Author Topic: I need help  (Read 3363 times)

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Offline KathyB

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I need help
« on: July 26, 2013, 01:10:02 AM »
This week I'm camping at a church camp with friends/family that believe in annihilation. I've been so excited with the truth of universalism I've been sharing. But they are quote disturbed and concerned for me because the Bible is clear in Revelation 20:7-10 that the wicked get destroyed along with the devil. Also being told it is very dangerous to tell people there is another chance after death. I have just finished reading Hope Beyond Hell and can't find where this was dealt with. Can someone please help me?
Kathy

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: I need help
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2013, 01:31:54 AM »
Hi KathyB,

Let me just say that through past experience, no Scripture, rhyme or reason will change their mind. Rather its more like pouring gasoline on a fire. Of course this is not surprising, they just have not the eyes to see or the heart to question.

What I have found, that actions speak so much louder and clearer than words. A heartfelt smile and a cheery attitude will do more to promote the Spirit of Truth. They could very easily see something through you that they could not hear. Jesus told us to Love and to always be humble. It is my belief that leading by love is always the best option. God will open their heats in time.

Not sure if this was the help you were looking for. 

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: I need help
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2013, 02:15:59 AM »
Read, Study, Pray. If you don't have a Concordance, get one, especially if you are using a KJV.
1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
 Now if or should your peers are able to find a verse in the Bible that states, " Who will Not have all men to be saved..." rest in the truth,
And then those same peers must find a verse that denies, 1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
And point out that bothersome word ALL.
Read, Study, Pray. Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
 :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Graph1159

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Re: I need help
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2013, 06:53:32 AM »
As for the wicked getting destroyed along with the devil, what I would say is that for men to be saved, they must be made new creations. 2 Corinthians 5:17 -  "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." Based on this verse, it sounds like annihilation is actually true if we're talking about the old creation. 

Samuel
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 06:57:13 AM by Graph1159 »

Offline Warhawk17

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Re: I need help
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 07:00:30 AM »
Read, Study, Pray. If you don't have a Concordance, get one, especially if you are using a KJV.
1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
 Now if or should your peers are able to find a verse in the Bible that states, " Who will Not have all men to be saved..." rest in the truth,
And then those same peers must find a verse that denies, 1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
And point out that bothersome word ALL.
Read, Study, Pray. Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
 :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

So do you think the KJV is actually a decent translation? Because I have heard people say that with a concordance it makes a lot more sense, but I'm not sure what it says about the verses that make Hell sound pretty clear.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: I need help
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 07:22:03 AM »
The KJV II, done with a supercomputer according to the translators, also has "Hell." 
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline marie glen

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Re: I need help
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 04:50:19 PM »
I like KJ for the concordance and for familiar memory or verse phrases put to memory.. The New American Standard also has a Strong's concordance called "Strongest"

'hell' in the original Greek used, is of course "hades" - "place of the dead" which in the Greek belief system was a place. But in the Old Testament (our own faith) it was "sheol" a dusty place where "all go" and "where there is no thought nor doing", so I think of the "place of the dead" as being the grave, and also "the lower part of the earth" as the grave, but which Bible phrase is usually read as a subterranean pit of punishment (before trial and sentence)

Isaiah chapter 14 describes, I suppose what we could call the 'final' resting place of Lucifer son of the morning as having worms as his bed and maggots as his cover (or vice versa)

( one more note, the verse which says Jesus preached (via the Spirit) to those in prison (thus thought of again as 'hell') while the ark was being prepared, means just that, He went to those awaiting while the ark was being prepared, via the Spirit or in the Spirit, trying to convince those scoffing at Noah to believe.. "Prison" being like "tartarus" where the dark/fallen angels are 'held' or so believed, but really, imo, all it really means is once a being becomes imperfect, they cannot change course and make their self perfect, what with being imperfect, therefor they are in bonds. ("Awaiting judgment".)
    :Peace2:
                          also.. according to 'hell' belief, one goes there at death, then is resurrected from their grave (or so I would assume) they are judged and then cast back into 'hell' which is now the lake of fire..
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process? by the end of judgement age, veRy few to cleansing in LOF?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline marie glen

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Re: I need help
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 05:18:44 PM »
This week I'm camping at a church camp with friends/family that believe in annihilation. I've been so excited with the truth of universalism I've been sharing. But they are quote disturbed and concerned for me because the Bible is clear in Revelation 20:7-10 that the wicked get destroyed along with the devil. Also being told it is very dangerous to tell people there is another chance after death. I have just finished reading Hope Beyond Hell and can't find where this was dealt with. Can someone please help me?
Kathy

All the answers above are great!  :iagree: wholeheartedly!

...as to"after death" being still hope, I think there's really only one verse which could be seen to imply all hope is lost once one dies, and this is when Jesus told the pharisees, unless they repented they would "die in their sins".. which, imo, simply means the 2nd resurrection, when one rises still "in their sins"/imperfect, is a less joyful resurrection (I believe it catches up to the 1st:) But when they rise it will be for the Day of Judgment (DOJ) the Great White Throne Judgment. And to me, it seems like 'darkness' and wailing.. in a sense like ancient Israel's Day of Atonement, a day of great sorrow and wailing.. (DOA)

But imo, Great WHITE THRoNe suggests whiteness, Light, ray of light, hope.. :smile:
And, the verse "those not believing will go to the LOF" is the very last verse of the chapter (Rev 20) even following "and death and 'hell' were cast into the LOF" - and elsewhere (1 Cor 15?) we know it says "the last enemy vanquished will be death".. no more death :smile: :HeartThrob:

(When Jesus mentioned Gehenna, translated "hell" - Gehenna was the city dump which was kept burning and criminal's bodies were cast there..)

Imo, DOJ (day of judgment) must be a veRy long day.. I can't help thinking, after all that, and having been resurrected from their grave, who the heck's not going to "believe"? Isn't belief what gets our name written in the Book of Life.. true belief..

I usually answer folks who come down on me for UR with a smile and a shrug and tell them I think we greatly underestimate God, His love, His Great Plan of Salvation.. after all He can only be Perfect so how can the 'end' result be anything less than the best one possible?
peace and blessings..  :hiya: God bless!

I think the ancient Spring Holy Days prophesied our Lord's 1st advent and therefor the ancient Fall ones (Lev 23) prophecy His long 2nd advent with DOJ (day of judgment) becoming DOA (day of atonement and "reconciliation",Strong's New Testament reference in Romans as to "atonement"). What I mean is, imo, those of the 2nd resurrection arrive DOA (dead on arrival) but surprise all! it turns out to be the Great (full of Light) Day of Atonement (DOA) and Reconciliation.
    :Peace2:



- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process? by the end of judgement age, veRy few to cleansing in LOF?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline rosered

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Re: I need help
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2013, 07:05:06 PM »
This week I'm camping at a church camp with friends/family that believe in annihilation. I've been so excited with the truth of universalism I've been sharing. But they are quote disturbed and concerned for me because the Bible is clear in Revelation 20:7-10 that the wicked get destroyed along with the devil. Also being told it is very dangerous to tell people there is another chance after death. I have just finished reading Hope Beyond Hell and can't find where this was dealt with. Can someone please help me?
Kathy
  Hi Kathy , 
 for me when given those verses 
 I always say , yes , in a way they are destroyed
  out with the old and in with the new
  WE were also changed by the  breath of Christs coming to us  ,   the Holy Spirit and fire is comsuming the old man as the new man  comes forth !!
  God has the power in Christ to   bring the dead BACK TO LIFE again , making all things new , to  me its always been His Glory  , that no man can can do !!    praise the Lord Jesus Christ   who delivers as promised !! :girlheart:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: I need help
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2013, 10:28:14 PM »
...as to"after death" being still hope, I think there's really only one verse which could be seen to imply all hope is lost once one dies, and this is when Jesus told the pharisees, unless they repented they would "die in their sins".. which, imo, simply means the 2nd resurrection, when one rises still "in their sins"/imperfect, is a less joyful resurrection (I believe it catches up to the 1st:) But when they rise it will be for the Day of Judgment (DOJ) the Great White Throne Judgment. And to me, it seems like 'darkness' and wailing.. in a sense like ancient Israel's Day of Atonement, a day of great sorrow and wailing.. (DOA)

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Beautiful Marie Glen, but it presented a great question that I had never considered before.

Let's say for arguments sake that you are called during the 1st resurrection and I during the 2nd.

Will you look down on me?  :sigh:

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Of course not!!!!!

However, will I look at you differently, because of all that "I" had to go through..... :dontknow:

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Well of course not!

But, what say some evil person that has caused untold mahem and hurt, perhaps even to you or I that caused our death. Will either of us welcome this person who caused so much tragedy in person. Like wise, will this person once "cleansed" remember the horrible things that he did to us, and feel indebted to us forever. Will we forgive him?  :HeartThrob:

Will there be a class separating you from me, and him from us both?

I hope not. I hope that the slate is wiped so clean that it no longer exists. I hope that I don't remember anything but the best of times, the fondest moments. I pray that anything that I have ever did, said, felt or experienced that was not of love is gone forever.

I hope I can meet this cleansed evil doer with open arms as a new best friend.

Best friends are awesome!!  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 10:42:25 PM by JulieTang84 »
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline rosered

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Re: I need help
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2013, 10:42:42 PM »
    :HeartThrob:  what you wrote too Marie !!!  :thumbsup: :friendstu:
 
 everything  is of use to Gods plan  , for God is in control
Jesus is the reward  !!

Online WhiteWings

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Re: I need help
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 11:43:44 AM »
Problem is that UR can't be explained with a single verse.
Billions of doctrinal lies have been written to shut out the light.
Sometimes best is to play along and turn their own understanding against them.
I do believe in LoF, or LoL  :winkgrin: , I also believe lots of destruction is going on inside it.
But what sorta fire? What purpose? What's destroyed?
I bet you already understand what's I'm at so I leave it at this.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:22:06 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline KathyB

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Re: I need help
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2013, 08:00:47 AM »
Thanks everyone!  Great answers.  I am so new at this...and excited about it I want to share with everyone!  But I'm getting that no one wants to hear about it.  What comes up all the time is "free will" and God wants to save all, but isn't able to because of our "free will".  I guess I just need to shut up until I know how to answer all the arguments.  Need to keep reading in here and all the material I can get my hands on.  Also re-reading "Raising Hell" and "Hope Beyond Hell"

I'm wanting to post the "112 scriptures for UR" on my FB....but don't want to debate.  Is there a good place to refer people for debate on this subject?

Online WhiteWings

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Re: I need help
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2013, 08:39:59 AM »
Thanks everyone!  Great answers.  I am so new at this...and excited about it I want to share with everyone!  But I'm getting that no one wants to hear about it.  What comes up all the time is "free will" and God wants to save all, but isn't able to because of our "free will".  I guess I just need to shut up until I know how to answer all the arguments.
All is a lot. But when you have little to no defense, it's counterproductive. They will feel victorious and their belief will be stronger than ever.
Unfortunately it's never that easy because the Bible says we have to plant seeds and HS will water them.
So even if they make a fool out of you the seed may be planted.
Also consider that they can destroy your seed. Do you think you can be talked back into ET? If yes, that's a risk. But that's my opinion and you are the only one in charge over your own life. So ignore me  :winkgrin:


Quote
Need to keep reading in here and all the material I can get my hands on.  Also rereading "Raising Hell" and "Hope Beyond Hell"
If you wish, check out this page of my site. Several free books: http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=ur_books.htm
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/

Quote
I'm wanting to post the "112 scriptures for UR" on my FB....but don't want to debate.  Is there a good place to refer people for debate on this subject?
This forum....
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:16:13 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online WhiteWings

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Re: I need help
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 09:25:13 AM »
The KJV II, done with a supercomputer according to the translators, also has "Hell."
A supercomputer is just about speed. They better had spend their money on polishing up the code. Now they just lie at higher speed  :Chinscratch:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline KathyB

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Re: I need help
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 03:12:42 AM »
Whitewings....Yes, I am rock solid in my belief.  Holy Spirit revealed to me while I was studying and wanting it to be true, but just couldn't wrap my mind around it. I was in a great deal of darkness and confusion at the time, and when Holy Spirit said "this is really true" all darkness and confusion gone instantly and was wrapped in such glorious light, I could only cry for hours!  I really don't care what people think of me.  I just want to plant the seeds of the true "Blessed Hope".  The cult I just left thinks they have the "truth" of the blessed hope, but there is no gospel and most people get torched for not believing in the Sabbath.  So dark!

So it's okay for debate to happen here?  I thought it was just for those who believed.  That is good to know.  I will check out your resources. I'm always looking for anything I can find on this subject.  Thank You!
Kathy

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Re: I need help
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2013, 03:43:21 AM »
So it's okay for debate to happen here?
Yes. But without calling others idiots, misguided, etc when they don't hold your opinion. Peace is the keyword.

Quote
I thought it was just for those who believed.
It is. But people come from different backgrounds. Some believe in trinity others don't. Free will isn't agreed upon either. Some believe in  the literal local flood, while others believe in a literal global flood, while others believe in a more spiritual meaning. Etc etc. Likely the Sabbath rest you mentioned isn't agreed upon. UR isn't a full blown relegion. It's basically about God's character and His wish to save but without all sorts of regulations like say baptism. It's not that UR rejects such things because they are Biblical. It's just that all the UR teachings I know  strongly focus on the salvation part.

Anyway, it's very good you are certain. But they are too. You have been part of that cult so you know all the arguments they use. You have to be able to answer/refute them all. They will try to burn your seeds before you can even sow them. Personally I wouldn't be a good seed planter in real life. I most certainly have views on things. I know there are verses to support those views but I get in trouble when I have to quote the verses. I often don't even know from which book a verse comes. I plant best from behind my PC screen. Access to lots of stuff and nice programs to find a verse quickly. Only KathyB knows KathyB so only KathyB can decide she's ready to plant the seeds of Light.

Good luck.

 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 03:48:22 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: I need help
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2013, 05:10:18 AM »
Hi Kathy.  Please invite/refer anyone who's truly searching.  We describe ourselves as a discussion forum (which Gary, the owner, wants focused/related to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ) -  stopping somewhat short of what many may consider actual debate - although various people have various ideas as to what that means.  "We' take it to mean "arguing"/struggling, which is discouraged.  More so a sharing of understandings, and attempting to gain those understandings from accurate scripture translations and Spirit-revelation/interpretation within those scriptures.  As said, peace, whatever's of building up, edifying, etc.  Blessings.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Tom

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Re: I need help
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2013, 07:56:45 PM »
Kathy, we are the "ecclesia," those "called out" of the world to be "the body of Christ," and I think that includes being called out of the world church system. Tell your church folks they're confusing the future fulfillment of the evangel for Israel with that of the evangel for the nations today by ignoring Paul's epistles that tell of the salvation of all mankind and the reconciliation of all on earth and in heaven.

And scripture says nothing about the so called free will of man being independent of a god who is unable to subject it. That is the philosophy of man denying the omnipotence of his creator. The living God of Hebrew and Greek scripture is the subjector of all whose ultimate plan is to reconcile all and be all in all.

"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"Out of Him and through Him and into Him is all." (Romans 11:36)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 09:55:06 PM by Tom »