The Fear of the Lord

[legoman]

When I was younger (even a kid) I would read the bible and read about the "fear of the Lord".  It sounded pretty scary to me... why do I need to be afraid of God?  (Probably because if I slip up I'm going to hell)

Just last week I was doing another study on the fear of the Lord and realized that it is just another proof for UR.  I posted this over at CARM and got zero response on it (surprise) but thought I would share it here.

--
God's love will not fail.

Psalm 145:9
[KJV] The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
[NIV] The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.

Psalm 145:17
[KJV] The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
[NIV] The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.

His love is unfailing:

Psalm 33:5 The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

Psalm 147:11
the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

But what about the hate? We should hate evil:

Amos 5:15 Hate evil, love good; ...

Psalm 97:10 Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 8:13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

Notice the key concept those who "fear the Lord" in Psalm 147:11 and Proverbs 8:13. To fear the Lord is to love the Lord - and to also hate evil. Here is some of what scripture says about those who fear the Lord:

Psalm 147:11
the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

Psalm 102:15 The nations will fear the name of the LORD,
all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.

Deut 28:10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you.

Joshua 4:24 He did this so that all the peoples of the earth might know that the hand of the LORD is powerful and so that you might always fear the LORD the your God.

1 Samuel 12:14 If you fear the LORD and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the LORD your God-good

Job 28:28 And he said to man, 'The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.' "

Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him.

Psalm 33:18 But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love



--

So to summarize, if you fear the Lord, you will hate evil and do good (be righteous), and you will have hope in God's unfailing love.  The Lord delights in those who fear Him.  Those who fear the Lord, also love the Lord.  And everyone is eventually going to fear the Lord!

Let all the earth fear the Lord!

Amen.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I personally am not going to fear something that I have to understand through faith and hope.

If God is this entity that operates a certain level then there are a few things I've come to a conclusion about and will not waste my time considering otherwise.

1.If we have no free will, then I will live my life according to the perception that I do and enjoy that perception because obviously there isn't anything can do about it anyway.

2. If everything is up to me, then I am going to live my life and enjoy living and loving to the best of my ability based on what God allowed me to be born into.  If God is waiting for me to find some glory in him for this crap hole he placed me in and I have to figure out how to avoid some eternal hell, then I guess he can keep waiting.

3. If there is a cooperative nature to what God wants me to do, then God can get on the stick and reveal himself more throughly if , if,  I have not understood it correctly to this date.  In the meantime I will enjoy my life as best I can and thats just how it will be.

4. If God gave me the gift of life and this path of life is the only way to perfection and even God couldn't of created us and set us on a more pleasant path, then I will enjoy this life to the best of my ability and do the best I can and perhaps thank God one day day when it is revealed that is the truth.


5. If it is truth that God could of made us perfect from the get go and avoided all this crap and pain, then God will have to force me to love him which then means we are at the mercy of a monster.  Till I understand that and am forced to love him at which point I will not know the difference anyway,  I will enjoy life and make the best of everything to the best  know how.


If you see the common denominator in all those points, then you will see why I will not fear any view of God at all.

[legoman]

Here are some further thoughts on this.  Why should we fear the Lord?  And how does that lead to us loving God?  What is this fear we should have?

God made us.  We are a created thing.  Many people don't realize this.  He makes us and he can break us.  In fact the bible use the analogy of clay.  God forms us as He sees fit and then breaks us and again re-forms us.

That is an awesome fearful power that God has.  Creating something from nothing is a scary power.  God, if He wanted to, could have destined some people to burn forever, if He wanted.  That is a big if.  He wants no such thing (Jeremiah 7:31).  God is good and loving to all He creates.  Everything He puts us through is for our benefit.

So we are to have this fear - not a horror flick kind of fear where we are always running around scared of what could happen - but a respectful fearful view of the power that God has.

Yet, yet, this fear leads us to love God.  We know God has this awesome ultimate power, and we know that He uses it for good purposes for us!  Reread Psalm 145:9 and 145:17.  He is good to all he has made and is righteous in all his ways.

Sometimes I think the word "righteous" gets a bad name because of our former ET beliefs.  An ETer believes it is "good" and "righteous" that people should burn eternally.  Sorry, that is not what righteous means, and if that is your view of what the word "righteous" means, please change that view right now.  The word "righteous" means to be right and to do the right thing.  To do the right thing is also to do the good thing. 

God will always do the good and right thing.  For that we are thankful.  And that is why we should love God, because He is good to us.

So you can see it is possible to fear God (respect his power) and love God (because He loves us and is good to us).

One final thought:

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.


So to summarize:
- every knee (all humanity) is going to bow and worship God (Rom 14:11)
- all nations (all humanity) is going to fear the Lord (Rev 15:4)
- all humanity will hate what is evil (Prov 8:13)
- all humanity will learn wisdom (Prov 9:10)
- all humanity will love the Lord (Psalm 97:10 etc)

Peace.

[IceDash]

Well I heard the bible tranlation choose fear because the word greek for fear also have the same meaning as "respect!" so they choose fear instead of respect...

[Cardinal]

  Good post legoman.  When I was in church once, someone beside me was getting in their purse, doing all sorts of distracting things. The thing was, God had given someone tongues and the interpretation was coming as this other person was doing these distracting things. He spoke to me, "No fear of the Lord," regarding their behavior in His presence.
 
He defined fear for me as, reverence. We are to reverence Him above all other things and people. The one thing I can say about being in churches briefly in the beginning of my walk, is it teaches, just thru being there, practicing being in His presence (if in fact His Spirit is actually there; some churches I don't think He's attended in years  ). Once you feel it, you recognize it elsewhere. Blessings...

[sparrow]

Good post legoman.  When I was in church once, someone beside me was getting in their purse, doing all sorts of distracting things. The thing was, God had given someone tongues and the interpretation was coming as this other person was doing these distracting things. He spoke to me, "No fear of the Lord," regarding their behavior in His presence.
 
He defined fear for me as, reverence. We are to reverence Him above all other things and people. The one thing I can say about being in churches briefly in the beginning of my walk, is it teaches, just thru being there, practicing being in His presence (if in fact His Spirit is actually there; some churches I don't think He's attended in years  ). Once you feel it, you recognize it elsewhere. Blessings...

Just have to play devil's advocate for a minute. Maybe you were wrong about that person? Maybe she did have "fear of the lord" but wasn't feeling God's presence at that time. Just because someone is "talking in tongues" doesn't neccessarily mean that is of God, does it? Maybe she discerned that it wasn't of God. ?? And maybe she was searching through her purse because she was trying to find her pills that she forgot to take? And if she didn't take them she would have ended up in physical trouble?I'm just saying... ya never know.

peace.

[sparrow]

hmm. I have more stuff to say about this "Fear" stuff... but gotta get ready for work...
so I'll come back later.
I understand what Paul is saying, I think.

[Cardinal]

Good post legoman.  When I was in church once, someone beside me was getting in their purse, doing all sorts of distracting things. The thing was, God had given someone tongues and the interpretation was coming as this other person was doing these distracting things. He spoke to me, "No fear of the Lord," regarding their behavior in His presence.
 
He defined fear for me as, reverence. We are to reverence Him above all other things and people. The one thing I can say about being in churches briefly in the beginning of my walk, is it teaches, just thru being there, practicing being in His presence (if in fact His Spirit is actually there; some churches I don't think He's attended in years  ). Once you feel it, you recognize it elsewhere. Blessings...

Just have to play devil's advocate for a minute. Maybe you were wrong about that person? Maybe she did have "fear of the lord" but wasn't feeling God's presence at that time. Just because someone is "talking in tongues" doesn't neccessarily mean that is of God, does it? Maybe she discerned that it wasn't of God. ?? And maybe she was searching through her purse because she was trying to find her pills that she forgot to take? And if she didn't take them she would have ended up in physical trouble?I'm just saying... ya never know. peace.

  I understand your consideration of the situation since I wasn't very descriptive; but one, I knew the person and she knew it was God also.

Two, your spirit bears witness with His Spirit when the gifts are in operation, since it is the SAME Spirit. Contrary to popular belief, He did not leave us at the mercy of anyone just wanting to spout gibberish for whatever reason.

Three, that was word of knowledge that was given to me pertaining to their situation, that led the way for a deliverance later that day. God was not judging the person in that situation, but judging the spirit controlling the flesh of that person, and as His judgments are unto victory, victory was given later in the day.

God didn't give "knowing" gifts like that to embarrass or belittle our brethren with. In fact, the gifts operate thru love and where the motive of the heart in the operation of it is not right, the gifts will not even operate at all, until repentance comes from the person possessing the gift (ask me how I KNOW ). It's like a water faucet; He can and does, turn it "off" at will. Blessings....

[legoman]

This is the fear we are talking about:

Fear = Respect = Reverence.

This is not unlike the fear a small child has for their parents.  Even though the parents love the child and the child loves the parents, and the child knows all this, the child has a little bit of fear for her parents. She knows her parents have the power to discipline her, which leads to this fear.  It also helps to motivate the child to do the right thing - there is a fear of disappointing her parents, and a fear of the shame that happens when she is sent to the corner for a timeout.

[legoman]

Wow I just saw this verse.  Check it out!

Psalm 145:19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

He will save those that fear him!  But who will fear him?  I already posted these verses:

Deut 28:10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you.

Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?


EVERYONE will fear the Lord!  He will save them all!

It just doesn't get any plainer than that folks!

Amen.

[IceDash]

Wow I just saw this verse.  Check it out!

Psalm 145:19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

He will save those that fear him!  But who will fear him?  I already posted these verses:

Deut 28:10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you.

Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?


EVERYONE will fear the Lord!  He will save them all!

It just doesn't get any plainer than that folks!

Amen.

Yeah but I don't get why the bible where Paul said "Love is not jealous, selfish and throw out fear"

[legoman]

Yeah but I don't get why the bible where Paul said "Love is not jealous, selfish and throw out fear"

Which verse IceDash?  Are you talking about 1 Cor 13 because I don't see "fear" in there.

However I think there are two kinds of fear mentioned in the bible.

1.  Fear = respect, reverance.
2.  Fear = cowardly, scared, timid.

Look at this:
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear [phobeo] thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Remember Rev 21:8 we just looked at in another thread:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful [deilos], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Does that mean because everyone fears the Lord, that everyone is going into the Lake of Fire?  NO.  The word "fearful" here is from the greek "deilos" which means timid or cowardly.  In Rev 15:4 it is talking about respect or reverence (greek: phobeo).

Legoman

[sparrow]

I understand your consideration of the situation since I wasn't very descriptive; but one, I knew the person and she knew it was God also.

Two, your spirit bears witness with His Spirit when the gifts are in operation, since it is the SAME Spirit. Contrary to popular belief, He did not leave us at the mercy of anyone just wanting to spout gibberish for whatever reason.

Three, that was word of knowledge that was given to me pertaining to their situation, that led the way for a deliverance later that day. God was not judging the person in that situation, but judging the spirit controlling the flesh of that person, and as His judgments are unto victory, victory was given later in the day.

God didn't give "knowing" gifts like that to embarrass or belittle our brethren with. In fact, the gifts operate thru love and where the motive of the heart in the operation of it is not right, the gifts will not even operate at all, until repentance comes from the person possessing the gift (ask me how I KNOW ). It's like a water faucet; He can and does, turn it "off" at will. Blessings....

Ok, but while she was rummaging through her purse, why were you having your mind on what she was doing? Weren't you basically doing the same thing she was doing? Having your focus somewhere else other than where you think the focus should have been...

(not picking on you, Cardinal...    just telling you the first thing that popped in my head when I read what you wrote, that's all.)

In all seriousness... your original post left a lot to the imagination.

[sparrow]

I see "fear" of the lord...
as in "RESPECT", being "in AWE"... "reverance"...


You can't respect a being who is going to create humans, stick them in a mixed-up world, then whichever humans don't "choose" him, he will torture for all eternity. (or at the least annihilate them.)


Just like the command to "love God with all of your heart..."

How can you possibly LOVE a being who MIGHT fry your mother/daughter/sister/husband/wife.best friend, etc. for all eternity because said person wasn't a "Believer" ???

How are you to love your neighbor, in a scenario like this?

You can't.

It is IMPOSSIBLE.
Anyone who says they love the God who is capable of casting their loved ones into eternal torment is a bold-faced LIAR.

There is NO FEAR in love.

A person who loves out of fear, does not LOVE...at all.


The two great commandments are telling us something.

[IceDash]

I see "fear" of the lord...
as in "RESPECT", being "in AWE"... "reverance"...


You can't respect a being who is going to create humans, stick them in a mixed-up world, then whichever humans don't "choose" him, he will torture for all eternity. (or at the least annihilate them.)


Just like the command to "love God with all of your heart..."

How can you possibly LOVE a being who MIGHT fry your mother/daughter/sister/husband/wife.best friend, etc. for all eternity because said person wasn't a "Believer" ???

How are you to love your neighbor, in a scenario like this?

You can't.

It is IMPOSSIBLE.
Anyone who says they love the God who is capable of casting their loved ones into eternal torment is a bold-faced LIAR.

There is NO FEAR in love.

A person who loves out of fear, does not LOVE...at all.


The two great commandments are telling us something.

sadly, some people still love the God who reject people who he knew they reject God (doesn't make sense lol) anyway, tell that to Sherry, the onwer of crazy website I just post in other topic "Paul's under fire"

[Cardinal]

I understand your consideration of the situation since I wasn't very descriptive; but one, I knew the person and she knew it was God also.

Two, your spirit bears witness with His Spirit when the gifts are in operation, since it is the SAME Spirit. Contrary to popular belief, He did not leave us at the mercy of anyone just wanting to spout gibberish for whatever reason.

Three, that was word of knowledge that was given to me pertaining to their situation, that led the way for a deliverance later that day. God was not judging the person in that situation, but judging the spirit controlling the flesh of that person, and as His judgments are unto victory, victory was given later in the day.

God didn't give "knowing" gifts like that to embarrass or belittle our brethren with. In fact, the gifts operate thru love and where the motive of the heart in the operation of it is not right, the gifts will not even operate at all, until repentance comes from the person possessing the gift (ask me how I KNOW ). It's like a water faucet; He can and does, turn it "off" at will. Blessings....

Ok, but while she was rummaging through her purse, why were you having your mind on what she was doing? Weren't you basically doing the same thing she was doing? Having your focus somewhere else other than where you think the focus should have been...

(not picking on you, Cardinal...    just telling you the first thing that popped in my head when I read what you wrote, that's all.)

In all seriousness... your original post left a lot to the imagination.

   Hi Sparrow, yes I know it did; that's why I explained more. And as to "why" this time; because HE drew my attention to what was manifesting. I learned to ignore things all day long to focus on hearing Him (such as during children playing loudly in the next room during Bible studies), but when a different spirit is manifesting and HE draws my attention to it to zero in on it to deal with it, it's a whole new ballgame. It's like He blocks everything else out but that.

My friends and I used to only half joke, that when He is moving with us, they could drop a bomb in our backyard while we were praying for someone, and we'd still be going, "Ok, the Lord is showing me this....."  That's the best way I can explain how it operates.  Blessings....

[sparrow]

sadly, some people still love the God who reject people who he knew they reject God (doesn't make sense lol) anyway, tell that to Sherry, the onwer of crazy website I just post in other topic "Paul's under fire"

ID... they don't love.
That was my whole point.

They CLAIM to love God.
But their idea of LOVE is not true.

Ok, I have one example.  Some people LOVE God... because they have enemies, and they have vengenance in their heart and they see God saving THEM but DESTROYING their enemies. That in turn, makes them "love" God. But do you see, it is not real love, it is a twisted love that is not love at ALL.

Saying you LOVE, and ACTUALLY Loving... are two different things.

Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking.
It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
I Corinthians 13:4-8

[sparrow]

My friends and I used to only half joke, that when He is moving with us, they could drop a bomb in our backyard while we were praying for someone, and we'd still be going, "Ok, the Lord is showing me this....."  That's the best way I can explain how it operates.  Blessings....

Well, as they say, it's different for everyone.
Peace.

[legoman]

IceDash, just found your verse, I think:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear [phobos]  in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

In this case, again it is talking about terror or dread, not respect & reverance.  The greek word phobos has the primary meaning of "terror or dread", although it does have a secondary meaning of "reverance for one's husband".  Similar to the greek word phobeo in Rev 15:4.  phobeo is derived from phobos - both have the meaning of "fear" - it seems the concept of "fear" has multiple meanings in the greek too.

sparrow, great posts 

[IceDash]

sadly, some people still love the God who reject people who he knew they reject God (doesn't make sense lol) anyway, tell that to Sherry, the onwer of crazy website I just post in other topic "Paul's under fire"

ID... they don't love.
That was my whole point.

They CLAIM to love God.
But their idea of LOVE is not true.

Ok, I have one example.  Some people LOVE God... because they have enemies, and they have vengenance in their heart and they see God saving THEM but DESTROYING their enemies. That in turn, makes them "love" God. But do you see, it is not real love, it is a twisted love that is not love at ALL.

Saying you LOVE, and ACTUALLY Loving... are two different things.

Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking.
It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
I Corinthians 13:4-8

How come they trying to "win soul" or saving someone else's soul, fearing those will be burn forever

Hmmm, I may be wrong but this is stupid.....because the reason is how can you love a God and trying to save someone's soul from hell?

It's like you love Saddam Hussein but he told everyone if you don't follow his way, he will kill you or your family, so you work hard to convince someone to follow Saddam because you love that person and want him to stay alive....


, now that stupid...

[Cardinal]

  Yes, I see Sparrow's points too. It's sad that most of the ET's think they are loving God by wanting to see His "will" done in toasting everyone. Because of the scriptural error, they err. What short time I was in the churches, those "us four and no more" speeches used to bother me. Blessings....

[sparrow]

It goes far beyond all that, though.

The idea of "love" is lost on everyone.

We will not truly know love, TRULY know it... with all of our being until we meet Love (God) face to face.


We toss theword "love" around and we use it for so many different things...
we use it out of insecurity and fear.
we use it to manipulate.
we use it to puff up ourselves.

The WORD "love" is really... just that... it's just a word.


The two commandments...
Love God
Love your neighbor.

That is IT.
All this other religious Gobbledy gook that people spend hours upon hours upon hours TRYING to reach some GOAL, is just CRAP. All the debates and endless conversations and the "God told me this" "God told me that" over and over and over ad nauseum. And these people and those people and the churches, and whatever else, and the end times and  the prophecies and this this and the that....


For God's sake.


LOVE!
GO AND LOVE!

Learn what LOVE IS.


We're here to understand what LOVE is, to differentiate between love and what is NOT love so that we may live in harmony with God for an eternity.

That's all this schoolyard called earth is.

Why does it have to be so difficult?

No-one is better than anyone else.
We are all the same.

Back to the basics.

It is all inside of us.
And it always HAS been inside of us.
Since the moment we were born.

No-one needs religion or the rest of this man-made gobbledy gook.

I'm off to work.
have a nice day.

[legoman]

It goes far beyond all that, though.

The idea of "love" is lost on everyone.

We will not truly know love, TRULY know it... with all of our being until we meet Love (God) face to face.


We toss theword "love" around and we use it for so many different things...
we use it out of insecurity and fear.
we use it to manipulate.
we use it to puff up ourselves.

The WORD "love" is really... just that... it's just a word.


The two commandments...
Love God
Love your neighbor.

That is IT.
All this other religious Gobbledy gook that people spend hours upon hours upon hours TRYING to reach some GOAL, is just CRAP. All the debates and endless conversations and the "God told me this" "God told me that" over and over and over ad nauseum. And these people and those people and the churches, and whatever else, and the end times and  the prophecies and this this and the that....


For God's sake.


LOVE!
GO AND LOVE!

Learn what LOVE IS.


We're here to understand what LOVE is, to differentiate between love and what is NOT love so that we may live in harmony with God for an eternity.

That's all this schoolyard called earth is.

Why does it have to be so difficult?

No-one is better than anyone else.
We are all the same.

Back to the basics.

It is all inside of us.
And it always HAS been inside of us.
Since the moment we were born.

No-one needs religion or the rest of this man-made gobbledy gook.

I'm off to work.
have a nice day.

Wow good post sparrow

The whole thing is messed up because of the eternal hell concept.  With an eternal hell, it is illogical to believe that God is really love.  Like you said in your previous post sparrow, if you believe in hell, then your "love" is just so you can save your own butt and watch your enemies burn in hell.

Its so sad and revealing.  Over at CARM where I've been reading a bit and posting less, there is some really twisted thinking going on.  Some people have really thought about hell alot, rationalized it, made it logical in their own mind.  They have wrung the life out of the scriptures and reduced the gospel to the point where they have justified God torturing many for an eternity - and its fair and glorious that God does this.  The gospel essentially becomes "you were lucky enough to be chosen, therefore you can tell everyone else they are wrong" or "God would rather not force (influence) you to love him, so He lets you burn forever instead"

The logic goes like this: God is good, therefore anything God does is good, therefore it is good to torment people FOREVER.

They will defend this and justify God hating people forever, and call you a blasphemer for suggesting God could save all.

I look at this and wonder where the love is.  But then I also have to look at myself.  These people, as bizarre and twisted as their thinking is, have been led to believe this for a reason - they have been deceived.  I myself have been (still am maybe?) deceived in the past.  But can I really say I would love these people - these people who blaspheme God's very purpose?  It is so frustrating.  We are to love our neighbors and our enemies.

Legoman "still learning"

[sparrow]

Wow good post sparrow

The whole thing is messed up because of the eternal hell concept.  With an eternal hell, it is illogical to believe that God is really love.  Like you said in your previous post sparrow, if you believe in hell, then your "love" is just so you can save your own butt and watch your enemies burn in hell.

Its so sad and revealing.  Over at CARM where I've been reading a bit and posting less, there is some really twisted thinking going on.  Some people have really thought about hell alot, rationalized it, made it logical in their own mind.  They have wrung the life out of the scriptures and reduced the gospel to the point where they have justified God torturing many for an eternity - and its fair and glorious that God does this.  The gospel essentially becomes "you were lucky enough to be chosen, therefore you can tell everyone else they are wrong" or "God would rather not force (influence) you to love him, so He lets you burn forever instead"

The logic goes like this: God is good, therefore anything God does is good, therefore it is good to torment people FOREVER.

They will defend this and justify God hating people forever, and call you a blasphemer for suggesting God could save all.

I look at this and wonder where the love is.  But then I also have to look at myself.  These people, as bizarre and twisted as their thinking is, have been led to believe this for a reason - they have been deceived.  I myself have been (still am maybe?) deceived in the past.  But can I really say I would love these people - these people who blaspheme God's very purpose?  It is so frustrating.  We are to love our neighbors and our enemies.

Legoman "still learning"

And y'know Legoman, to be honest, my last post... I wasn't even thinking about those who believe in hell.
I was thinking more about those who DO believe that God saves all.
I was thinking of basically everyone.
Actually, almost ESPECIALLY those who believe the truth about God saving all.

Too many people have killed the child inside of them.
We have made it too difficult, these man-made puzzles...
the endless R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N. the endless banter.

[martincisneros]

I'm not too sure that much of the Church has lost it's childlikeness.  Now, those that have dogmas but no real study and practice of the Word and the Spirit, then they've unquestionably lost the childlike.  But it recently occured to me that children are not only more prone to be trusting, but they're also the ones the most heavy burdened with homework and that's all the Bible's ever prescribed with Proverbs 4, Mark 4, and all of the related passages related to reaping and saying as Dad says (Colossians 3:17).  I've heard some people try to balk that the systematizing of the truth of God's Word isn't childlike, but is it only adults that learn their multiplication tables?  There's no difference.  It's usually children that have all of the academic burdens from age 3 to age 36 minimally.  It's usually children that have to practice, practice, practice, and practice, and practice some more when they're past the point of wishing to throw the piano through the window or are wishing to give up the dance and martial arts classes so badly.  There was no change in contexts between Jesus affirmations towards children and His determined purpose that we continue in His Word in the precise same way as He continues in the Word of our Father (John 8).