Author Topic: The Problem with Problem Passages  (Read 3472 times)

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Offline eaglesway

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The Problem with Problem Passages
« on: November 04, 2011, 08:48:19 AM »
When our revelation is mixed up with our ego, our self-esteem, our desire to be "somebody", or even our "career goals", we have a tendency to "build forts around points". Building a fort around a point can be dangerous, because it involves "preserving our view of the truth" rather than "Being led into all truth by the Spirit". Building forts around points is the way that towers(points) and strongholds(forts) that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God get erected. The surest deliverance from towers and strongholds are "problem passages". Problem passages seem like burrs in our saddle, but they can be the "secret entrance" into the hidden wisdom of God. They can also become the "secret passageway" out of doctrinal bondage; sectarianism; arrogance and selfish ambition.

Mat 13:45-46  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls,  and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

When we "hold a position" based on some scriptures- as if they opposed certain other scriptures- we are usually refusing to press in through the veil to a deeper truth. We are often splitting the two sides of one coin- when the "whole coin" is needed to "purchase understanding"- to come into the mind of Christ. Any point of view that "comes down from heaven" must incorporate all the scriptures. If we have to wrestle to much to excuse verses that seem to contradict our "point", we may be missing the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God altogether. If we are ever to move into the "unity of the faith", we cannot ignore the "problem passages" that assail the completion of our "citadel".

Joh 10:1-5  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. "A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

Two things that will reveal whether we are trying to "build forts around points" or understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God are-
1) Am I able to abide in Christ, in the meekness and longsuffering of the Savior when challenged;
and
 
2) AmI willing to accept that the Logos is complete, it is just not completely understood by me, so I ought to tread somewhat lightly when in discussions with my brothers and sisters because maintaining "the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" is of way more importance to God than my name, my beliefs, my mission and my knowledge.

 The voice of the Lord will be heard in those who come through the "door"- Christ crucified", and the tinny sound of a religionist's dogma can be heard surrounding even some of the most beautiful doctrines of the faith when "held" in the flesh.

Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". it is no wonder people flee the "church" and prefer to seek comfort elsewhere. How can a people who cannot love their own brethren be expected to be a city set upon a hil, a lamp set upon a Lampstand? It is THE LIGHT that draws men to God from out of the darkness. How do we kno if we are walking in the light"?

"If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin".

We teach methodology and will worship and very few get delivered and very few come into the "church" because we compete with one another rather than compel one another in the love of Christ.

We ignore, for instance, these "problem passages" as we go off on our "holy missions".

"By THIS they will kno you are by disciples, and that the Father has loved you......by your love for one another!

 By this you JOY WILL BE MADE FULL.....by your love for one another!

 When our joy is full then we are salt and light to the world. We have that inner witness that we are in the will of God and all men are drawn to the one who is being lifted up....Christ and Him Crucified. He is seen in us in this way.....when the veil of flesh is torn....when our pride becomes humility.....when our peace surpasses our understanding.

So, "speaking the truth in love" we can edify one another, building up the body, equipping the saints, and pressing into the "unity of the faith". The sheep know His voice, and they will not follow another- no matter how much knowledge that person has.

1Co 13:1-2  If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.  (2)  If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Now we see through a glass dimly.......Now we all stumble in many ways......Now we have some problem passages ;o)



The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 09:34:41 AM »
Well said. Amen :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline SevanthDay

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 10:16:30 PM »
When our revelation is mixed up with our ego, our self-esteem, our desire to be "somebody", or even our "career goals", we have a tendency to "build forts around points". Building a fort around a point can be dangerous, because it involves "preserving our view of the truth" rather than "Being led into all truth by the Spirit". Building forts around points is the way that towers(points) and strongholds(forts) that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God get erected. The surest deliverance from towers and strongholds are "problem passages". Problem passages seem like burrs in our saddle, but they can be the "secret entrance" into the hidden wisdom of God. They can also become the "secret passageway" out of doctrinal bondage; sectarianism; arrogance and selfish ambition.

Mat 13:45-46  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls,  and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

When we "hold a position" based on some scriptures- as if they opposed certain other scriptures- we are usually refusing to press in through the veil to a deeper truth. We are often splitting the two sides of one coin- when the "whole coin" is needed to "purchase understanding"- to come into the mind of Christ. Any point of view that "comes down from heaven" must incorporate all the scriptures. If we have to wrestle to much to excuse verses that seem to contradict our "point", we may be missing the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God altogether. If we are ever to move into the "unity of the faith", we cannot ignore the "problem passages" that assail the completion of our "citadel".

Joh 10:1-5  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. "A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

Two things that will reveal whether we are trying to "build forts around points" or understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God are-
1) Am I able to abide in Christ, in the meekness and longsuffering of the Savior when challenged;
and
 
2) AmI willing to accept that the Logos is complete, it is just not completely understood by me, so I ought to tread somewhat lightly when in discussions with my brothers and sisters because maintaining "the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" is of way more importance to God than my name, my beliefs, my mission and my knowledge.

 The voice of the Lord will be heard in those who come through the "door"- Christ crucified", and the tinny sound of a religionist's dogma can be heard surrounding even some of the most beautiful doctrines of the faith when "held" in the flesh.

Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". it is no wonder people flee the "church" and prefer to seek comfort elsewhere. How can a people who cannot love their own brethren be expected to be a city set upon a hil, a lamp set upon a Lampstand? It is THE LIGHT that draws men to God from out of the darkness. How do we kno if we are walking in the light"?

"If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin".

We teach methodology and will worship and very few get delivered and very few come into the "church" because we compete with one another rather than compel one another in the love of Christ.

We ignore, for instance, these "problem passages" as we go off on our "holy missions".

"By THIS they will kno you are by disciples, and that the Father has loved you......by your love for one another!

 By this you JOY WILL BE MADE FULL.....by your love for one another!

 When our joy is full then we are salt and light to the world. We have that inner witness that we are in the will of God and all men are drawn to the one who is being lifted up....Christ and Him Crucified. He is seen in us in this way.....when the veil of flesh is torn....when our pride becomes humility.....when our peace surpasses our understanding.

So, "speaking the truth in love" we can edify one another, building up the body, equipping the saints, and pressing into the "unity of the faith". The sheep know His voice, and they will not follow another- no matter how much knowledge that person has.

1Co 13:1-2  If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.  (2)  If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Now we see through a glass dimly.......Now we all stumble in many ways......Now we have some problem passages ;o)

Hello eaglesway:

Let us keep this OP going because it is an important one. Please bring up some of these problematic scriptures and lets us discuss them.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

Offline lastpost

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 11:52:21 PM »
When our revelation is mixed up with our ego, our self-esteem, our desire to be "somebody", or even our "career goals", we have a tendency to "build forts around points". Building a fort around a point can be dangerous, because it involves "preserving our view of the truth" rather than "Being led into all truth by the Spirit". Building forts around points is the way that towers(points) and strongholds(forts) that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God get erected. The surest deliverance from towers and strongholds are "problem passages". Problem passages seem like burrs in our saddle, but they can be the "secret entrance" into the hidden wisdom of God. They can also become the "secret passageway" out of doctrinal bondage; sectarianism; arrogance and selfish ambition.

Mat 13:45-46  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls,  and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

When we "hold a position" based on some scriptures- as if they opposed certain other scriptures- we are usually refusing to press in through the veil to a deeper truth. We are often splitting the two sides of one coin- when the "whole coin" is needed to "purchase understanding"- to come into the mind of Christ. Any point of view that "comes down from heaven" must incorporate all the scriptures. If we have to wrestle to much to excuse verses that seem to contradict our "point", we may be missing the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God altogether. If we are ever to move into the "unity of the faith", we cannot ignore the "problem passages" that assail the completion of our "citadel".

Joh 10:1-5  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. "But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. "A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

Two things that will reveal whether we are trying to "build forts around points" or understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God are-
1) Am I able to abide in Christ, in the meekness and longsuffering of the Savior when challenged;
and
 
2) AmI willing to accept that the Logos is complete, it is just not completely understood by me, so I ought to tread somewhat lightly when in discussions with my brothers and sisters because maintaining "the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" is of way more importance to God than my name, my beliefs, my mission and my knowledge.

 The voice of the Lord will be heard in those who come through the "door"- Christ crucified", and the tinny sound of a religionist's dogma can be heard surrounding even some of the most beautiful doctrines of the faith when "held" in the flesh.

Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". it is no wonder people flee the "church" and prefer to seek comfort elsewhere. How can a people who cannot love their own brethren be expected to be a city set upon a hil, a lamp set upon a Lampstand? It is THE LIGHT that draws men to God from out of the darkness. How do we kno if we are walking in the light"?

"If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin".

We teach methodology and will worship and very few get delivered and very few come into the "church" because we compete with one another rather than compel one another in the love of Christ.

We ignore, for instance, these "problem passages" as we go off on our "holy missions".

"By THIS they will kno you are by disciples, and that the Father has loved you......by your love for one another!

 By this you JOY WILL BE MADE FULL.....by your love for one another!

 When our joy is full then we are salt and light to the world. We have that inner witness that we are in the will of God and all men are drawn to the one who is being lifted up....Christ and Him Crucified. He is seen in us in this way.....when the veil of flesh is torn....when our pride becomes humility.....when our peace surpasses our understanding.

So, "speaking the truth in love" we can edify one another, building up the body, equipping the saints, and pressing into the "unity of the faith". The sheep know His voice, and they will not follow another- no matter how much knowledge that person has.

1Co 13:1-2  If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.  (2)  If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Now we see through a glass dimly.......Now we all stumble in many ways......Now we have some problem passages ;o)

This is well said friend, thank you indeed
                                       :dsunny:
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one". "Christ is like leaven for the entire mass, and having made that which was damned one with himself, frees the whole from damnation".

Gregory of Nazianzu

Offline dajomaco

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 12:28:44 AM »
I used to say all I know is Jesus the Christ and him crucified.
Then continue on arguing and debating my point, or some passage that I thought
the Holy Spirit had shown me and I was to enlighten and debate with any one
who saw it differently.

UR. And specifically this site has led me into a different field.
so I have let go and bought into the foundation.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 
and upon finding one pearl of great value,
he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 12:45:28 AM »
I used to say all I know is Jesus the Christ and him crucified.
Then continue on arguing and debating my point, or some passage that I thought
the Holy Spirit had shown me and I was to enlighten and debate with any one
who saw it differently.

UR. And specifically this site has led me into a different field.
so I have let go and bought into the foundation.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 
and upon finding one pearl of great value,
he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

 :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 01:02:23 AM »
I used to say all I know is Jesus the Christ and him crucified.
Then continue on arguing and debating my point, or some passage that I thought
the Holy Spirit had shown me and I was to enlighten and debate with any one
who saw it differently.

UR. And specifically this site has led me into a different field.
so I have let go and bought into the foundation.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 
and upon finding one pearl of great value,
he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

 :dsunny:

 :dsunny:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline SevanthDay

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2013, 07:38:42 AM »
I used to say all I know is Jesus the Christ and him crucified.
Then continue on arguing and debating my point, or some passage that I thought
the Holy Spirit had shown me and I was to enlighten and debate with any one
who saw it differently.

UR. And specifically this site has led me into a different field.
so I have let go and bought into the foundation.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 
and upon finding one pearl of great value,
he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

 :dsunny:

Hello eaglesway:

Who do you think this merchant represents? Is it talking about Jesus? Or is it talking about man? What is this one pearl of great value? What it Jesus or was it man? Or was it something else? Was it Jesus that sold all that he had by redeeming us with his blood or is this talking about a man selling all that he had to obtain  salvation through the faith of Christ working on man? What is it that man had that he could sell? Nothing!

Is the merchant Jesus? Is the pearl of great value man, or the world, or field because God has put a value on it. Did Jesus purchase this pearl of great value as a ransom for man by the shedding of his blood and as a sacrificial offering?

I doubt that man could do anything to obtain his salvation and that man did not recognized Jesus a pearl of great  value until God regenerated man and gave him a new heart.

Just some questions but I am looking for answers. Your help would be greatly appreciated.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 07:47:04 AM by SevanthDay »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 08:38:39 AM »
I hav heard it said the man is the pearl and Jesus is the merchant. I understand the perspective but it doesnt work for me.

As I see it, I was the merchant. I was seeking pearls of truth. One day I came upon a pearl of exceeding value... all the other truths I had sought and collected no longer had any individual value to me.  I traded them all in for the pearl of great price. Christ and Hiim crucified and knowing Him.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline SevanthDay

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2013, 09:13:43 AM »
I hav heard it said the man is the pearl and Jesus is the merchant. I understand the perspective but it doesnt work for me.

As I see it, I was the merchant. I was seeking pearls of truth. One day I came upon a pearl of exceeding value... all the other truths I had sought and collected no longer had any individual value to me.  I traded them all in for the pearl of great price. Christ and Hiim crucified and knowing Him.

Hello eaglesway:

And what did you sell to get this one valuable pearl of great price? The merchant sold all that he had. What does that mean? Commitment and self surrender and picking up his cross and following him? Or is it both? Jesus gave his life for humanity and in return out of our gratitude we are giving our life for him. Are we not participating in the life that he lived and the death that he died and in his resurrection?

God bless you,

SeventhDay
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 09:19:52 AM by SevanthDay »

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 08:25:55 PM »
In His parables, Jesus is telling us how the Kingdom of Heaven operates.  He is telling us to lay aside all else, keep our attention on the ONE over-riding thing of utmost importance:  our entry into the Kingdom, our fellowship with man and God, and Christ in us.  Christ-in-us just may be that pearl of great price.  I remember that the first time I came across that Scripture "...we will be like Him," it was like an epiphany for me.  Without God's Word saying it, who would have even suspected such an audacious thing?
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 08:37:57 PM »
In His parables, Jesus is telling us how the Kingdom of Heaven operates.  He is telling us to lay aside all else, keep our attention on the ONE over-riding thing of utmost importance:  our entry into the Kingdom, our fellowship with man and God, and Christ in us.  Christ-in-us just may be that pearl of great price.  I remember that the first time I came across that Scripture "...we will be like Him," it was like an epiphany for me.  Without God's Word saying it, who would have even suspected such an audacious thing?


Yes, Christ in you, the hope of glory, to me, is part and parcel with Christ and him crucified.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline dajomaco

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 08:48:59 PM »
I believe the Pearls are our identity, we grow up adding to our identity
we protect it we keep adding to our collections of pearls so that we are
identify by the pearls we keep.

Then when I find the great Pearl and it is available I sell every thing and buy
this Pearl. That means I have traded my old identity for the new one the new Pearl.

The Pearl is so big that when I wear it ,or when I feel save enough to wear it
every one sees my new Pearl.
If I wear one of my old Pearls I can't wear the Great Pearl there is no room
IMO  This passage represents the new Identity I trade for the Pearl
 

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 11:30:07 PM »
A new creation in the image of Christ the image of God :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Online WhiteWings

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 12:33:18 PM »
In His parables, Jesus is telling us how the Kingdom of Heaven operates.  He is telling us to lay aside all else, keep our attention on the ONE over-riding thing of utmost importance:  our entry into the Kingdom, our fellowship with man and God, and Christ in us.  Christ-in-us just may be that pearl of great price.  I remember that the first time I came across that Scripture "...we will be like Him," it was like an epiphany for me.  Without God's Word saying it, who would have even suspected such an audacious thing?

Of the things that are in the waters, you may eat anything that has fins and scales. Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9. Thus, shellfish such as lobsters, oysters, shrimp, clams and crabs are all forbidden.

I'm wondering why pearls are used in the example because they originate from an unclean animal.
I'm aware pearl also means a proverb, i.e. a word of great value.
But in the Jewish ear it would sound equally offensive as calling a swine wise.
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Problem with Problem Passages
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2013, 01:11:06 AM »
Jesus offended the Jews on purpose, using the "unclean thing" to provoke their jealousy and religiousity. He ate with sinners. He allowed a gentile woman to weep over Him and clean His feet with her tears. He drank wine and was not "holier than thou" as the Sanhedrin was. The pearl has a grain of dirt (earth) at the center of it. Perhaps, whatever we will be when we are "finished" will have a grain of dirt at the center as well.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com