Author Topic: The Hebrew Concept of Time  (Read 2588 times)

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Offline Akira Takahashi

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The Hebrew Concept of Time
« on: February 15, 2009, 10:00:50 PM »
I found an interesting site refuting the concept of "aionios", and I don't have enough knowledge of Greek to refute any of it.  Can anyone help me out - I just need explanation.

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/aionios.html

Offline sven

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 10:15:37 PM »
i think this is the concept of 2 ages/eons or worlds, the present age and the age to come, I've heard this argument before, they quoted the Book of Enoch to support their view

olam haba, the world to come - i once read an article of a Rabbi, stating, there will be a time after the olam haba, cause 'olam' has the word root of 'fading'

but I think this is unbiblical/afterbiblical Jewish eschatology, the apogryph Book of Esdras says the eon to come is endless and therefore the punishment is endless.

but the Bible speaks of more than one eon to come and the Tanakh mentions past 'olamin' or ages or "eternities"

Ecclesiastes 1:10

Is there a thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? It hath been already in the ages (pl. of olam) which were before us.

Daniel 7:17-19

These great beasts, that are four, are four kings, they rise up from the earth; 18 and receive the kingdom do the saints of the Most High, and they strengthen the kingdom unto the age, even unto the age of the ages.

και παραληψονται την βασιλειαν αγιοι υψιστου και καθεξουσι την βασιλειαν εως του αιωνος και εως του αιωνος των αιωνων

the age maybe messianic kingdom, the age of the ages maybe new world

messianic kingdom + new earth maybe = ages of ages

+ Jesus will reign for the ages of ages, but he will not reign forever, "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." (1 Corintheans 15:25)

That in the aeons to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:7)

I can hardly see a scriptural proof, that the age to come is everlasting.




« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 10:39:21 PM by sven »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 11:18:14 PM »
 :cloud9: This is something the Lord showed me. Imagine a cross. Then imagine an explosion of God's Spirit coming out from that cross image. Then imagine that everything that explodes to the left of the cross is the past, ie. everything that happened before the cross. Then imagine that everything that explodes to the right of the cross is the future, ie. everything that happened after the cross.

We think that time began in a straight linear progression, beginning with the foundation of the world, then Adam, ect. but it began with the Lamb being slain, ie. the cross before the beginning, and everything that ever was or ever will be, came out of that all at once, going in both directions at once.

So in the Spirit, as there is no time, He is both the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega, the left and the right. But because we are finite, "trapped" in one section of the "explosion" by this flesh that is subject to sin and death, we perceive it as past and future, but to Him it is all the same. Therefore the degree to which we overcome sin and death thru His Spirit, is the degree to which we free ourselves thru His Spirit to see as He sees. No wonder then He said, we perish without a vision. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 12:05:37 AM »
Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10  are not using aionios but aion.

Luke indeed uses aionios.
Luke 18:30  Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world/aion to come life everlasting/aionios.

This verse I don't understand unless Lord=God
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

As Sven mentioned the next aion is the ending rulership of Jesus; so it is ending.

Romans 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting/aionios God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I've read some articles claiming that in the above verse aionios has a limited duration. It isn't telling us God has a limited lifespan but He is the owner/creator of the ages/time.

I've been thinking about an alternative interpretation. Unfortunate my English is to crappy to explain exactly what I mean. So please try to understand instead of picking on exact words. Thanks....
Lets replace aionios by 'the eternal one'

Romans 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal one, God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 

Luke 18:30  Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life from/given by the eternal one.

So aionios is linked to God. No matter if it is about time or for example fire.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 12:22:43 AM »
Cardinal,

I guess the thiefs that where crucified left and right of Jesus tell the same story...

Quote
Imagine a cross.
....left of the cross is the past, ie. everything that happened before the cross.
....the right of the cross is the future

Quote
everything that ever was or ever will be, came out of that all at once, going in both directions at once.

Quote
we perceive it as past and future, but to Him it is all the same.

So the cross is the center and time flows into the past and the future.
We are trapped in the sinful left flow towards the past.
Correct?
But if for Him there is no past and present. Doesn't that mean that the sinful left/past always will exist? The sinful left has much pain and tears. But those will be wiped away. (only on the right side?)

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 02:08:34 AM »
Cardinal,

I guess the thiefs that where crucified left and right of Jesus tell the same story...

Quote
Imagine a cross.
....left of the cross is the past, ie. everything that happened before the cross.
....the right of the cross is the future

Quote
everything that ever was or ever will be, came out of that all at once, going in both directions at once.

Quote
we perceive it as past and future, but to Him it is all the same.

So the cross is the center and time flows into the past and the future.
We are trapped in the sinful left flow towards the past.
Correct?
But if for Him there is no past and present. Doesn't that mean that the sinful left/past always will exist? The sinful left has much pain and tears. But those will be wiped away. (only on the right side?)

:cloud9: You know, I was going to add that about the 2 thieves, but deleted it. Now I know why; you were supposed to "get" it and bring it forth.  :thumbsup:

And no, we are, as spirit, "trapped" purposefully, in whatever time period we are existing in. What I described is a vision He gave me in prayer, where I saw Him on the cross and the "explosion" for lack of a better word, I saw in the Spirit scenes in time going in both directions at once, at lightning speed, with the Spirit giving me understanding on a particular scene of His choice, here and there.

We see the cross as that one time natural event that happened 2000 + years ago, but in reality it happened at the beginning, in the split second BEFORE time existed, and ALL came out of that. It's hard to wrap your mind around without a "picture", or at least it is for me. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 09:12:21 AM »
Quote
We see the cross as that one time natural event that happened 2000 + years ago, but in reality it happened at the beginning, in the split second BEFORE time existed, and ALL came out of that. It's hard to wrap your mind around without a "picture", or at least it is for me. Blessings.....

That part is quite easy to understand for me because it describes the Big Bang...
That explosion was timeless too in the 1st fraction of a second.
I always forget his name but the same was written by a Jewish scholar that lived in Spain some centuries ago. His name was something like Namoides.
Actually the way science describes the 1st splitsecond of the big bang is a lot like the Bible story.

So Jesus was crucified before time started. We are obviously at the left side side of the explosion. Moving backwards in time (that doesn't yet exist)
Are there also "replica's" of use moving to the right at this moment?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 11:33:37 AM »
 :cloud9: You don't know how much that blessed me to know that about the scholar. I recently ran into something else (can't for the life of me remember what now) that was near identical to something God gave me, only some Rabbi wrote it centuries before. I love it when He gives confirmations, and get as excited as I did the first time, many, many years ago. It never gets old. Thank you. The single greatest revelation for me besides knowing the Son and salvation, is that the God of the universe "stoops down" so to speak, to talk to us mere mortals. I'll never get over the wonder of that.

And no, we are on the right side, because the literal cross is behind us 2000 + years. It's like time started at the cross, but somehow went past and future at the same time. You know, the thought just hit me, it's like a scroll when rolled together, the ends meet in the middle. Hmmm......the heavens are to be rolled up, like a scroll? Something else to think about regarding that. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 05:01:49 PM »
:cloud9: You don't know how much that blessed me to know that about the scholar.
He didn't write about the cross but something that explains the big bang. But the timeless part is in your vision, big bang theory and the writing of that scholar.
Personally I see it as God pressing a red big bang button that started all :-)
Quote
Thank you.
Thank Him. I don't have much influenec in your visions  :laughing7:

Quote
You know, the thought just hit me, it's like a scroll when rolled together, the ends meet in the middle. Hmmm......the heavens are to be rolled up, like a scroll? Something else to think about regarding that. Blessings....
Got a verse with that scroll? I know about a verse with 'streched' like a curtain. Big bang and your cross example.
Rolled up like a scroll sounds like uncreating the universe. Biblically seen not that strange I think because then everything flows back into the cross. -> All in all. Al in Him
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 08:21:49 PM »
  :cloud9: LOL......I know the scripture you quoted; I was saying maybe that is closer to what was meant, ie. regarding the scroll, because in a sense He has written upon all the heavens, just like the Word was written upon scrolls. He does so many things in there similar in thought, but not necessarily in word. I think He really has/had fun with the word plays.

The Big Bang theory was the first thing I thought of, obviously. Sometimes you can almost look at what man has devised and figure out what the truth is, can't you, LOL? Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Akira Takahashi

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 04:23:27 PM »
Thanks for all the great responses, but I'm still stuck a bit on this passage:

Quote
The fourth objection universalists present is that several verses point to there being "ages" for believers yet to come in the after life, citing Ephesians 2:7 for example. The Bible refers to past ages in order to exalt God in His knowledge as the divine Creator in parallel with human ignorance (Isaiah 64:4; Deut. 4:32). The New Testament reveals the hidden wisdom of God, the Gospel, is a mystery that is revealed after long ages (1 Corinthians 2:7; Colossians 1:26; Romoms 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2).

With that in mind, the present era is the end of the ages according to 1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 9:26; and 1 Peter 1:20. In reference to Ephesians 2:7, the church as it lives in this age looks forward to the age of future consummation. Though the saved exist in this age, they are born from above as new creatures at the moment of their salvation. Now is a the dawn of a new age for them while they live in an age that is yet to end. These believers also look forward to the next age in which they will be incorruptible, conformed to the image of Christ (ref. Romans 8:29). Therefore when Ephesians 2:7 speaks of ages to Christians, it speaks righteously because Christians whom are born from above participate in two ages with the blessings of the Lord -the end of this age, and the coming kingdom of God.

Hence, Ephesians 2:7 isn't speaking of multiple ages that take place in the coming kingdom of God in the after life as the universalists must have occur to support their unscriptural position of purgatory.

Thanks for being patient with me.  I've been a fundamental Christian my entire life (and given that I'm 22-years-old, that isn't a lot of time to really know the Lord), and I'm having a few problems on my journey.

Offline Tony N

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2009, 07:39:03 PM »
Thanks for all the great responses, but I'm still stuck a bit on this passage:

Quote
The fourth objection universalists present is that several verses point to there being "ages" for believers yet to come in the after life, citing Ephesians 2:7 for example. The Bible refers to past ages in order to exalt God in His knowledge as the divine Creator in parallel with human ignorance (Isaiah 64:4; Deut. 4:32). The New Testament reveals the hidden wisdom of God, the Gospel, is a mystery that is revealed after long ages (1 Corinthians 2:7; Colossians 1:26; Romoms 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2).

With that in mind, the present era is the end of the ages according to 1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 9:26; and 1 Peter 1:20.

Dear Akira, please allow me to give you thoughts on the above. I will quote the verses then expound. I will quote from the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe it is the most accurate version I can find to date.

1Co 10:11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained."


The above verse does not suggest that the eons have ended but that the ends of the eons have attained to the believer. What does this mean? The future eons have a goal in view. In what way have the consummations of the eons attained to us? What is God's goal for all humanity when the eons consummate? All will be justified, reconciled, be made righteous, be at peace with God, have the fruit of the spirit. All these blessings have attained to us now.

"since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest" (Heb.9:26).


The above verse also does not suggest that all the eons ended when Christ died. Sin has not been repudiated out of the universe yet. Sin will still be guest to the universe during the millennium as well as on the new earth. It will finally be repudiated at the conclusion of the eons to come. Christ was manifest so that sin through His sacrifice would be repudiated at the conclusion of the eons.

"foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world, yet manifested in the last times because of you, who through Him are believing in God" (1 Pet.1:20).


The "last times" does not mean "the final eons."
Gal 4:4 Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law, "

According to Paul, "when the pleroma of time" or "the complement of time came" God delegated His Son.

From Peter's perspective he really believed he was in the last times before the millennium was to come.

Much later after Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he penned:
"that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:7).

So we know that Paul did not mean that the eons ended in 1 Corinthians 10:11.

Quote
In reference to Ephesians 2:7, the church as it lives in this age looks forward to the age of future consummation. Though the saved exist in this age, they are born from above as new creatures at the moment of their salvation. Now is a the dawn of a new age for them while they live in an age that is yet to end. These believers also look forward to the next age in which they will be incorruptible, conformed to the image of Christ (ref. Romans 8:29). Therefore when Ephesians 2:7 speaks of ages to Christians, it speaks righteously because Christians whom are born from above participate in two ages with the blessings of the Lord -the end of this age, and the coming kingdom of God.

Actually, that is not what Ephesians 2:7 is saying. Paul states from His vantage point that there are "oncoming eons."
If I am writing this on Saturday (and I am) and that I am sending this to be posted at 11:59 P.M. Saturday evening, and I know you and others are going to read it,  I would say "during the day to come" rather than "the oncoming days" my post will be read. If I were to day it will be read during "the oncoming days" then you would assume that Sunday would not be the last day for it to be read.

Quote
Hence, Ephesians 2:7 isn't speaking of multiple ages that take place in the coming kingdom of God in the after life as the universalists must have occur to support their unscriptural position of purgatory.

Actually, Ephesians 2:7 is speaking of multible ages to come.
We are living in the present wicked eon (Galatians 1:4) and from that vantage point, Paul says "in the oncoming eons". There must be more than one eon to come because the eons and the worlds run parallel to each other. In other words, this eon is going to end when the great earthquake comes and all the cities of the nations fall. The Thousand year eon and world will end when the earth is destroyed by fire. Then the new heavens and new earth come.
Now the problem with the above scenario is that some Universalist Preterists believe we are already in the 1000 year eon and so there will be only one eon to come. I don't believe that.
If you wish to see some charts of the above please go here:

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

and here:

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/KirkEonChart.html

Tony
http:saviourofall.org
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Akira Takahashi

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 05:33:34 AM »
That makes sense.  Thanks, Tony!  I'm no theologian by any stretch of the imagination, so I need lots of explaining whenever I'm trying to make progress.

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 05:55:59 AM »
I found an interesting site refuting the concept of "aionios", and I don't have enough knowledge of Greek to refute any of it.  Can anyone help me out - I just need explanation.

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/aionios.html


I do not mean to extract a couple of sentences from this article to say it is refuted, so bear with my point.


Quote
However, it is wise to note that anything that is extra biblical is just that—extra biblical.
As such we are not to base our doctrines upon the musings and words of uninspired men.


This is typical of religious writings supporting eternal damnation.   They actually contradict themselves.  The assertion is that anything supporting universalsism is brought forth by uninspired men.   And of course the view they believe has nothing to do with Gods word but, their view then is brought forth by inspired Godly men.

The contradiction to their "extra-biblical" nonsense is that their view is obtained through "MEN" who wrote in Ancient Hebrew and Greek,  but then for the here and now was translated by "MEN"  so it ALL according to their logic is extra biblical.


Some disagree with my point of view and that is fine,  but we have to realize that when someone says  "Gods word was inspired"  it is not that simple,  because then we have to decifer what translation is best,  eternal, age,  and whether the commas are in the right place.

So really,  if we think about it,  ot at least as I think about it.   We are either all screwed due to the sovereign God being a trickster by giving his word many different ways and telling us to figure it out.   Or, maybe, perhaps,  we are all going to be in glory despite all the bickering, arguing debating, etc.

Funny thing about words.   While we can see that some things literally end,  we can sure think they are going to last forever despite that huh?

Thats where I am at with this deal over age and eternal,  if my well being in Christ means I have to dwell over these words for the next umpteen years,  Gods crazy.....




Offline sven

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Re: The Hebrew Concept of Time
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2009, 05:22:55 PM »
obviously some Jews believed there will be a time after the olam haba or the age to come:

Rabbi Bar Nachman: "The future world (the Olam habba) will have its Gehenna, but the last times will have it no more."

an article of a Jewish universalist

http://www.nccg.org/mlt/sermons/3_065.html
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 03:15:21 PM by sven »