all, but if they're THAT dense and THAT evil, then ta' hell with 'em!"

 I've heard every explanation in the book for this, down to it being stated that all lost people are literal 'children of the devil' and so God has no choice.

Question: If Adam, the son of God, who walked and talked with God face to face was not able to make the 'right choice', then how can 'children of the devil' who are born with an already sinful nature (and blind to God) be expected to do any better?

Of course the answer is that in most cases, they don't.

Sounds to me like you're a firm believer in the scriptures. So am I. So the hard part is to reconcile the scriptures which say that Christ is the not only the propitiation for the 'believers' sins but also for the sins of the whole world, with the ones that seem to indicate 'everlasting' punishment for the unbeliever.

The reason I share Christ (even door to door) and don't consider it a 'waste of time' is because I'm a part of God's reconciliation process. None whom the Father has given to Jesus will be lost, but I have the privilege of shining the light to some of those who will receive the saving work of Christ during this current dispensation.

The peril is obvious. There is tremendous, unimaginable suffering worldwide even as we speak. Sin is nothing to be taken lightly, but the penalty has already been meted out in the expulsion from the garden - death, separation from the knowledge of God. But, as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. They're comin' back!

I preach Jesus for the same reason I give a hungry man food or a thirsty man water. People need the Lord, not to save them from eternal torture - but to save them from their current state of sin, death, separation and darkness. If there are missionaries out there who would be unwilling to sacrifice for something perceived to be so non-perilous and non-urgent as a dead world full of desperate hurting people who need to be re-united with their creator - they should probably just go home.

Ultimately God will have to reveal truth to you, but in the meantime you must ask yourself why God would go ahead with a plan with the most horrendous outcome imaginable, and with only the 'cure' proving itself to be so incredibly ineffective.

I've heard it said that it was worth putting all creation at risk like this in order for God to gain a few who would willingly love Him - not like His robotic angels who have 'no choice' in the matter. Not just people who were pre-programmed to love him. What kind of love would that be???

So He sets up a plan so that after the fall (which He foreknew) all those 'special people' will, once realizing the depravity of their ways, humble themselves enough to accept Jesus, become His true friends, and walk away together with Him into paradise as one big happy family while little sis and dad and grandma are all herded off screaming to the eternal cosmic torture chamber to experience end-ending pain and anguish. Do you see how this is not 'good news and glad tidings' to all people?

But someone says "it IS good news, if they would just choose spiritual health and security and peace *over* endless hell fire."

So if the true ending is known by God, why all the coy disguises? Is it so that the announcing angelic host can feel good about themselves while they're pronouncing the 'good news' that Christ has come, even if only a few will 'get it' and the majority have a future who's horrors defy comprehension? Can you just picture one angel nudging the second and whispering 'do I really have to say "glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people?" I mean, the boss has already told us that the vast majority of these people are going to reject the good news and then go to that fire-pit thing with Luci and his buddies. Can't we just say "This is God's best shot at getting a few of you out of here alive, so you'd BETTER appreciate it" or something more honest like that?' The second angel responds with sternness: "You just shut up and do what you're told before YOU end up down there in the pit with them!"

I hope and pray that it will become clear to you that the mainstream's view just doesn't add up. Somethings missing....

 byron



 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 10:25:17 AM by SeekerSA »

Offline 97531

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2007, 12:15:45 PM »
Hi Enchiridion

Quote from: SeekerSA
Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save4982 his people from their sins

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
And given that the rest of the verse talks about eternal life, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the first part is talking about eternity too.
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If it is a gift, which it is, if the gift is not revealed by the Father who needs to draw us then the gift goes unnoticed.

Joh 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw(1670) [drags] him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

G1670 ελκύω, έλκω helkuō  helkō hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

Supporting this is:

Eph 2:8-9  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, 9  not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The faith is also not of ourselves but of God's doing.  Our puny faith accomplishes nada.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. But lets look at that verse again with the preceding verses:

Rom 6:17  But thanks be to our God that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Rom 6:18  Then being made free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19  I speak in the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act
, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20  For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21  What fruit did you have then in those things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

Rom 6:22  But now, being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/color]

BTW, I am not a context only person.  Here we clearly see the preamble of the verse you quoted.

Slaves of sin
made free from sin, slaves to righteousness
the weakness of your flesh
yield.. to righteousness unto holiness
being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God
etc.

How is a slave set free, by his own choice? by his master?

Here you may imply that we have free-will to choose, we don't.  It is a fallacy of the mainstream teachings aka we are not robots.

When you hear the evangelical message, why do all not respond instantly if it is so simple?  If it is not your time, the dragging has not taken place and you can sit through 10000 Billy Graham crusades and not come forward to the alter calls.  That said, alter calls have become traditional and of little effect.  When Peter preached, the Holy Spirit fell upon the people, he did not need an alter call nor did he have to lay hands on them, it just happened, they had no choice in the matter.  Would it not be great if today's preachers had that anointing?  It's become a numbers/accounting game, a measure of how good was my sermon et al.  God gets a distant second place to the preacher.

I even read a book by Billy Graham where he stated that after 6 months, 60% had fallen away and after 12 month, 90%.  If the God working bit does not happen, infilling of the Holy Spirit, it is but a sham.  It could also be the fallen away could not stomach the falsities of the churches they were referred to.

Quote from: SeekerSA
G4982 σώζω sōzō sode'-zo
From a primary word σως sōs (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Quote
"Deliver."  "Protect."  "Save."  "Preserve."  From WHAT?    Or, if you prefer, TO what?

I think the thing that bugs me most about this whole "It's all good" mentality is that no one seems to understand how deeply God abhorrs sin.  One aspect of the definition you shared above is "heal" or "be (make) whole"  which leaves us with the idea that we (apart from Christ) are NOT whole, but damaged, stained, sick.  Is it your contention that this condition has no consequence?  That in the end God will simply shrug and say, "No biggie"?  Gosh, if that's the case, He sure wasted a lot of time and energy trying to correct His children.

We do not subscribe to an "all good mentality".  I guess that may be your perception of UR.

How can the "sick condition" have eternal consequences in light of what I shared earlier?

It is IMO your observation that all men have, are and will hear the good news now in this temporal life, no?  Well that is not happening.  Does a Muslim in a radical society growing up with anything other than Islam know about Christianity apart from what they learn of Him as merely a prophet in the Quran.  In China, the majority no nothing of Christ likewise in Africa.

The last sentence of your statement above seems to imply that your salvation was in part of your own doing.  Be blessed that this truth has been revealed to you in this lifetime and no you did not choose to follow Christ, He chose you.  We are now the instruments God can use to accomplish His will in spite of ourselves.

Quote from: SeekerSA
Dig deeper, truth shall be revealed. A "saved from" mentality is fire insurance, a "saved into" mentality opens you up for God to reveal Himself fully to you.

Quote from: Enchiridion
Since you don't know me, I can see why you'd make assumptions about me, (it's only reasonable given that you probably have had conversations similar to this more than once)  but I find this glib dismissal a bit off-putting.  Your own definition indicates a potential for peril.  I'm just trying to figure out what this peril is.  Because if there is no peril, there sure are a lot of missionaries who are wasting their time!

Apologies if this came across the way it did, it was not to put you off.

As I mentioned, we are merely instruments to be used by God if He so chooses.  The missionaries are not wasting their time.

Yes we have had conversations many times with those opposing UR.  Your mannerism is not offensive but respectful.

To try and convey my beliefs in one post is impossible.  I will say I did not convert to UR, I never believed what mainstream taught and only this year found out about Universalism.  I always thought I was the 5th wheel as my peers could not see scripture the way I saw it and yes I had a real encounter with Jesus when I became born again.  I was glad to find others saw things the way I saw them but there was much unlearning that had to take place.

The God I have come to know is a loving God and not wrathful.  I have done the rounds at all the Pentecostal churches in my town and in all never found what I was looking for.  Everything I learned came through private study and meditation.  I did however take for granted some things that were taught but never really had peace in my spirit with those things.

Believing in UR requires an open mind and a brand new look at scriptures.  Resistance to change is natural because if what you have been believing for many years now appears a waste of time, that is not so.  If you spend enough time here, you will see that no one here claims to have all the answers.  We are as I like to put it all on our own paths of revelation and enlightenment.  It is ironic that on certain Christian forums, total opposites to Christianity like professed satanists, wicca, hindus etc. are tolerated yet when we preach the Jesus, the Saviour to ALL mankind it is rejected and opposed by Christians.  That should tell you something.

Mainstream has done much to discredit us to a cult yet we follow no single man's teachings or any man, not even Gary.  We all follow Jesus.  Because we believe that ultimately all men will be saved, it is seen as distasteful, strange?   :mshrug:

We can chat more later.  I encourage you to explore some of the other threads here too.

Blessings :handshake:
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shibboleth

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2007, 03:30:59 PM »
Question: If Adam, the son of God, who walked and talked with God face to face was not able to make the 'right choice', then how can 'children of the devil' who are born with an already sinful nature (and blind to God) be expected to do any better?

Of course the answer is that in most cases, they don't.

I often used a similar argument with a preacher who was calvanist in his thinking. I asked him how God could possibly expect us to be sinless when Eve couldn't even resist one temptation. How are we, who have 100's of temptations bombarding us daily, supposed to resist unless holy spirit is giving us the strength to do so? Before I knew UR was true, I was constantly brought back to the garden of Eden to study and contemplate what really happened there. I knew denominations had no answer that made sense or showed me a loving, kind, caring God. Now the "fall" makes perfect sense in light of what we will gain in the end.

Offline willieH

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2008, 03:46:55 AM »
willieH: Hi John... :hithere:

Sorry for the LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG delay in answering this post...  :mblush:

Good questions. It is true that only the saved will enter the Kingdom because I believe that the terms mean the same thing. Beign saved is entering the Kingdom which is the Kingdom of Heaven. So, everyone who is saved enters the Kingdom which is "going to Heaven".

BTW, ...in my observation, ...no one is "going to heaven"... "Heaven" is COME HERE... in the manifestation of the WORD of GOD (JESUS CHRIST) in the flesh...

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The question really is whether everyone will be saved. I believe they will though not in this life or in this present age. God will be All in All so all will be reconciled to Him by entering His Kingdom.


GOD does not BECOME anything other that which HE IS...  which is what your words seem to propose above... This would mean He CHANGES... He does NOT EVER CHANGE... (that which is PERFECT in ALL aspects of being, has no need or necessity to CHANGE)

HE ...IS... ALL in ALL from ETERNAL perspective! 

We are confined to the use of terms concerning TIME, for within IT, we are bound...

Our finite observations are only able to view TIME's manifestations, ...NOT Eternity's...  Eternity needs NO "manifestation" because it already ...IS...

ALL will enter the Kingdom of GOD within the realm of TIME, ...BEFORE... its "expiration" which is found to be the conclusion of THE LAST DAY...

On the LAST DAY takes place, Resurrection (John 6:44) and judgment (John 12:48)...

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The assumption that has been wrongly made in my opinion is that God cannot save after natural death after the resurrection of the wicked dead. I believe that He can and that He will.

Blessings,

John

(By the way, I maintain NO one is RIGHT and NO one is WRONG, we are either veiled or revealed concerning any observation!  And we shall all find out)

This, I agree John, is correct... NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD... only MEN determine a thing IMPOSSIBLE... That is because within FINITE and IMPERFECT observation perspectives, we find ourselves within, and bound by, those limitations...  :pitiful:

The FIRST Resurrection IS taking place within LIFE of the individual which GOD ordains by HIS ELECTION to enter the Kingdom as he/she physically LIVES...

But in Resurrection of the LAST DAY... ALL others shall enter, once judgment (which takes place on the LAST DAY) is complete... and ALL good AND evil, is made KNOWN...

It amazes me how close you and I actually are in belief, but at times the separations appear to be huge...  I guess, ALL things iron themselves out in time...  :dontknow:

Blessings to you brother...  :thumbsup:

PeaCE   :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS  ...name above all names...  ...willieH    :thumbsup:

Offline BenJasher

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 10:27:49 PM »
Wow!
What a great thread. Alot of good responses here. Much meat to chew on.

But back to the original question:

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1) Don't the Bible teach that the unsaved will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? That might not translate into eternal suffering, but it seems to indicate that the wicked will definately perish--being consumed, devoured, and destroyed. In other words, they will die in pain and suffering, but it's their death, or being dead that will last for eternity, right? 2) Do you really believe that all of the billions upon billions upon billions of people who've come and gone on Earth since Adam will one day be in Heaven?

The first question about the lost entering the Kingdom of Heaven:

The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are interchangeable terms. Matthew used the word "Heaven"; everyone else used "God." Matthew was of the frame of mind that the name of God was too holy to pronounce, and therefore used "Heaven" and/or the tetragrammaton (YHWH) where we would use "God." This mindset was common among the Hebrews, especially the better educated, and the Priestly sects. Matthew was a tax gatherer and was probably better educated than your average ignorant fisherman.  I think SeekerSA pointed this out earlier, but with much more detail.

In my own view of things, there is a difference between the Kingdom of God, and say, the New Jerusalem. The Kingdom of God is a term used to signify all that is under the dominion of God Himself. It isn't an esoteric term describing an etheric spiritual dimension of God's plan somewhere way off out in the future. It is a common sense term with a tangible meaning that has to do with life on the street you live on. For there to be a kingdom, there has to be a king who is proactively exercising dominion over something. Quickly, name for me one thing that does not fall under that heading. Saved or unsaved, dead or alive, good looking or ugly; all souls belong to Him. (Ezekiel 18:4) This will be a reality beyond question during the Millenium, when the Kingdom of God will become the ruling factor of life on Earth.

The way you framed your question makes me think that the scripture you were referencing was Revelations 22:15
Quote from: Rev 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This verse of scripture is speaking specifically about The New Jerusalem which, again in my own view of things, is a term used to describe a particular class of people. This particular class of people are to rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years. The dogs and sorcerers and all the rest are those who are to be ruled over. And I can back that up with scripture. But not everyone sees the same thing in those scriptures.

As far as the rest of your question, about death or destruction lasting for eternity; that is best answered by looking into the Greek at the word translated "eternity." You will find that the word there has to do with a finite period of time. But there are many on this board that can address that issue better than I, and probably have already in answer to your post.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 12:08:32 AM by BenJasher »
.. but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, which none of the rulers of this age have known, for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2008, 06:23:29 PM »

1) Don't the Bible teach that the unsaved will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? That might not translate into eternal suffering, but it seems to indicate that the wicked will definately perish--being consumed, devoured, and destroyed. In other words, they will die in pain and suffering, but it's their death, or being dead that will last for eternity, right?


My initial response to this would be that is simply a statement of fact of how things are.   A quite over simplified responce would be that We can be assured that in heaven it will be pure and uncorrupted by evil.   

If 1 Timothy 2:4 is true as written and it does indeed mean that every single human being will enter the kingdom of heaven then what does that mean for the typical thinking that one must choose to believe.

There we have the idea of our power again.   What is mistaken is that apart from christ we must freely choose to serve him or it doesn't  matter.   Well, thats human logic and that logic is for the most part rerasonable.  As far as human reasoning goes, it is logical.  But, if it is true, then there is a contradiction in two scriptures that I can think of right off hand.

John 15:5  "I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Romans 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity intoto God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.

It is a contradiction to say that any choice we make is apart from christ, that statement can gather many other questions, but, I am trying to be brief so that there is not so much to read that the main point is lost.

It is a contradiction if not just plain illogical to see scripture say our flesh is hatred towards God and is not able to be subject to the Law of God and say that our flesh somehow will be willing to come to Christ.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.



 "No one" comes unless Father Draws them and the time of drawing has already been established. 


So what reasonable scriptural conclusion can be reached with all of this?

I believe it means that everyone will one day choose Jesus, but God knows how to direct our feet to make it happen.

riverman

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2008, 09:43:09 PM »
The question really is whether everyone will be saved.

Saved from what?




From sin and death.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Peace to you,

RM



jabcat

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 09:44:20 PM »
 Paul, :gthumbsup: This is helpful and IMO puts it in a reasonable, understandable perspective.  (And 'yes', RM).  Thanks, God's blessing, James.

riverman

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 10:26:27 PM »
One more thought, many folks upon consideration of UR instantly perceive it as a license to sin, if sinning appears to be more desirable to our spirit than the righteousness of Christ than it is obvious that His spirit is not dwelling within (yet).

This is not to say that anyone is exempt from sinning while in the flesh but once we are conceived in His Spirit sinning is not as glamorous, desirable or justifiable as it was in our natural state but instead is recognized as being a miserable failure of our carnal mind being overcome by our (present) weak flesh that leaves one in a state of despair and with a strong sense of helplessness. It is an incredible thing how God uses this pattern not only to draw us closer by the self realization of our own unworthiness but to have us consciously not want to feel this emptyness ever again. Of course most of us do from time to time return to our vomit but as we grow in His spirit these times become fewer and farther between.


Mat 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Ain't it the truth?

The beautiful thing about God's plan is that we all will learn righteousness in His time and our season, if we are not of the elect in this age a provision has been made for us in the next.


Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2Pe 2:9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:2849 (chastised)

G2849
κολάζω
kolazō
kol-ad'-zo
From κόλος kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

Peace to you,

RM


martincisneros

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Re: unsaved will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2008, 02:21:22 AM »
One more thought, many folks upon consideration of UR instantly perceive it as a license to sin, if sinning appears to be more desirable to our spirit than the righteousness of Christ than it is obvious that His spirit is not dwelling within (yet).

This was the concern when the first inclings of justification by faith began coming out of the Reformation.  Lots of pastors and theologians wrote against it, thinking that it would undermine all practical godliness.  When the Pentecostal phenomenon started returning to the Body of Christ, then the charges were that nobody read their Bibles who were associated with the Pentecostal experience, that while they were busy experiencing God, they weren't out taking care of the poor, orphans, widows, etc.  All forms of the Pentecostal type of ministry, interpretation, and style of worship are thought to be an expression of ordering God around.

It doesn't seem like any area of God's restoration of the revelation of His grace or His return to how certain things were done in cooperation with His Spirit in previous ages is going to go unnoticed by the Accusers of the brethren.  There are lots of books out lamenting the fact that there have been no Great Awakenings in recent history, not realizing that really really big revival type of flows tend to only last about 42 months, whereas a "Reformation," which is what we're actually in the midst of across the spectrum in the Body of Christ from Anglican to Word of Faith -- a Reformation can apparently take 250 to 500 years before you're really able to ACCURATELY JUDGE the type of FRUIT that's come out of it, and have enough of what everybody was saying on archive to form a coherent theory of the BIG PICTURE of what God was doing, saying, accomplishing, etc.  Who was a true prophet vs. something else, etc.

But during a Reformation, apart from obvious ubrupt changes in doctrine, the majority of the changes aren't really noticeable to those living through it because sooo many of the changes are sooo subtle and over a really long period of time.  An example would be state supported Churches.  Very few countries still have that.  And it was about 150 or more years before the doctrine of the Reformation of "Separation of Church and State" really began to take hold in the culture.  People were sooo sick of getting arrested for voicing a different interpretation, a vision for a new world, etc., but it was 3 to 5 generations (depending on how many years you interpret a generation to be) before the U.S. government created the wall of separation between Church and state that was meant to wall the state out of the Churches activities.  And obviously, other countries started following the example in due course, though not all countries have done so yet.