Author Topic: Paul's under fire.  (Read 3583 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2009, 06:51:36 PM »
Cardinal, not everyone reads Hebrew. KJV peeps possibly even claim KJV OT is better than the Hebrew version.
Personally I believe the Hebrew is closer to the original. Partly because I 'know' in what way it was copied. Partly because it's virtually impossible to translate 100% correctly between languages. That's even true for modern langues that are based on the same core principles. OT is an ancient language + totally diffrent approach to language/grammar.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2009, 07:55:00 PM »
 :cloud9: I think you misunderstood me. I don't "read" Hebrew in the sense of being able to read it like it was a first or even a second language. I mean, I investigate the Hebrew on my own and from the meanings of the words (or possible meanings according to translators), or even the meanings of the letters themselves individually (there's a triplicate chain code in there), I often see the "God thought" or principle that He was intending by finding that pattern again somewhere else.

I have found over the years that He has done things a certain way and left "clues". If you see a word used once or twice ONLY, that is a word to pay attention to. So is the part of scripture where ANY Hebrew word is used for the first time.

In our western mindsets, we think of them as simply books. God thinks of the whole as a tapestry He is weaving with the scripture verses content, as a single principle. So if you find a thread of "red" (salvation) in principle in Genesis, you can find that same principle in every book in the bible all the way to Revelation, because there are no broken "threads". The wording may be different, but the PRINCIPLE is the same.

He taught me to study it this way (in the beginning it was me, one other person, and Him and that was IT), and it is what enables me to see patterns more readily. So you're not studying lines of scriptures, you're studying threads of principles. But the thing is, because the mindset is so different from ours, principles are sometimes "hidden" in plain sight, in the words themselves.

For instance, the Hebrew word for color, in the phrase in Gen.,"and the color of the manna was as the color of bdellium", also means eye or fountain and relates to the phrase "apple of His eye", because apple relates both to round and to color as does eye. The fountain they are talking about is round, could even be like a waterspout, or if above land, like a whirlwind. All these things are related, but you could not in a million years see that in the English language. THIS is why I study the Hebrew.

I am not a fan of the Greek for this reason also, and will look for the words in Hebrew even if they are in the NT because I am 99% sure the whole NT was at one time written in Hebrew, just because of the "threads". Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2009, 08:04:54 PM »
If you see a word used once or twice ONLY, that is a word to pay attention to. So is the part of scripture where ANY Hebrew word is used for the first time.

My Bible software can find such words (I think)
Would it be useful to generate and post a list with words that are only used less than 5 times in OT?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2009, 08:11:49 PM »
 :cloud9: Sure would be to me...... :thumbsup: I usually just stumble upon them in other word studies.....Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009, 08:55:49 PM »


I didn't know that about Jabcat.

Which part (or all of it  :laughing7:?)   I just believe a) God has never allowed Jesus to be completely hidden (even in the OT), and/because b) there's always been a "remnant"...whether that's one or one hundred, I don't know. 

And I know some disagree, in that they think UR is "more important" than believing on Jesus, even if that believer still only has an understanding of ET.  I personally see it differently, in that, I believe God has "bothered" to go through the process of choosing many down through the ages, sending His Spirit to give them faith to believe, washing them in the blood of His Son, filling them with His Spirit...but still not yet have revealed UR to them...as important as I think UR is, I believe if I had to pick one central theme of the Bible, that's always been there, only if recognized by the remnant;  it would have to be Jesus, the Lamb slain for our salvation...the cross.   My  :2c:.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 09:03:45 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2009, 09:09:47 PM »
:cloud9: Sure would be to me...... :thumbsup: I usually just stumble upon them in other word studies.....Blessings....
Generating the list for the complete OT took 3 seconds. But weeding them out will take a loooooong time. Much quite common words.
Anyway I enclosed the list because it' sto big to post as a message.
If you have idea's how to clean up the list just ask and I'll try.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2009, 09:15:16 PM »
as important as I think UR is, I believe if I had to pick one central theme of the Bible, that's always been there, only if recognized by the remnant;  it would have to be Jesus, the Lamb slain for our salvation...the cross.   My  :2c:.

 :cloud9: Me too, Jab...it's like anything else, it's easy to get out of balance over and make IT the "big deal", and HE is the plumb line, nothing else. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2009, 09:18:10 PM »
Generating the list for the complete OT took 3 seconds. But weeding them out will take a loooooong time. Much quite common words.
Anyway I enclosed the list because it' so big to post as a message.
If you have idea's how to clean up the list just ask and I'll try.

 :cloud9: Thanks. Yes, I thought about it later, I knew there would be lots of common words in there that wouldn't apply. I wouldn't have a clue how to weed them out unless you could do it based on the number of letters in the words, say like, only do ones with 4 or 5 letters? Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2009, 09:22:22 PM »
Forgot to ask. What Bible do you prefer?
I have about 20 Hebrew versions.
Some written in with Hebrew fonts. Some transliterated version etc.

4 or 5 letter long. Will try to generate such a list. What exactly is the use of it?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2009, 09:44:56 PM »
as important as I think UR is, I believe if I had to pick one central theme of the Bible, that's always been there, only if recognized by the remnant;  it would have to be Jesus, the Lamb slain for our salvation...the cross.   My  :2c:.

 :cloud9: Me too, Jab...it's like anything else, it's easy to get out of balance over and make IT the "big deal", and HE is the plumb line, nothing else. Blessings....

Thanks Card.  Without Jesus, we wouldn't have UR..He holds the keys!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 01:55:12 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Doc

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2009, 09:49:13 PM »
It sounds to me like these people are off their bean. If you take out Paul, you take out about 50% of the New Testament. I don't think even the Catholics could've been that reckless, even if it could be proven that what Paul says supports the "Catholic way", which I very much doubt.   :laughing7:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2009, 11:33:58 PM »
Forgot to ask. What Bible do you prefer?
I have about 20 Hebrew versions.
Some written in with Hebrew fonts. Some transliterated version etc.

4 or 5 letter long. Will try to generate such a list. What exactly is the use of it?

 :cloud9: There seems to be something "special" about words He uses very infrequently. I have found many nuggets that way. I use KJV. Sometimes for just reading, I read a Messianic text with restored names. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2009, 02:37:46 AM »
I'm not sure anyone here is saying Paul should be taken out. Maybe I missd something though.

Offline Doc

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2009, 03:20:54 AM »
http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/problem.htm


Wow.....read it and tell what you think?

How do you explain this:

  Paul declared he sinned because of the Law (this passage is really a piece of work), Romans 7:7-13.  James told us that's not so, James 1:13-14.

Paul told slaves to be obedient to their masters, Ephesians 6:5.  He re-enslaved Onesimus, Philemon 10-16.  This is in direct conflict to the law, which provides freedom from slavery, Deuteronomy 23:15-16, Jeremiah 34:13-17.  If Paul had been obedient to the Law, Onesimus would have been free.  But, as we see from Paul's action, he sent Onesimus back into bondage.  Yahweh's Law brings freedom; Paul's freedom brings bondage.

Paul pretends to be humble before Philemon, stating that he has written him with his own hand, and that if Philemon has been wronged, he (Paul) will repay (the debt), Philemon 1:19-20.  He then adds a cheap shot stating that Philemon "owes" him.  In other words, Paul clearly states that he will not say the very backhanded comment he does indeed say.  Paul's words stand on their head.

   Paul preached his own gospel, Romans 16:25, I Corinthians 15:1, Galatians 1:6-7, I Timothy 2:8, 3:10.

Paul 'cursed' those who preached any other gospel than his, Galatians 1:8-9.  Therefore he's cursing James, Peter, and John, whom he mocks in Galatians Chapter 2.

If you think this is blasphemy, think about this:  The Catholic Church is the organization that made the decisions about which books would or would not be included in (their) Bible.  The Catholic Church made this decision for you.  And, lo and behold, it's Pauline Doctrine that supports their existence, not the teachings of Yahushua.  This should send shivers up your spine.

Paul's writings are filled with far too many examples that conflict with Yahushua's teachings.  More importantly, where is Yahushua to be found in Paul's epistles?  Paul clearly denied Torah Law.  Yahushua clearly said the Law does not pass away.  Do you believe Paul or Yahushua?  If you have to think about this, you're in trouble. 



Wow, I don't see any love in this one but "fear" It's look like Sherry is saying "God is not love, he will destroy you if you follow paul"

Can anyone who understand the bible and history explain this problem?

I was referring to the article linked in this post, NW. I don't think anyone here said that either (except in summary of the article).
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Paul's under fire.
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2009, 09:43:19 AM »
Yeah I see. Again I this k the best thing to do is to let the holy sport guide us in his writings and to keep in mind what pauls letters reAlly were...letters.