The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)

[Paul Hazelwood]

One of the stumbling blocks is because this word associated with God is not all there is to it and the typical discussion over the aionios God tends to make people want to go back and forth from one definition or the other and hope one of them is right.

While I understand the demand for this word age, it limits what is there.  So then when sharing our faith we then go off the goal and dig in and start defending the translations that have helped us, so this post isn't to negate what definitions can do with people it is growing beyond that.


Olam is translated age, but the intention of that word is to convey exactly what people find troubling.  It is telling us that anything concerning God finished plan is a time far off, or something not easily perceived.   It is to say that our hope is in faith and love and that even if we cannot see it, even it  "seems" like our trial is everlasting  it is not.

This aionios God has an existence that is imperceptible because we cannot perceive something that just "IS".   What ages may end, still is not the end, so God is indeed everlasting and eternal and so are we. 

God talks of the ages that end, yet a new heaven and new earth is promised, so we cannot perceive even the ending of our life to see that.

We have no choice but to hope for that which is unseen and a time far off.   The issue is if a person believes it, or has to work out the definitions all the time in order to feel something. 

This is not meant towards any posting here, I just had a thought about the thread title and wrote this.   If someone comes at me with definitions,  I don't have to defend the translations anymore, I see where both words fit in context with hope and perception.

It's something an argument cannot make me question anymore.  God "IS" and if God IS LOVE, then the only logical outcome is that one day we will also  "BE".

[Cat]

I'm still struggling with the whole 'aion', 'aionios' translation issue.  I just can't get my head around the understanding of 'aionios' life that Jesus talks about.  I can uderstand God being the aionios God, because He deals in time with Ages.  The life that Jesus was offering was life without end.  He conveys this when He says 'so that you may always be where I am' when talking of a place He will prepare for His disciples.  He talks of the water that will never make you thirst again, and the bread that you will never be hungry again.  John 20:28- 'never perish'.  So you get the impression He is talking about eternal life.  Why use 'aionios' and not 'athanatos'.  If the word 'aion' means a period of time, then could it not mean a period of time without end depending on the context of the verse?   

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm still struggling with the whole 'aion', 'aionios' translation issue. 

From my experience, the translational issue is solved by seeing the literal and figurative in separate contexts.  Otherwise then we have to start slighting translators and theologins for not getting it right.   Aion most likely does mean "literally" and age of time with a beginning and end and have not had a problem with that.   However, then someone uses the verse that is translated aionios to "everlasting" and the debate starts.   Figuratively is pertains to the perpetuity of time and that means we cannot perceive the ending of the ages, they "seem" like forever.  A trial or correction "seems" like it will go on and on and on.

I just can't get my head around the understanding of 'aionios' life that Jesus talks about. 

We can live a life pertaining to an age of time while still being everlasting creatures.  The bible talks of a new heaven and a new earth.  So this period of heaven and earth will end but a new one begins, so thats how we are "literally" aionios beings.

to make my point, you cannot perceive that, so it "appears" or "seems" like an everlasting struggle may be present.

  If the word 'aion' means a period of time, then could it not mean a period of time without end depending on the context of the verse?   

It certainly can have a different perspective concerning time depending on the verse. 

One use of aion is "perpetuity of time"  there are those that will then argue that definition incorrect and again my point is to get out of the business of arguing terms and read the implications of scripture and see the ability for Gods word to convey a literal and figurative context.   People still argue and you do not have to take my word for it, but I see a picture that doesn't have to argue whos translated what correctly and the message works together between the two for encouragement and hope.

[Doc]

I think Paul is on the right track here. I know it's hard to understand, but one of the things that we all easily get caught up in is leaning on our own understanding. Let the Spirit speak the truth to you and through you, and then you'll see that precise meanings of words lose some of their importance. I'm not saying they are not important. If you're confused, talk to God about it. That's what I did back when I was doing all this heavy studying on this and other topics. The bottom line is, men are always going to have their opinions and they will vary and conflict, but God will always tell you the truth.

I'll tell you what happened with me. I was laying in bed one night with all this stuff swimming around in my head, and I was so confused and conflicted because I was trying to lean on my own understanding of the arguments and so forth. So I just said; Lord, what is this? Is this true? His answer was a question. Who do you think I Am? (I swear I "heard" a bit of a chuckle) You know me well enough to know my character... Does the teaching you've had so far line up with what you know of me? Not the 'knowledge' you've been taught, but what I've given to you...
This line of questioning was so clear and brought so much peace to me. Sometimes things you've been shown in the spirit are hard to put into words. Anyway, ask Him to show you. He will. 

[Cat]

Paul and Doc- thanks for your help.  I've just begun a mammoth study of the Bible.  I bought some marker pens yesterday and as I read the Bible, I'm going to mark four main categories: 1- scriptures that seem to imply man's choices, free-will and authority, 2- scriptures that imply God's will is dominant over man's etc, 3- scriptures that mention the future restoration or Kingdom e.g Jesus, resurrection, living 'forever' etc. 4 - scriptures that mention the dead, grave, pit etc.  (These are the four main categories that I am studying at the moment).

By doing this I'm hoping to start afresh and I can check words used e.g I've just got up to Gen 3:22 and my amplified Bible says: '...and live forever'.  I've just checked the concordance and the Hebrew word is 'owlam'.  When I come to a word like this or something that is from one of the above categories, I can check the words via the concordance and hopefully get a better understanding of the meaning etc.  I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year, but it will be worth it.  (I haven't read the Bible properly for a few years, so it will be good).   

[Paul Hazelwood]

  I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year

That will be like a universe speed record or something.   

[legoman]

Paul and Doc make good points here. 

I tend to go with the view that aionios just means pertaining to the ages, and aion is a long period of time.  Metaphorically it could seem like forever, some time duration that we cannot imagine, but practically it is an age that will end.

So possibly there is a metaphorical vs literal context here.  However I do believe that perhaps the translators were under pressure to put a certain bias into the text (for political control or whatever) - perhaps by order of the king ie. THERE SHALL BE HELL in the bible or OFF WITH YOUR HEAD YOU HERETIC!  This is just IMHO - I haven't researched that too much, but from what little I have read it seems the translators may have been under duress, so I can't fault them too much.  But you can imagine the benefits of having hell around for the King and Country.  The church commanded great armies, without actually having an army itself.  How is that possible?  Political control.  Anyway that is another story...


I look at it like this.  Not everyone will get aionios life.  But everyone will get eternal life.

We have been so brainwashed by church teachings, that it is hard to unwrap them sometimes.

Take this verse, the most basic concept of our faith:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal [aionios] life.


Is this verse describing the ultimate fate of all mankind?  That is what the church would have you believe.  Yet it is only speaking of aionios life - life for the eons.  So a few will get life for the eons, while the rest will get punishment for the eons (Matthew 25:46).  But is that the end?  No.

Eventually everyone will be immortal.  The corruptible must put on incorruption (ie. be made righteous), and the mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor 15).  We will all be made righteous eventually and then immortal so then we will have eternal life.

So John 3:16 is not talking about giving us eternal life. 

John 10:28 has the same issues with misinterpretation:
I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [not in the aion] perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Notice here eternal is again aionios, but also "never" is really "not to the aion" - so we have a translation bias again.

This is my understanding:  Those who receive aionios life, also have eternal life at that point, because they will not be lost, and will never die - they have already put on incorruption and immortality.  They are the chosen (many are called but few chosen) - they are the elect.

However, everyone else will only put on incorruption and immortality after the great white throne judgement.  They missed out on the aionios life, instead got aionios punishment (its really aionios chastisement - teaching).  After their judgement is complete they too will have eternal life.

Hope that helps clear up the difference between "aionios" life and "eternal" life.

Legoman

[legoman]

  I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year

That will be like a universe speed record or something.   

  LOL 

At least after a year you might understand that God really is love. 

[Nathan]

Paul and Doc- thanks for your help.  I've just begun a mammoth study of the Bible.  I bought some marker pens yesterday and as I read the Bible, I'm going to mark four main categories: 1- scriptures that seem to imply man's choices, free-will and authority, 2- scriptures that imply God's will is dominant over man's etc, 3- scriptures that mention the future restoration or Kingdom e.g Jesus, resurrection, living 'forever' etc. 4 - scriptures that mention the dead, grave, pit etc.  (These are the four main categories that I am studying at the moment).

By doing this I'm hoping to start afresh and I can check words used e.g I've just got up to Gen 3:22 and my amplified Bible says: '...and live forever'.  I've just checked the concordance and the Hebrew word is 'owlam'.  When I come to a word like this or something that is from one of the above categories, I can check the words via the concordance and hopefully get a better understanding of the meaning etc.  I'm praying all the time that God will show me His truth. It's going to take maybe a year, but it will be worth it.  (I haven't read the Bible properly for a few years, so it will be good).   

Good luck with that.

[Cat]

Hi guys, am I being too optimistic hoping to do it in a year?     Well, as long as it takes then.....

Legoman, you said: "Not everyone will get aionios life.  But everyone will get eternal life".  This is why I'm struggling: all the stuff I read about universalism, says that God works with humans through the ages.  Some say 5 ages, some say 7?? So those who lose out on the Kingdom Age will be resurrected after then and live in the next age or is it the one after that one??  Then again, they will be punished during this 'age' or part of it, so maybe this doesn't constitute 'life' even though they will be alive??   Can you see how it all gets rather confusing when you take 'aionios' to mean for a set period of time.  On the otherhand, if it can mean 'endless' then there is no confusion.  The 'endless' punishment doesn't have to mean being tortured forever, but rather, God's judgment on sin (not the sinner) is 'endless'. 

John 3:16 is comparing 'perishing' with 'aionios'.  We are living in one of the ages and so have life pertaining to this age surely?  We are still perishing during this age so Jesus was offering something that implies 'forever'.  Jesus didn't elaborate as to what came AFTER the aionios life if we are to understand it as temporary.  Perishing means your life is temporary, whereas Jesus was offering a kind of life where you wouldn't perish, or so it seems......something doesn't seem right here......

[legoman]

Hi guys, am I being too optimistic hoping to do it in a year?     Well, as long as it takes then.....

LOL we are just kidding you Cat.  Really though it will take a lifetime (and beyond) to learn the whole truth.  But you should be able to get a good grasp on the basics in one year.  I've only been studying for about one year myself - but who knows I could be way out of whack 

Legoman, you said: "Not everyone will get aionios life.  But everyone will get eternal life".  This is why I'm struggling: all the stuff I read about universalism, says that God works with humans through the ages.  Some say 5 ages, some say 7?? So those who lose out on the Kingdom Age will be resurrected after then and live in the next age or is it the one after that one??  Then again, they will be punished during this 'age' or part of it, so maybe this doesn't constitute 'life' even though they will be alive??   Can you see how it all gets rather confusing when you take 'aionios' to mean for a set period of time.  On the otherhand, if it can mean 'endless' then there is no confusion.  The 'endless' punishment doesn't have to mean being tortured forever, but rather, God's judgment on sin (not the sinner) is 'endless'. 

To be honest, its difficult to determine exactly how many ages there are to come.  We know there are at least 2 more ages coming because the bible speaks of (plural) "ages to come".  I'm fairly certain the aionios life will start with the millenium with Christ (aka the thousand years).  I'm less certain if the aionios punishment also starts in that age, or if it starts in the next age.  I'm also not sure if the aionios punishment goes beyond one age or not.  Also I'm not certain but possibly each person will get a different number of ages (or just different lengths of times) in the lake of fire, as appropriate.

In the grand scheme of things these are just minor details.  Some will get life for the ages, others will get chastisement for the ages.

What I do know for sure is that all the ages will end in the "consumation of the ages" (1 cor 10:11) - then God will be all in all. 

I am also 100% sure that the lake of fire is not literal - meant for torture.  In fact the lake of fire is most likely relating to those who have the aionios life. 

1 Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

What do you think God's chosen elect will be doing in this time of aionios life?  Sitting around playing harps on clouds?!?    No they will be rulers and judges and priests.  Who will they be ruling and judging and preaching too?  Why everyone else of course!  In fact, they will be the very instruments that God & Jesus will use to bring everyone else to salvation.  We will be kings, judges, priests, and saviours.  And Jesus will be the ultimate: king of kings, judge of judges, priest of priests, saviour of saviours.

And of course the saints will need preparation & training for this monumental task of judging the world in righteousness.  Some of that preparation is happening right now.  But some of it may need to happen in the next age with Christ, before the unbelievers are resurrected.  I'm not sure.  Someone else please chime in if you think I'm way off base. 

John 3:16 is comparing 'perishing' with 'aionios'.  We are living in one of the ages and so have life pertaining to this age surely?  We are still perishing during this age so Jesus was offering something that implies 'forever'.  Jesus didn't elaborate as to what came AFTER the aionios life if we are to understand it as temporary.  Perishing means your life is temporary, whereas Jesus was offering a kind of life where you wouldn't perish, or so it seems......something doesn't seem right here......

Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?

Legoman

[Doc]

Hi guys, am I being too optimistic hoping to do it in a year?     Well, as long as it takes then.....

Legoman, you said: "Not everyone will get aionios life.  But everyone will get eternal life".  This is why I'm struggling: all the stuff I read about universalism, says that God works with humans through the ages.  Some say 5 ages, some say 7?? So those who lose out on the Kingdom Age will be resurrected after then and live in the next age or is it the one after that one??  Then again, they will be punished during this 'age' or part of it, so maybe this doesn't constitute 'life' even though they will be alive??   Can you see how it all gets rather confusing when you take 'aionios' to mean for a set period of time.  On the otherhand, if it can mean 'endless' then there is no confusion.  The 'endless' punishment doesn't have to mean being tortured forever, but rather, God's judgment on sin (not the sinner) is 'endless'. 

John 3:16 is comparing 'perishing' with 'aionios'.  We are living in one of the ages and so have life pertaining to this age surely?  We are still perishing during this age so Jesus was offering something that implies 'forever'.  Jesus didn't elaborate as to what came AFTER the aionios life if we are to understand it as temporary.  Perishing means your life is temporary, whereas Jesus was offering a kind of life where you wouldn't perish, or so it seems......something doesn't seem right here......

I'm going to throw yet another spanner or wrench (depending on what country you're from) into this for you Cat. Just what is the Kingdom? Jesus said the Kingdom of God does not come by observation, but that the Kingdom is within you (us).

So we only miss out on the kingdom life until we "get it". Now, there may be a difference as to what the situation looks like in terms of rewards, etc. if we miss it while in our physical life inhabiting these bodies vs. getting it now and once we pass on out of these physical shells, but I've not studied  that and asked Father to enlighten me on it enough to really know for sure, so I'll remain silent on that piece for the time being.

[Nathan]

The assumption is, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven is heaven . . . it's a place where we will eventually go when we die . . . but Doc, I think what you are seeing may feel it's in it's infancy stages to you . . .but I think you've been led up to the threshold of truth nonetheless.

I see the kingdom as a realm of spiritual life "in" us.  It doesn't come with observation . . . which again for me is the same as it doesn't come by flesh and blood . .by natural reasoning .  . . it's all invisible and I like the idea that "seeing" things in this kingdom we speak of is actually included in the "rewards" that are "laid up" for us . . . . the reward is that you can see the nature of truth and life and it progressively sets you free from where you currently are at.  It enables you to go deeper, reach further, be elevated higher and see greater things that your mind could never comprehend on it's own power.

there was a comment made by somebody . . .I've lost track again . . .that mentioned the irony of how you can think beyond the comprehension of your mind . . . I think that is such a cool statement.  It's like standing at the edge of the grand canyon or Niagra Falls . . .your mind is just in awe of the power and beauty, the vastness . . . In the Fathers house are many rooms . . .prepared for us to enter in . .not so that we'll feel all warm and fuzzy, but so that where Christ "is" we may also be.

We try so hard to search for him in Scriptures . . in the creation . . .in the sky . .when he's told us where he is . . .those things only "point" to another place, they are simply signs left by him so we know that he "was" there and where he "is" now.  He's in us.  Such a mystery, such a release of delight.

[legoman]

The concept of what "heaven" is, is still really confusing for me.  I used to think it was a paradise out "there" somewhere (maybe on some rock in space) where everything was beautiful - streets of gold, we could fly around and visit the universe, all physical... etc.

Now I lean more to the spiritual kingdom "in us"... though I don't know what that means exactly.  I also don't know how the aionios life fits in exactly.

It will be spiritual, not physical.  The problem is, I don't know what "spiritual" is exactly.

Legoman

[Nathan]

But that's okay . . .knowing isnt' a requirement . . . accepting is all that is asked of us.  Faith is seeing things AS THOUGH they are, accepting what you don't understand and believing in what you can not see . . . what a philosophy to build on eh?

[Doc]

The assumption is, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven is heaven . . . it's a place where we will eventually go when we die . . . but Doc, I think what you are seeing may feel it's in it's infancy stages to you . . .but I think you've been led up to the threshold of truth nonetheless.

I see the kingdom as a realm of spiritual life "in" us.  It doesn't come with observation . . . which again for me is the same as it doesn't come by flesh and blood . .by natural reasoning .  . . it's all invisible and I like the idea that "seeing" things in this kingdom we speak of is actually included in the "rewards" that are "laid up" for us . . . . the reward is that you can see the nature of truth and life and it progressively sets you free from where you currently are at.  It enables you to go deeper, reach further, be elevated higher and see greater things that your mind could never comprehend on it's own power.

there was a comment made by somebody . . .I've lost track again . . .that mentioned the irony of how you can think beyond the comprehension of your mind . . . I think that is such a cool statement.  It's like standing at the edge of the grand canyon or Niagra Falls . . .your mind is just in awe of the power and beauty, the vastness . . . In the Fathers house are many rooms . . .prepared for us to enter in . .not so that we'll feel all warm and fuzzy, but so that where Christ "is" we may also be.

We try so hard to search for him in Scriptures . . in the creation . . .in the sky . .when he's told us where he is . . .those things only "point" to another place, they are simply signs left by him so we know that he "was" there and where he "is" now.  He's in us.  Such a mystery, such a release of delight.

I think we understand each other, Nathan. 

[Cat]

I believe we can experience the Kingdom now, whilst still living in this fallen world.  As we are transformed into the likeness of Christ we live as if we were already in Jesus' physical Kingdom (which I assume is what is mentioned in Revelation and Isaiah).  So during this Age, it is spiritual, but when this age ends, and 'the Kingdom is restored to (spiritual?) Israel' Jesus will rule literally along with the first fruits - the believers.  They will rule over the people that are still alive on the earth: namely unbelivers.  The rest of the dead are resurrected after the 1000 years??  (Wouldn't it make sense to resurrect them at the beginning so they can be taught the right stuff too??)  I'm not sure of all this stuff.  What is important is that we live as citizens of Jesus' Kingdom NOW.  I read recently that some believe the Kingdom isn't literal but spiritual??  I tend to see it as ultimately being literal AS WELL AS spiritual.

How can 'aionios' life only start at the millenium?  We are in an Age now aren't we?
Legoman said: "Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?" - this seems to make good sense. 

[Doc]

I believe we can experience the Kingdom now, whilst still living in this fallen world.  As we are transformed into the likeness of Christ we live as if we were already in Jesus' physical Kingdom (which I assume is what is mentioned in Revelation and Isaiah).  So during this Age, it is spiritual, but when this age ends, and 'the Kingdom is restored to (spiritual?) Israel' Jesus will rule literally along with the first fruits - the believers.  They will rule over the people that are still alive on the earth: namely unbelivers.  The rest of the dead are resurrected after the 1000 years??  (Wouldn't it make sense to resurrect them at the beginning so they can be taught the right stuff too??)  I'm not sure of all this stuff.  What is important is that we live as citizens of Jesus' Kingdom NOW.  I read recently that some believe the Kingdom isn't literal but spiritual??  I tend to see it as ultimately being literal AS WELL AS spiritual.

How can 'aionios' life only start at the millenium?  We are in an Age now aren't we?
Legoman said: "Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?" - this seems to make good sense. 

You're definitely on the right track, Cat. Just keep going...

Be cautious about how you think about the terms literal, spiritual, etc.
For example, spiritual does not mean, "not literal" nor is literal a synonym for physical.

Your last comment with the quote from legoman is right on.

[Nathan]

I believe we can experience the Kingdom now, whilst still living in this fallen world.  As we are transformed into the likeness of Christ we live as if we were already in Jesus' physical Kingdom (which I assume is what is mentioned in Revelation and Isaiah).  So during this Age, it is spiritual, but when this age ends, and 'the Kingdom is restored to (spiritual?) Israel' Jesus will rule literally along with the first fruits - the believers.  They will rule over the people that are still alive on the earth: namely unbelivers.  The rest of the dead are resurrected after the 1000 years??  (Wouldn't it make sense to resurrect them at the beginning so they can be taught the right stuff too??)  I'm not sure of all this stuff.  What is important is that we live as citizens of Jesus' Kingdom NOW.  I read recently that some believe the Kingdom isn't literal but spiritual??  I tend to see it as ultimately being literal AS WELL AS spiritual.

How can 'aionios' life only start at the millenium?  We are in an Age now aren't we?
Legoman said: "Perhaps he is offering spiritual life vs the fleshly life we have right now?" - this seems to make good sense. 

You're definitely on the right track, Cat. Just keep going...

Be cautious about how you think about the terms literal, spiritual, etc.
For example, spiritual does not mean, "not literal" nor is literal a synonym for physical.

Your last comment with the quote from legoman is right on.

I get tripped up on that quite a bit as well Doc . . .

[Cardinal]

  When you walk in the Spirit (proceeding word from the Father's mouth), you're in heaven.....

[Zeek]

When you walk in the Spirit (proceeding word from the Father's mouth), you're in heaven.....

[Cardinal]

  For you.......   (smile)

[Cat]

I've come across this interesting website:
http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm

If you scroll down you come to this section (although it's probably best to read from the beginning):

"The Truth about aionios-life (the life of the ages)
On stage the world over, Christians say: "Believe in Jesus, so that you can enter into eternal life when you die." Sounds great right? It is easily demonstrated how such a statement defiles the true victory of the cross, contradicts the Bible, and makes God a liar! How could that be? It be. Their argument is catastrophically flawed.

To understand why, let us immediately cut to to the truth: "aionios-life" is not immortality at all, and the Bible proves it! It was misunderstood by translators to be "everlasting life." But, the Bible provides very specific and explicit definitions for aionios-life and NOT ONE definition approaches the concept of being physically alive."

It goes on in great detail and seems to make good sense.  Any thoughts on this guys? 

[WhiteWings]

Great article. Sound logic too.
Continued on this page: http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity-detailedstudy.htm

[Cardinal]

  I really don't understand all the qualifying statements as to what life everlasting means, in the first place. If you understand that there is no death in His Spirit, and you are in His Spirit at death (or before), and that Spirit has no beginning and no end, please tell me what the issue is here? I just don't get it. My  ......Blessings...