The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)

[jabcat]

Hi Cat...I've copied and pasted a part of a post by the Administrator, Martin that addresses this issue.  Based on history at the forum, the free will/sovereignty issue falls in this category, as does actual debating as well.  Obviously discussion is encouraged, as this is a discussion forum  , but as the FW/Sov issue has been a major problem, so has allowing discussions to escalate to outright debating; which then has become arguing, insulting, and mud-slinging.  My opinion is, you particular participants in this discussion were all pleasant, respectful, etc.  However, as a mod and knowing the guidelines in which we are operating, it was my opinion that we were teetering on entering into territory that is off-limits for this forum. 

Please note in Martin's comments his statement about "approaching the fire with gas"...history here says we just have not been able to go deeply into this particular discussion without it becoming actually quite nasty.  And it's been decided we're just not going to go there, or even let it approach that.  Believe it or not, I actually watched the conversation a bit, restraining myself, letting you guys have some say (as you were handling it well), but suspecting we would be coming to a pretty quick cutting off point.  Because I'm not kidding...my guess is about 5 or 10 more posts and perhaps less than 24 hours and we would already have some tension going on as others joined in, things heated up, and the dividing lines began to be drawn.  And again, it's been decided we're just not going to allow that to happen, with the preventative measure of cutting it off when we're ankle deep as opposed to waiting until we're drowning.  Then there's all kinds of messes to clean up  .  If everyone would handle it like you guys were, we'd be fine. But history has shown us that's not what happens.  So we've encouraged folks who specifically wish to continue a particular such topic to use the private messaging section where you can discuss as much and as long as you like, including with several different participants if so desired.

Martin's notes:

Some moderation decisions will be made because of content and the limited, narrow purpose of this forum, while other things may find censorship simply because of the past history of this forum where for whatever reason it wound up being a sore spot with causing a whole lot of unnecessary strife that we wish to avoid... the purpose of the forum is a straight and narrow purpose and debate and strife isn't a part of our focus.  So, if for whatever reason it's knowingly or unknowingly the canister of gasoline approaching the fire we have going around here, then we will clamp down on saying not to start pouring...  Such moderation would never be meant as a personal attack, but would be meant to keep things on track with the purpose of the forum and an avoidance of explosions around here.

Moderation will be biased towards tone/attitude, content in keeping with the purpose/agenda of the forum as laid out by Gary, and previous history where something just kept exploding in our faces once upon a time and we're simply not going to go there again in order to keep the peace.  Please abide by all moderation decisions or find another forum to post on.  Thank you!


Also, try to remember that the Tentmaker Forum is owned by Tentmaker Ministries and the final word on the very existence of the boards lies with Gary Amirault, the site owner.  Administrators of the Forum are appointed by him and Administrators and Moderators in submission to the New Testament and to their understanding of Gary's wishes for the boards must have the final word regarding what's posted on the boards, as is the case with nearly all of the forums that you would ever find on the internet that, posted rules or not, someone somewhere has a final word about this or that. 

....thefinal word on any additional tabboos must be at the discretion of the Administrator and Moderators as additional things come up that it becomes necessary to address in keeping with the spirit/unity/atmosphere/direction that's being maintained and their best understanding of Gary Amirault's wishes.--end quote
 

Please let me know if I can help in any way.  Any honest searching needs to be responded to, when possible on the boards, if not, then by PM, or even by setting up a private thread with the mods.

God's blessing, and please don't hesitate to contact me or anyone else.  James.

[Cat]

Thanks for that James.  It has explained things for me.  It's a shame it has to come to this but I understand.  I would like to continue this study with Legoman, and the others and so will use the private message system.  Maybe we can discuss things on MSN.  We'll see.  God Bless.

[jabcat]

You're very welcome.  As I said, I have my own Q's, leanings/points of view on this, and any mod decision such as this particular one should not be taken as a personal statement of a mod's belief or preference, but as in keeping with the direction of the forum.  In fact, there's differences of understanding and opinions on this topic within the admin/mod group, but Martin and the mods (sounds like some kind of crazy 60's band) have worked together, along with Gary's wishes on how things will be handled.  Thanks for understanding, James.

[legoman]

Hi jabcat,

What is the mod perspective on discussing the purpose of evil?  I know it is sometimes hard to discuss that without getting into sovereignty of God issues - but is discussing the purpose of evil here ok, as long as we don't get into the free will/sovereignty stuff too much?  Or should we just take that to PM as well?

Thanks for your help on this jabcat, I have seen what happens on other boards when the free will debates go too far... it can get ugly, but at least here we all (somewhat at least) believe in UR so personally (for me) everything makes a lot more sense at least 

Cat, feel free to PM me if you want.

Cheers,
Legoman

[jabcat]

Hello.  I think I'll ask Martin if he'll address that one...I agree it seems it should be something that could be discussed, but I also agree that it's likely a pretty straight road right back into that other debate.  I'll ask, thanks, God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

Hoping not to regret this, but I'd honestly say "go for it, and if it starts getting heated then we can shut it down and/or take every step along the way short of that, or that would lead to that, depending on the outcome."  In other words, there are subjects that you've sorta gotta shut 'er down within half a dozen posts and other topics where things honestly go pretty smoothly for two or three (or even four) pages of posts, but if they're allowed to wander much further, then that's when everybody gets their feelings hurt, gets mad about something, etc., etc., etc., or somebody that hasn't been here in months comes with the can of gasoline.  

Some folks seem to never be here, unless there's a particular topic they want to fan the flames a few feet higher on.  When a topic's sorta gone cold for weeks/months, sometimes a nice small flame gets everybody the warmth they were needing, but when the flame gets a little high, then that's when we're treating folks for second and third degree burns, throwing robes on folks whose clothes got burned off while they were starting to relax into the thread, etc.  I will say up front that a verse or two from Isaiah and a verse or two from Romans isn't the least bit conclusive as far as I'm concerned 'cause my interpretation of said verses tends to consistently be the diametric opposite of what many folks will be all too ready to relegate to my heavenly Father's intentions. 

But I am genuinely interested in this topic being restarted if it's got fresh material to consider besides a verse or two from Isaiah, Romans, and Ecclesiastes that from my perspective always wind up being taken horribly out of context.  I'm not saying that folks have to agree with 100% of the way that I'd see it, but I genuinely hope that if anyone restarts that topic that there's a little more Scripture that comes into it besides the half dozen verses that everybody knows that somehow, someway winds up turning it consistently into a stalemate rather than any genuine increase in understanding.  I don't want to see this turn into a debate on the boards, but I ALWAYS genuinely welcome a real increase in perspective coming with additional material being looked at on the subject that hasn't usually thus far come up along these lines.  I may wind up saying what I've always said on the subject, but maybe if it's in response to completely different verses coming up then maybe folks will see where I'm coming from, or maybe folks will see where Tony N is coming from, or maybe folks will see where WillieH is coming from if he wanders back for a peak at what's going on, (his health and time permitting,) et. al.

I want to see Father's consistency with Himself and with His redemptive purposes and with the wisdom that He's made Himself to us in Christ really, really brought out.  Since we're to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, and we're to be imitators of Him in every detail according to Jesus, St. Paul, St. John, and other New Testament contributors, then how does such and such an insight translate into what I'm supposed to be doing to be a positive influence on my relatives, the news media, and the nations being discipled?  Many things that I've heard brought out on this topic genuinely seem to validate persecution over opinions, Crusades, Inquisitions, etc., because of the "imitate Him" part of Matthew's Gospel, John's Gospel, 1Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians 3:17, 1John, etc., etc.  And if any of what comes up is what's come up before on the topic, I genuinely want to see how that translates into wisdom being justified of her children, our being conformed to the image of His dear Son, etc.

I really want to see the topic started if it can successfully go there rather than become a tit-for-tat:

post #1: To the present day God is still the source of all evil things happening in the world;
post #2: No He's not!
Post #3: Yes He is, here's a single verse from Isaiah and a couple from Romans divorced of their historical, prophetic, and Biblical doctrinal contexts.
Post #4: Your god is my devil!!
Post #5: Stop implying there's free will to go to the bathroom without God's permission 'cause there ain't no such thing as free will, therefore if you murdered your wife God was behind that too!!!
Post #6: You're twisting the Scriptures
Post #7: No, you're twisting the Scriptures, Dr Shipwreck!

If it turns into the aforementioned parody, then the topic likely won't go into a second page of posts, and probably won't likely even finish one page of posts.  That's what previous discussions on the subject have sorta looked like, unfortunately.

[Taffy]

.....or somebody that hasn't been here in months comes with the can of gasoline.

cant see that happening thesedays M, to darn expensive

 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yeah, but some fires are worth the money to see.   

[Taffy]

 

Isa 37:19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they [were] no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.   

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, but some fires are worth the money to see.   

Some fires are free. And eternal.

[Cat]

I've read this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0  and was wondering if there are any others on here discussing the topic of evil?  Once I've clarified everyone's 'understandings' of evil I can hopefully offer a scripture-based explanation  to clearly show that God is NOT the originator of every evil act or indeed every act of His creation.   

[legoman]

I've read this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0  and was wondering if there are any others on here discussing the topic of evil?  Once I've clarified everyone's 'understandings' of evil I can hopefully offer a scripture-based explanation  to clearly show that God is NOT the originator of every evil act or indeed every act of His creation.   

Hi Cat,

Just use the search function.  If you go into advanced search you can search topic titles only.  Here are a few more threads I found that have a good variety of viewpoints:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3502.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2858.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=202.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1495.0

I will be interested in what you come up with and if you can show that God is not the originator of every act (evil or not) of his creation.   

Ultimately it must all be of God at some point... since he is the creator.  I think it helps if we can distinguish between God directly causing something, and God indirectly causing something.  God may not directly cause of everything, but indirectly isn't he the cause of everything?  And if you are God (all-powerful, omniscient, all-knowing) is there really a difference between "directly" or "indirectly" causing something to happen?

Just some things to think about...

Legoman

[Nathan]

This is as good a place as any to throw this out to you guys .  . . I just finished reading the book "The Shack" about a half hour ago (it's why I haven't been posting much lately) and this subject is so perfectly touched on . .as are many others throughout the book.  I highly suggest . .strongly suggest . . . get your hands on a couple copies of this . ..one for you . . and after you've read it, you'll be glad you have other copies to hand out . ..also . . .read it with a pen.  It's supposedly fiction, but there are so many awesome revelational tidbits in the thing . . oh, and make sure you read it with a box of tissues . . .you'll need them . .more than once .  . . best book I've ever read.

The storyline is all around a guy's little girl being abducted and murdered . . . so the question "how can God allow such evil to exitst" comes up pretty strongly in it.

Did I mention it's a great book?

[Cardinal]

  Well, since you all brought it up.......a few weeks ago God gave me something else regarding all that. He showed me this as I was driving; He knows I learn best from "pictures", LOL.

If our life's progression of events were as if we were driving, we are driving, bound IN time, choosing the turns we make in life's events.

God, on the other hand, is NOT bound in time, and is watching the whole thing from beginning to end. So He therefore has the capacity to "go ahead of us" and change the road, put up roadblocks, put circumstances in our way to alter what we would choose, have people cross our path, give revelation to change the outcome, ect.

He showed me this is how what I refer to, as the illusion of free will, is maintained, yet God was never not in control. This is how He can say of a truth, that He sees the end from the beginning, and His will for us is nothing but good, because He MAKES the end to be good, regardless of what "choices" we make.

This, for me, made a whole lot of difficult topics, like the use of evil, much clearer and more simplified. My  Blessings.....

[Taffy]

Well, since you all brought it up.......a few weeks ago God gave me something else regarding all that. He showed me this as I was driving; He knows I learn best from "pictures", LOL.

If our life's progression of events were as if we were driving, we are driving, bound IN time, choosing the turns we make in life's events.

God, on the other hand, is NOT bound in time, and is watching the whole thing from beginning to end. So He therefore has the capacity to "go ahead of us" and change the road, put up roadblocks, put circumstances in our way to alter what we would choose, have people cross our path, give revelation to change the outcome, ect.

He showed me this is how what I refer to, as the illusion of free will, is maintained, yet God was never not in control. This is how He can say of a truth, that He sees the end from the beginning, and His will for us is nothing but good, because He MAKES the end to be good, regardless of what "choices" we make.

This, for me, made a whole lot of difficult topics, like the use of evil, much clearer and more simplified. My  Blessings.....

ya quite a Picture book Card...

[Taffy]

This is as good a place as any to throw this out to you guys .  . . I just finished reading the book "The Shack" about a half hour ago (it's why I haven't been posting much lately) and this subject is so perfectly touched on . .as are many others throughout the book.  I highly suggest . .strongly suggest . . . get your hands on a couple copies of this . ..one for you . . and after you've read it, you'll be glad you have other copies to hand out . ..also . . .read it with a pen.  It's supposedly fiction, but there are so many awesome revelational tidbits in the thing . . oh, and make sure you read it with a box of tissues . . .you'll need them . .more than once .  . . best book I've ever read.

The storyline is all around a guy's little girl being abducted and murdered . . . so the question "how can God allow such evil to exitst" comes up pretty strongly in it.

Did I mention it's a great book?

Got it in stereo Bro ...here and the Pm

Ive heard of this before.....20 hrs reading ya say....just may take me Months....


ill sue look out for it.....ya painted quite an advert.

[Nathan]

This is as good a place as any to throw this out to you guys .  . . I just finished reading the book "The Shack" about a half hour ago (it's why I haven't been posting much lately) and this subject is so perfectly touched on . .as are many others throughout the book.  I highly suggest . .strongly suggest . . . get your hands on a couple copies of this . ..one for you . . and after you've read it, you'll be glad you have other copies to hand out . ..also . . .read it with a pen.  It's supposedly fiction, but there are so many awesome revelational tidbits in the thing . . oh, and make sure you read it with a box of tissues . . .you'll need them . .more than once .  . . best book I've ever read.

The storyline is all around a guy's little girl being abducted and murdered . . . so the question "how can God allow such evil to exitst" comes up pretty strongly in it.

Did I mention it's a great book?

Got it in stereo Bro ...here and the Pm

Ive heard of this before.....20 hrs reading ya say....just may take me Months....


ill sue look out for it.....ya painted quite an advert.

I got my copy at Walmart . . .but my wife's been trying to read it . . then a lady at church let me borrow hers . . .and now my wife has been really spending time in it again . . . I just LOVED what Mack saw after the Holy Spirit touched his eyes . . .and each time he tried to explain what the Holy Spirit "looked" like . . .she kept changing forms and colors while she stood in one place . . .her color changed with her temperment  . . .like excitment would transform her appearance . . .then when she calmed down, her colors would change again . .never one solid color . . always a different mixture of colors . . .lights, stones . . . whoever wrote the book . . .had to have had an intimate experience to see these things.  Very cool book.

[Nathan]

I also fell over at the part of the "walking in expectancy" versus "walking in expectations".  On the surface they would appear to mean the same thing . .but oh, my . . what a difference there is between the two.

[Cardinal]

  Well, I've never heard of the book, but your last comment here Nathan brought back a word that came thru interpretation of tongues many years ago.

The gist of it was; He said that His people were hurting over their "expectations" not being met in any area of their life. He said that we were not keeping our eyes on Him and what He would say He was going to do for us personally, but rather reading into it and ASSUMING and then forming an expectation thru our carnal minds, of exactly how it was going to play out.

He said He could not give life to the expectation because it was not based on faith of a Spirit breathed Word that came from the Father's mouth, but was instead birthed out of the reasonings and imaginings of the carnal mind. Blessings...

[Nathan]

Yes, that's the crux exactly . .when you live in expectancy, you're not let down or offended that something didn't go according to plan, but you simply adapt your actions to the change without harboring grudges and also, the biggy to living in expectation is that there's a sense of control with it . .you "expect" people to do and act certain ways . . .but when you live in expectancy, the perception is you still have your druthers, but there's no enforcment there when they don't go your way.

[Cat]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3502.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2858.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=202.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1495.0

Thanks Legoman.  I've saved the first link and will read through it, but sadly the other three seem to be off limits to me....

[jabcat]

Want me to copy and paste at least some of it and send to you in PM?

[legoman]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3502.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2858.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=202.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1495.0

Thanks Legoman.  I've saved the first link and will read through it, but sadly the other three seem to be off limits to me....

Hm, you probably need 50 posts under your belt so the other boards open up to you.  Does that sound right mods?

If so, just post 9 more times and you should be ok 

[jabcat]

I think you're probably on to something there, Lego my Eggo, but maybe Taf, Martin, or others who've been mods longer than I will know for sure...I'll try to find out.

[Cat]

Ok guys.  Thanks.  Maybe it's for the best, as it will give me time to read and digest the first one and some other bits and bobs I'm reading at the minute.  If I still can't read them I'll let you know.