THINK.

[whyiloveitaly]

We're all going to go through the fire.

Bri

[whyiloveitaly]

Peacetroll:

The reason one would suffer and die for the Gospel is because loving and dying is far better than living this life. If we have our hope set on living this life, we are not placing our hope in God's presence.

This life is not important (although many will say that it is... human rights, protecting unborn babies, animal rights, etc.). If we look at how easily and how quickly we all die, and the enormous number of people who have died "uselessly," we understand that it is not this life that is important.

But until we feel something of God and His Love towards us, the only thing we have to hold onto is this life.

He wants us to let go of this life. That is when we find true life in Him.

We have always depended on Him. Even your very breathing right now depends solely upon Him.

We often forget that though.

Love,
Bri

[Dante]

Peacetroll,...Men have died for much less!!!!

The Nazi's were willing to die for an idea that,... all men were NOT all EQUAL.

YET, you question why the apostles would die to get out the GREAT NEWS, that the WHOLE WORLD would be saved??

First off:
Your premise is flawed. You are weighting unlimited salvation against, limited salvation.
If we are right, then LIMITED SALVATION never existed. If you are right, then UNLIMITED SALVATION never existed. So in the context of your argument, you must weight UNLIMITED SALVATION against something other than a theory of something that does not exist. Since UNLIMITED and LIMITED SALVATION cannot occur in the same framework of thought.


Secondly:
"Or does not the potter (GOD) have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common (DISHONOR) use? " (Rom. 9:21).

Read the verse above. If this is true, then God created man JUST THE WAY HE IS, and consigns the same vessel of DISHONOR to ETERNAL condemnation. God made a vessel for DISHONOR, and then consigns it to ETERNAL condemnation. To HELL or whatever for all ETERNITY!! (Do I misunderstand you?)

WHAT OPTION DID THAT VESSEL EVER HAVE??? TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT HE WAS CREATED TO BE???


Thirdly:
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. (Prov. 16:4).

So, according to you (I guess), God made the WICKED for the day of EVIL and is now going to, consign the EVIL he himself made, to ETERNAL CONDEMNATION??? Does this ALL SEEM FAIR TO YOU? God is going to make ALL THINGS after HIS COUNSEL and then send them to some kind of ETERNAL DEATH OR TORTURE?? (Am I reading you right?)

Fourthly:
Jesus didn't die because of any other reason, but because that is what the FATHER WANTED.

Isaiah 46:10  God will do all His pleasure
Ephesians 1:11  God works all after the counsel of His will


I am not sure what, you believe Peacetroll, is going to happen to those who do not believe in Christ. But if you believe in some kind of HELL. ETERNAL DEATH OR TORTURE.
THEN,......

I hope you see the error of your flawed logic.
Peace out brother.

[studier]

We're all going to go through the fire.

Bri

That is ambigious.

[Bethany]

We're all going to go through the fire.

Bri

We're all going to go through the second death?????????? That really undercuts faith.

Bethany

[studier]

We're all going to go through the fire.

Bri

We're all going to go through the second death?????????? That really undercuts faith.

Bethany

That is why I said it is ambigious. Is (s)he talking about Lake of Fire, or the fire that comes through tribulation? The Lake of Fire versus the Refiner's Fire.

Simple people equate refiner's fire as the Lake of Fire, ignoring the fac that...

PREPOSITION
Revelation 20:14b
The lake of fire is the second death.
The Lake of Fire = The Second Death.
 
Revelation 2:12   
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6-7
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

They miss the part that those who have their part in the first resurrection, are raised prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

[bobf]

Why would the martyers of God go through this if, all children of Light, and children of Darkness will recieve salvation?

To bring the children of darkness into the Light so they can be saved.

[whyiloveitaly]

God is fire. He is purifying us now. He is our destination. He will purge out all dross. The thoughts of man will be brought to light in Him. He will expose all and we will know that He is God.

Love to all,
Bri

[Peacetroll]

 If all humans will be saved, both those of the light and those of darkness, and God choses whom He choses, there is no reason to even go out and tell people anything, let alone suffer and die, sometimes with your family members, to spread the gospel.
 What is the point if all of the world, light and dark will be blended in Christ again.

What did God say of what is happening here and now.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

And what is the end declared in the beginning?

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 The martyrs did what they did as workers in the field, for the sake of the sheep.

[bobf]

If all humans will be saved, both those of the light and those of darkness, and God choses whom He choses, there is no reason to even go out and tell people anything...

Sure there is, to lead those in darkness out of darkness.

let alone suffer and die, sometimes with your family members, to spread the gospel.
 What is the point if all of the world, light and dark will be blended in Christ again.

They won't be blended, there will be no more night (Rev 21:25).

And what is the end declared in the beginning?

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

That's not the whole end.  God divided the Light from the darkness, and those sitting in darkness will see the Light and come to it.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2  For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

[studier]

Amen Bob.

[Peacetroll]

 Everyone in this world is in the darkness. Jesus Christ is the light that came into the world. The people who believe in the world have seen that light.

John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.


Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Who is going to come to that light?Who are the people who dwell in the shadow, but are not of the darkness?

Isiah 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

[bobf]

Who are the people who dwell in the shadow, but are not of the darkness?

Those who sit IN darkness do so because they were OF that darkness: "Such as sit IN darkness...because they rebelled against the words of God and condemned His counsel."  Those who KEEP MY SAYINGS are likened to a man whose house is built on the Rock (i.e. they are of the Light).  Those who do not KEEP MY SAYINGS are likened to a man their house is built on the sand (i.e. they are OF the darkness).  So these people ("the redeemed of the Lord") were first IN and OF the darkness.

Psalms 107:10  Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: 12  Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.

But God leads them out of the darkness when they come to the Light so they are no longer of or in the darkness.

Psalms 107:13  Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. 14  He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.

[Bethany]

PT-

If you don't mind me saying- your struggle seems to surpass the arguement of UR. I don't want to assume too much- but it seems to be more of a struggle with salvation in general. Just something to think about. If that is true believe me- we have all been there...

Bethany

[Dante]

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

You are correct Peacetroll that God will do ALL HIS GOOD PLEASURE and WILL. Since it says:

Isaiah 46:10  God will do all His pleasure
Ephesians 1:11  God works all after the counsel of His will

And what is the Father's Good Pleasure, WILL and Desire???

1 Timothy 2:4  God will have all to be saved
1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth


Right here you have THE answer. God WILLS AND DESIRES SOMETHING. And IT is ALWAYS DONE!!! What does he desire?? That the WHOLE WORLD IS SAVED. Will IT be done??? YES!!!
GODS WILL= ALL SAVED
Will God's Will ALWAYS BE DONE? YES!!! According to the WORD OF GOD.
Hence,........ALL WILL BE SAVED!!

Who Peacetroll, will fulfill the WILL, Desire and Pleasure of the Father???

John 8:29  He (Jesus) always does what pleases His Father

Who is Jesus, Peacetroll??

John 4:42  Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4:14  Jesus is the Savior of the world
Colossians 1:15  Jesus is the firstborn of all creation
Luke 2:10  Jesus will be joy to all people


But Peacetroll, is Jesus ABLE to do what the Father WILL'S??

Hebrews 7:25  Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
John 12:32  Jesus draws all to Himself
Ephesians 4:10  Jesus will fill all things


And what will Jesus DO with ALL that his Father has given him Peacetroll??

John 17:2  Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him

Who or what has been given to Jesus by the Father Peacetroll?? ALL things and peoples or just some things and peoples??

Hebrews 1:2  He is heir of all things
John 3:35  All has been given into His hand
John 13:3  The Father gave Him all things


But Peacetroll, Who will be condemned and who will be saved??

Romans 5:15-21  In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1 Corinthians 15:22  In Adam all die, in Christ all live
 
What will the end result of Jesus' work and God the Father's WILL be???

Revelation 5:13  All creation seen praising God
1 Corinthians 15:28  God will be all in all
Romans 8:19-21  Creation set at liberty
Colossians 1:20  All reconciled unto God
1 Corinthians 4:5  All will have praise of God
Hebrews 8:11-12  All will know God
Titus 2:11  Grace has appeared to all
Romans 11:26  All Israel will be saved
Ephesians 1:10  All come into Him at the fullness of times
1 Corinthians 15:26  Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
Philippians 2:9-11  Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord


Just the fact that I am putting effort and time into telling you of the GREAT NEWS.
Should be reason enough for you to understand that telling the world, that the WHOLE WORLD WILL BE SAVED, is truly a worthy expedition. And yes, men are willing to die or be tortured to get the truth out about God.

Not to mention, that that is what the Father has commanded us to do. If the Father commands us to do anything we SHOULD be willing to DIE for what he wants from us. Since he is the one who we owe EVERYTHING TO in the first place!!!

My Father commands me to do something. He has saved me and the WHOLE WORLD. That!! In and of itself SHOULD be reason enough.

[whyiloveitaly]

The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart.


Bri

[hope]

Peacetroll said: There would be no point.  Absolutely NO point to suffer and allow their families to suffer so much if in the end, all will have clarity and complete understanding anyhow.

It would be like trying to make a difference in a dream, when in a few moments  you'll wake up anyhow and understand everything crystal clear as will the others characters in your dream, therefore it's only common sense to see the fallacy in such motivation as you propose.

 The point is that by knowing the truth people can be saved from darkened minds.  Paul spoke of unbelievers having their minds darkened by ignorance.  Because unbelievers minds are dark, devoid of light---they think God is their enemy or they deny the existence of God altogether. Many people in the church act as if this darkness of mind only has repercussions in the afterlife.  But what about the repercussions of a dark mind here and now?  Didn't Jesus say himself he was concerned about the quality of life we experience here and now? He said, "I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly." We need to be "saved" all right...Just look at our world. Look around at anyone who is going through their third or fourth divorce. Or anyone hooked on narcotics and can't break free. Or anyone struggling with suicidal thoughts day in and day out. Or a single mom trying to raise her three kids all alone on minimum wage. When people go through these things and they don't know that God loves them and that he came for them, that his presence is available to them, then life on Earth can be a living hell.

What do we need to be saved from??  From darkened minds.  When he shines his light in us and the light begins to penetrate our minds then we know him and what he did for us.  That changes everything.  We have peace. We have hope. We have joy in this world even when the mountains are crashing all around us.  If you've ever been through any trial like that then you know it's worth it to share the gospel with others, because you know that knowing the love of Christ in the here and now makes all the difference in the world.

You don't want people to live through hellish circumstances of life without knowing that he has given us hope and joy.  When they hear the truth then that joy and peace can be a reality for them even in the worst circumstances.  If you've ever seen anyone suffer, then you know it's worth it.  That's why the apostles layed down their lives and were sawn in two, or crucified.  Paul said to Timothy "From infancy you have known the holy scriptures...which are able to save your soul (mind)." Our souls have to know the truth in order to dispel the darkness.  Hearing the gospel shows people the truth.  Isn't it worth it to tell the gospel so that someone else can live with peace and hope in this life and know that God loves them instead of living their whole lives lonely and afraid thinking they were never loved? They would realize when their life ended that they were wrong their whole lives---Surprise, God loved them all along, but what a lot of years of suffering and agony struggling along without the love of God. 

[Kratos]

Hope,

I agree with what you wrote about the here and now and the darkened mind. I, also, believe that there is an effect in the age to come. Being born again just puts us on the path to becoming like Him as we are conformed to His image and likeness. This is a process and no one will avoid this process.

Those who come to God in this life start this process now, but those who wait until the age to come will go throught the same process then. In fact, I think that the process now must be much easier than it will be in the age to come or there would not be so much urgency to compel others to come to Christ while still in this life.

A lot of the weeping and gnashing of teeth will be when many find out like Esau that they sold their birthright for a bowl of soup or for carnal pleasures.

I really do not think we have any idea how much worse it will be to wait until the next age to bow the knee to Christ. As believers in UR we are so blessed to know that all will eventually come in that we naturally diminish the importance of when we come in and this is a mistake it appears.

John

[hope]

I, also, believe that there is an effect in the age to come. Being born again just puts us on the path to becoming like Him as we are conformed to His image and likeness. This is a process and no one will avoid this process.


Kratos, I agree about the process.  As far as what all the process of correction includes after this life, that I'm inconclusive about.  For me it suffices to know that any correction that my Father hands out to anyone will be for the purpose of correction and teaching.  I don't know if this is how anyone will feel during that corrective age, but it always helps me to know when I am going through a trial that it will result in good (inside me) and it won't last forever.  Knowing the heart of God makes all the difference.  But I think when the mainstream church relegates salvation to the arena where being saved or not saved means you're either going to heaven or hell (correction) then they miss the main point of what salvation is supposed to be.  Salvation is for changing us now, giving us the quality of life our heavenly Father desires for us.  I think sometimes we can forget that when we talk about issues like salvation.  So many times it seems to be about the "ever after".  Maybe that's why it's so hard for unbeleivers to relate? Just some thoughts./color]

[hope]

hope wrote: From infancy you have known the holy scriptures...which are able to save your soul

Whoops---I need to make a correction myself!  The scripture where Paul was speaking to Timothy says, "from infancy you have know the holy scriptures...which are able to make you wise for salvation."  I accidentally blended that with the scripture from the book of James which says to receive the word "which is able to save your soul(s)".  Same topic, but two different scriptures!

[Dante]

God is not running damage control,..........Right?? Since John 17:2  Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him and John 13:3  The Father gave Him all things

So, there is no immediacy to a person becoming born again or of God or whatever,...right? Since, 1 Timothy 2:4 says: God will have all to be saved?

God has the whole of creation under his control,.........Right??? Since Ephesians 1:11 says: "God works all after the counsel of His will".


I respect what you (Hope and Kratos) are saying and I agree that the light brightens darkened minds, but if I read you correctly, you are stating the importance of most humans believing in the here and now.

To me it seems that all of the saving, is UP TO GOD, and not us. Ephesians 1:10  All come into Him at the fullness of times


None of us can cause anyone to believe in God, The Truth, or Universal Salvation.
Only God can do this and only when HE desires to do so. In fact, only God can do anything with any lasting relevance. Of course he uses US as a vehicle to what the "Ends" are, but does he really NEED "US"??
I think NOT.
Does he choose to use us. Yes!

God calls,.........then the "Called" respond.
God "chooses", from the "Called".
And from "The Chosen", there are the select few, that are selected to be enlightened.
But,....But,....this is ALL OF GOD.
No man can save another. There is nothing we can do to SAVE anyone. It is ALL in God's divine plan to do AS HE WILLS.

Proverbs 16:9  Man devises, God directs his steps
Proverbs 19:21  Man devises, but God's counsel stands
Psalms 33:15  God fashions all hearts
Psalms 90:3  God turns man to destruction then says "return"

Evil and unbelief serve a very important purpose in this world. God is using (IMHO) this world to show man the difference between Good and Evil.

Quotations from the Bible: via L. Ray Smith.
"…an experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man…" (Ecc. 1:13,
"…I [God] will raise up EVIL against thee…" (II Sam. 12:11).
"I [God] created the waster to DESTROY" (Isa. 54:16).
"The Lord has made…the WICKED for the day of EVIL" (Prov. 16:4).
"…I [God] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great DESTRUCTION (Jer. 4:6).
God told a "lying spirit" to "…go forth, and do so [lie]" (I Kings 22:22).
"He [God] turned their heart to HATE His people…" (Psalm 105:25).
"Behold I [God] frame EVIL against you…" (Jer. 18:11).
"For God locks up all together in STUBBORNNESS [that's an evil]…" (Rom. 11:32).
"…shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts… go and SMITE Amalek… DESTROY… SLAY both man and woman, infant and suckling…" (I Sam. 15:2-3).
"…God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe A LIE" (II Thes. 2:11).

God has a plan and that plan includes "Most" of men "Not believing" in the "Here and Now". God rose up Pharaoh for that very day,........for a reason. It was, at the very least, to show CONTRAST of good and evil (Among other reasons).

That is why God planted the tree of GOOD and evil in the Garden in the first place.
Knowing that man would partake of it. It was God's plan for mankind to sink into the knowledge of Good and Evil, by taking part of the Tree. For if our ancestors had never partaken of that knowledge, there would have never had been any "Contrast". We would have only known the Glory of God. Which would have seemed "The norm" and nothing special. Since we would have had nothing to gauge God's Goodness against. 

This world is a classroom, of sorts, to show the Divine Goodness of God. Our bodies and this life is only temporary (We are Tents). A kind of "Matrix", if you will, to teach us a very significant lesson.
And that lesson is that Evil is useless, worthless, destructive and in it's essence,......hopeless and fruitless. Once this lesson is learned, what is the rest of the lesson????
To lean not unto our own understanding, but unto God's. Since even we don't know what is best for us. God is the ONLY one who knows what is Good and Best for us ALL! 
Now if we learn this lesson, we go on to submit our entire WILL unto God. To become "Robots" or "Sheep", (if you will) for Christ.
To submit every SINGLE THOUGHT and DESIRE to him!

YET,....this does not mean that speaking the truth of the word of God is not "Worth Dying  For". In fact, it makes it that much MORE, worth dying for! To be part of the "lesson plan".  We are told to spread the Good News to the masses by the Father. Is our life that important to "Not give it up"??? NO! It is important for us to give it up, if need be! To give our very lives to help teach mankind the lessons that God IS giving. And of course, we are not doing it, but Christ though us.

In giving up our lives. What would we be losing??? Since to LIVE is CHRIST, and to DIE is GAIN. We are but a blink in time. We are temps, that God uses to enlighten his "planned group" to the knowledge of the truth. We are from dust and to dust we shall return. So what is the loss of one of us. NOTHING. Since we will all put on immortality in the end. This is not our REAL world. Our Father's Kingdom is our REAL world.

It is true that anyone who is not on the road of Salvation in this life WILL take part in the Lake of Fire. BUT, is that a bad thing??
I do not believe so. Since anything of God cannot be bad in its ends. It may not be a pleasurable experience, but it WILL be a much needed one!
Is this life a pleasurable experience?? I do not believe so (At least not a lot of the time). But it is a much needed one!
Either way, mankind will come to the knowledge of the truth.
Every man woman and child will learn the much needed lesson. And that is that GOD and GOD only has the right answers, the truth, and the ultimate knowledge to direct mankind's lives and destinies to PURE Contentment and more importantly a continuing knowledge and relationship with the one being in the Universe who can make our lives worth living.

Once we all learn this lesson, we will all walk hand in hand and side by side (Mindfully) with our Creator, Father God.
This of course will never be expressed FULLY in our lives here on Earth, because of our situation this is an impossibility for the time being. But, I believe, it should be the guiding point to direct us.

Giving up our every desire to allow our minds to hold "THE EVERY DESIRE OF GOD", should be our ultimate goal in life. And that includes that not all will be saved in the here and now (Since God does all his good pleasure, when he decides to do it). BUT, that ALL WILL BE SAVED as a final result (All will come to the knowledge of the truth). And that GOD and GOD only has control over the ULTIMATE FATE OF MANKIND (Which is Salvation to all, by and through Jesus Christ). Once we understand THIS, we can grow in a certain peace and contentment.



My take on the whole ball of wax, in a nutshell. 

[jabcat]

  Dante...agreed!  Sharing parts of your post as a followup to a study we did last night...thanks, God's blessing.

[hope]

Dante says: To lean not unto our own understanding, but unto God's. Since even we don't know what is best for us. God is the ONLY one who knows what is Good and Best for us ALL! 


Yes, I agree...I believe that coming to know that is the salvation of our minds.  And I do believe that all come to him in their own proper time that he has foreordained, some now and the others later. However, I don't think that precludes us feeling sorrow for those who suffer until they do come to know him. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and basically said "how I longed to gather you in my arms as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you wouldn't let me. Now your house is left to you desolate."  He knew that their eyes were darkened and they couldn't see who he was, yet he still grieved over the trial they would go through even though in the end it would bring about a good result. I was saying that sharing the gospel is worth it...that's the point I was making because the truth brings people to the place that they trust that God knows what is best and that his heart is good and that he loves us.  That is the understanding, the light that dispels the darkness. I was addressing the point that peacetroll said that if UR is true then suffering for preaching the gospel as Paul and other apostles did wouldn't be worth it.  I was saying that yes it is worth it because when people hear the truth their lives change here and now and they know God's peace and love now. That's before we even begin to talk about the hereafter.  Even if the results were only for this life, then yes even then sharing the truth would be worth it.  And yes we speak it, and yes only God gives the grace for people to understand.  I totally agree.

[jabcat]

Dante says: To lean not unto our own understanding, but unto God's. Since even we don't know what is best for us. God is the ONLY one who knows what is Good and Best for us ALL! 


Yes, I agree...I believe that coming to know that is the salvation of our minds.  And I do believe that all come to him in their own proper time that he has foreordained, some now and the others later. However, I don't think that precludes us feeling sorrow for those who suffer until they do come to know him. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and basically said "how I longed to gather you in my arms as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you wouldn't let me. Now your house is left to you desolate."  He knew that their eyes were darkened and they couldn't see who he was, yet he still grieved over the trial they would go through even though in the end it would bring about a good result. I was saying that sharing the gospel is worth it...that's the point I was making because the truth brings people to the place that they trust that God knows what is best and that his heart is good and that he loves us.  That is the understanding, the light that dispels the darkness. I was addressing the point that peacetroll said that if UR is true then suffering for preaching the gospel as Paul and other apostles did wouldn't be worth it.  I was saying that yes it is worth it because when people hear the truth their lives change here and now and they know God's peace and love now. That's before we even begin to talk about the hereafter.  Even if the results were only for this life, then yes even then sharing the truth would be worth it.  And yes we speak it, and yes only God gives the grace for people to understand.  I totally agree.

Amen!  Makes a lot of sense.  These last couple of post are really helpful to me personally as God works on taking me now beyond the initial (blessed) realization of UR...for once He shows us that, then there's a whole lot of other (good) re-learning to do...the real messages of scripture and life that orthodoxy didn't teach us.  Thanks!  God's blessing.

[whyiloveitaly]

Many thanks, Dante! We really are instruments in the Maker's hands. So true.

I was thinking this morning how people get so irate when someone suggests that God controls our lives. The flesh does not want to be controlled, and neither do most of us "Christians." And some will respond, "well then, are we just robots??!?"

Yep. Part of God's machinery. Even though our flesh doesn't like that idea.
We have all been bought with a price, and we are not our own.

That's certainly NOT "the American dream."

However, the flesh is still there, and it's in us all. But Christ is arising in us, here a little, there a little.

Oh, that the daystar will arise in my heart today!

Blessings to ya!
Brian