Author Topic: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism  (Read 8638 times)

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Offline 97531

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Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« on: August 09, 2007, 12:29:28 PM »
Article by Gary Amirault

There are many proofs for the wonderful teaching of the salvation of all mankind through the work of the cross by Jesus the Messiah. We have hundreds of them on our internet site

A good starting point is the scholars corner.

There is a rather unique proof on a site that has invented a lot of material negative to this glorious teaching. That site is CARM, Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry   It is run by a Charismatic Calvinist named Matt Slick.

CARM is one of the largest Christian apologetics sites on the Internet. It hosts dozens of discussion boards

One can discuss just about anything there. One can discuss astrology, New Age, Satanism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventist and Christian cults of all kinds. One can discuss theological concepts and doctrines of all kinds. All religions from Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Bahi, Christadelphian, Free Masonry, Eastern Orthodox, Christian Scientist, Oneness Pentecostalism, Roman Catholicism, etc can be discussed. As a matter of fact, they have separate discussion rooms for each of these groups. There are separate discussion boards discussing abortions, Atheism, UFO's, and pregnancy. One can argue just about any theological concept and position ranging from Arminian, Calvinist, Word of Faith, etc. All is fair and game at Carm including witchcraft. All except one topicUniversalism, the teaching that Jesus Christ is indeed the "Savior of the world," as the Scriptures plainly state. (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14)

Read full article here.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 02:35:03 PM by SeekerSA »
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PaulTheJesusFreak

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2007, 06:51:32 AM »
Wow, what a wonderful article!

 And, yes, I have read a LOT of stuff on that CARM website and I am very upset that he has Universal Salvation banned from discussion there. Another website I go to has that website banned from being linked to or talked about -- but not for the same reason I don't go to that site anymore.  :thumbdown:

 I'm in prayer for that man.

 The Scholars Corner was great, I've read that page several times lol, as well as the tons of other information listed. I love this place more everyday!!  :happygrin: :bgdance:


albertx46

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 02:46:47 PM »
The reason for UR being banned in CARM's discussion boards is simple: They are afraid the true teachings of the Bible would detract from the man-made priesthood system and transcendence of the church.

Further more, UR's "Blessed Hope" and the extension of salvation totally shatter Calvinism's narrow view of the select few and easily threaten the authenticity of their creeds that have been taught for long.

I hope Matt doesn't mean to deceive; he is just not yet exposed to the proper information like most of Christendom.

The scholar's corner is indeed loaded with convincing arguments and historical facts that strongly uphold UR theology. I specially pay homage to the collection of attestation of our early church fathers, who were close to original documents and by whom Christianity has survived and been passed down through generations.

alihaymeg

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 04:26:47 AM »
I very much appreciate the love and gentle manner in which you speak even about those who oppose the truth of God's wonderful plan of restoration for all things. It shows that you truly know the heart of God.

I love all of the Tentmaker resources, and I had never heard of the teaching until my father turned me on to it. Finally a glimpse of the truth that my heart always knew was there. All one requires to believe and receive this message is to believe that God is who He says He is. He is perfect love. There is no darkness in Him at all. He is a loving Father, not a bloodthirsty tyrant. All punishment is for purification, and it has to make sense. Eternal torment makes no sense.

All of this written proof is invaluable, but there is only one way to be convinced. The Holy Spirit of God is the only worthy teacher, and He is the voice that has revealed the truth of this message to me. No matter what we find as proof or refutation His voice is the one we must heed.

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 06:45:05 AM »
The only reason is because the only way to disprove UR is to poorly translate the bible, or twist and make the scruptures more complicated than they really are.  If you think about it, the bible is really the history of the fall of man, Gods mercy and the salvation of humanity past, present and future.  For example, if you see aion as meaning Eternity, that would be a contradiction with "Every knee shall bow down and acknowledge Christ as their savior".(Not exact words, but the same point)  But if one understand aion as meaning age, that makes sense.  But our buddy St. Jerome made a little oopsie, which kinda caused more problems than necessary

Offline marie glen

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 11:33:57 PM »
I simply hAd to copy and paste all those great verses in your article, for ready reference! "It is impossible for God to lie"!
- Is God's GReat Plan of Salvation great enough to save all? To believe otherwise is to blaspheme His good and perfect nature! And perfection makes NO mistakes. How do we get into the "Lamb's Book of Life", according to Paul (and Jesus!) it is by "believing". Exactly when, does anyone hear the notorious words "those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will go to the 2nd death"? After all have experienced being resurrected, and after all have witnessed what must be a very long day of the examination of all things.. a long 'day' of review on all human history, etc, as to what went wrong.. what worked out well and what didn't (and never can).. WHO, after all that, isn't going to "believe"?
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
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- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/8905465 - Sinead O'connor singing psalms 33, 91

Offline battle axe

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 08:28:13 AM »
Im greatly disturbed by this comments fro mthe CARM website, it staes this & how can we say that forever & ever is not forever?  Am i missing something or am I deluded that if the scriptures say forever yet im thinking otherwise, how can we twist forever to not been forever?  My logic has to ask, but still my heart says for sure punishment is a period.

Im just basing what im saying there to these texts > Clearly, the phrase "forever and ever" is a correct translation of the Greek ""eis tous aionas ton aionon -- forever and ever" Every instance of the phrase shows eternality.
 
But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3 is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
 
The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.
 
Universalism is incorrect because not all will be saved because:
 


"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

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Offline battle axe

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 09:04:59 AM »
AND  > Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion," which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion," which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
 
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
 
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out:
 1.aion - , - age, world A."for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1

2.aionion, aionios - - eternal A."aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude


 :eek:    Forever is forever how from the above evidence can we say it anyother way?
Mayb the inner witness of the HS tells us otherwise, but with so many written proof texts of forever meaning forever in the bible how did u ever twist it to an age of time?   I know ur heart because it is mine too & i hope all will be saved :HeartThrob:
But this evidence is substantial :o

I hope someone is brave enough or man enough to challenge what is shared there in CARM
If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

Offline misszoolander

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 09:52:49 AM »
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," -

The words "will be tormented" in Greek is  βασανισθήσονται,  βάσανος or basanos (transliterated) refers to the word touchstone.

"touch·stone  (tchstn)
1. A hard black stone, such as jasper or basalt, formerly used to test the quality of gold or silver by comparing the streak left on the stone by one of these metals with that of a standard alloy.
2. An excellent quality or example that is used to test the excellence or genuineness of others"

It is well with my soul.

Offline misszoolander

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 10:23:29 AM »
AND  > Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion," which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion," which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
 
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
 
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out:
 1.aion - , - age, world A."for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."1

2.aionion, aionios - - eternal A."aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude


 :eek:    Forever is forever how from the above evidence can we say it anyother way?
Mayb the inner witness of the HS tells us otherwise, but with so many written proof texts of forever meaning forever in the bible how did u ever twist it to an age of time?   I know ur heart because it is mine too & i hope all will be saved :HeartThrob:
But this evidence is substantial :o

I hope someone is brave enough or man enough to challenge what is shared there in CARM

I will copy and paste Youngs literal Translation of most of the verses provided by CARM. This translation is as close to Greek as you can get. "The Bible text designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation by Robert Young who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation that attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings. The text was scanned from a reprint of the 1898 edition as published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids Michigan. The book is still in print and may be ordered from Baker Book House. Obvious errors in spelling or inconsistent spellings of the same word were corrected in the computer edition of the text.
"

Rom. 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -- God is indefinite when it comes to time, time is his, he is not of time

1 Tim. 6:16 16 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen. - Same as above

1 Pet. 5:10 10 And the God of all grace, who did call you to His age-during glory in Christ Jesus, having suffered a little, Himself make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle [you]; - Indefinite glory, unknown amount of glory. Who can put a figure or an estimation to Gods glory?

Heb. 9:1414 how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? - Same as above.

John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.- Life for indefinite amount of time.

Age during meaning? Indefinite amount of time.Unknown amount of time



It is well with my soul.

Offline battle axe

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 10:32:00 AM »
Excellent and perfect replies to what I thouhgt had pretty much nailed it,  Thx for your kindness thats really something to chew on meat worthy of digesting all the way down ;)   meanwhile something struck me a good chord about if it was just our choice and up to us then our salvation is dependent on works, but Grace is something we dont deserve but we get amen!  Amazing grace could ring no better than in fellowships that thank God and delight in the Lords great love to all mankind. Thankyou again so much have a great weekend
If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

Offline misszoolander

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 10:32:14 AM »
BA,

I recommend you read some books on the topic to help you understand how UR is scriptural, rather then us just "twisting" words around. I know how hard it can be when you have just broken out of traditional Christian Theology, however when we read the bible sometimes we look through the eyes of what we have been taught, rather then what is really the truth.

Hope beyond hell by Gerry Beauchemin - http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/ free ebook online

The inescapable love of God by Thomas Talbott.

Universal Salvation? The debate by Thomas Talbott.

Razing hell by Sharon L Baker.



It is well with my soul.

Offline battle axe

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 10:35:34 AM »
THANKYOU AGAIN!!  :HeartThrob:
If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

Offline misszoolander

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 10:43:43 AM »
No problem brother, thank you for asking questions. If we are too believe in UR we can not simply ignore questions :Peace2:

Asking questions is great, it shows you care.
It is well with my soul.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2013, 03:52:34 PM »
IMO, If no amount of good works can save us and only the free gift of God can,
and if God wants and desires ALL to be saved, (which he does)
and no man comes to the Father without Christ drawing(dragging) them to Him,
and like the Bible says, "God is the author and finisher of our faith"
How can we even be responsible for not coming to Jesus in this life -
especially since the few that have heard the gospel at all have heard a warped version of it
and many (all)have had an upbringing that literally requires divine intervention
before they would know the Lord.
The brothers and sisters of Jesus had the same basic upbringing and parents as Jesus had
but even that was not enough. :Peace2: :2c:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline lomarah

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2013, 04:46:52 PM »
Yes battle axe and there are also many threads on the forum which talk about these things as well. Just search aionios and I'm sure you will find lots. :)

Another great book (which completely did it for me) was "At the End of the Ages" by Bob Evely. He wrote down every instance where the word aion and aionios were used, and it is very obvious they do not always mean forever and ever. (Actually imo I think that aionios is more of a descriptive word rather than a length of time, but I could be wrong on that.)
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2013, 05:13:52 PM »
IMO, If no amount of good works can save us and only the free gift of God can,
and if God wants and desires ALL to be saved, (which he does)
and no man comes to the Father without Christ drawing(dragging) them to Him,
and like the Bible says, "God is the author and finisher of our faith"
How can we even be responsible for not coming to Jesus in this life -
especially since the few that have heard the gospel at all have heard a warped version of it
and many (all)have had an upbringing that literally requires divine intervention
before they would know the Lord.
The brothers and sisters of Jesus had the same basic upbringing and parents as Jesus had
but even that was not enough. :Peace2: :2c:

I believe, often this is said, "and no man comes to the Father without Christ drawing(dragging) them to Him,..."  incorrectly.
I only mention it out of love. :HeartThrob: :cloud9: :dsunny:
"Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 14:6  "I am the Way," replied Jesus, "and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 07:15:57 PM »
"and I, (Jesus) if I be lifted up (crucified/resurrected) shall draw(drag) all men to me."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2013, 07:41:40 PM »
Don't know what to say. I knew that, and yet the two verses say something different? O do they? Something to look into, perhaps. Thanks for the lead. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2013, 07:45:53 PM »
Just a thot. Jesus became a life giving spirit after the cross. He couldnt draw prior so only the Father could. Just thinkin out loud

Offline sheila

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2013, 07:56:30 PM »
 i really liked your post,Ded2.......right on!  also add to that the murder and corruption of the 'church?' over the last

  2000 yrs..the hypocrisy and corruption.   I think it no wonder people are stumbled were God is concerned. all the

 schisms,denominations.........

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2013, 07:59:25 PM »
32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."
33 Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying.
 
What do you think? I believe that after He gave His life, the Father began what was to be, that dragging. And redhotmagma, I believe your thought is good as well. :dsunny:

I also believe the translators should have used the word drag, because that's (imo) is how most of it gets done. :)
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2013, 08:01:01 PM »
i really liked your post,Ded2.......right on!  also add to that the murder and corruption of the 'church?' over the last

  2000 yrs..the hypocrisy and corruption.   I think it no wonder people are stumbled were God is concerned. all the

 schisms,denominations.........

 :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline lomarah

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2013, 08:01:49 PM »
Yes, confusing is an understatement for what it's like trying to seek God throught the church system. I went to a bible university and came out more confused than ever.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Unique Proof For The Doctrine Of Universalism
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2013, 08:10:52 PM »
I can't remember the actual study but the gist of it was that the longer people attended Bible college or theological seminary, the LESS likely they were to believe God existed and that the Bible could be trusted for spiritual information. :dontknow:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"