The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)

[Molly]

I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.

Cat,  do you think a possibility exists along these lines.


God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say,  "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused".  God  grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?

We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough.   Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?

Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?


Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says   "Oh my,  I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?

12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
 13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

--Luke 19



God has left the planet.  He's left us in charge.  How are we doing so far?

Well, if He's not here I'm not going to bother looking for him.

15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

 16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

 17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

--Luke 19

[Paul Hazelwood]

What if I couldn't care less about having authority over 10 cities?


I guess since you think God left the planet you are not aware.

Ro 8:28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Gotta love pet doctrines .

[Nathan]

I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.

Cat,  do you think a possibility exists along these lines.


God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say,  "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused".  God  grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?

We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough.   Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?

Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?


Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says   "Oh my,  I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?

I'm going to step over the fence just a sec and throw this out there.  I'm not so sure what happened in Genesis 6 was just about men being bad.  I tend to think that there was a spiritual perversion that took place that God stepped in and put a stop to it.  I think Sodom and Gomorah are similar attempts of spiritual perversion transpiring rather than just men being ungodly.  And I also think that there's some spiritual mixture taking place in the perversions of fleshly pleasures when dealing with child molestation, beastiality, incest as well as other areas where spirit perverts flesh beyond the seemingly normal level of darkness.

I really don't know where to begin to explain why I feel this way so I'm not going to try to clarify or defend.  But there are sins that lead to death and sins that don't.  I'm wondering if the things being mentioned here about "how can this be part of God's purpose" would fall under that category of sin that has led to death.

[Molly]

What if I couldn't care less about having authority over 10 cities?


I guess since you think God left the planet you are not aware.

Ro 8:28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose.

5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


--John 16

[legoman]

I can even accept that He planned this (temporary) seperation from Him whilst working out His plan of reconciliation and perfection through His Son.  I can't understand how certain types of evil (child abuse etc) can be part of this plan.

Neither can I. But I don't understand anything about His plan anyway. Why 'insert' evil with the goal of removing it?
Why not just create 15 billion saints in Heaven?

Perhaps that is what He is doing?

We just don't realize it or understand it all because He is not finished yet. 

Legoman

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

[Cat]

Paul, I cannot begin to understand how God can observe the evil that goes on and why He doesn't just blot it out like He did in Noah's day.  This is part of the problem of evil that I don't think we will understand in this life.  He does allow it,  but to say He causes it (stuff like stealing, torturing, adultery) is so 'wicked' is the word that springs to mind.  I'd say that this view of God 'purposing' evil is moving the goal posts millions of miles to accommodate this 'explanation' of evil.  The evil world we live in is used by God to accomplish HIs will.  He uses fallen man and his wicked ways to carry out judgments.  He uses natural means ie flood, fire and brimstone.  He doesn't use child abuse, adultery, orgies, etc to accomplish His plan.  These things delay His plan but don't thwart it.  I recently debated on an atheist forum and really got to understand the logic and reasonings behind a lot of what makes some people reject the belief in a God etc.  I worry that when we try to use logic  to explain evil, free will, etc, we may be falling into the same trap as these atheists.  Our reasonings seem to make perfect sense from our view point but in the grander scheme of things we are probably missing many vital ingredients to really make the equations 'work out'.  The bible is full of admonitions to 'choose' to serve God.  God gets angry at evil.  This would be absolutely a waste of time if all is exactly as God wants it.  Why have a Bible at all?  Lets just live our lives how they are set to be.  We can't change diddly squat.  Why bother?  I believe by God's spirit, we can ask God to overcome our weak flesh, and help us to change the course of our lives so we can serve God and obey Him.  " Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."  Why bother reasoning if we are 'machines' that have our dials ever set?

Nathan, thanks for your reply.  I can see your dilema here.

Molly, thanks for the scriptures.  

[Cat]

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

God knows what will happen before it happens.  We are in a time frame going through the Ages as He works out His Plan of Salvation.

[Paul Hazelwood]

This would be absolutely a waste of time if all is exactly as God wants it.

Maybe, but what determines that the above question is not just your own reasoning as well.   Where is the line drawn to determine that we have contemplated evil "correctly"?

If we are to teach that difference, what is it?

[Molly]

We can't change diddly squat.  Why bother?

Who told you that?



Matthew 25:21
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

God knows what will happen before it happens.  We are in a time frame going through the Ages as He works out His Plan of Salvation.

ok, but lets pay attention to wording   "stated time"   who stated it to begin with?

[Molly]

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

Yes, and this is the season and time of our Lord of whom we are servants, representatives, agents, and ambassadors.


21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

--Luke 4

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

Yes, and this is the season and time of our Lord of whom we are representatives, agents, and ambassadors.


21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

--Luke 4

2Th 2:11 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,

[Molly]

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:

Yes, and this is the season and time of our Lord of whom we are representatives, agents, and ambassadors.


21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

--Luke 4

2Th 2:11 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,

Yes, but what happens before that?


10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

--2Th 2

[Paul Hazelwood]

All a part of the plan I suppose?

Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul?   Yet Paul says  He does that in which he does not want to do.  Why does he say that?  If we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things.   Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?   Paul was in charge of removing Sin and doing the things he did not want to do, but did them anyway?   Doesn't sound like he did such a great job either.

Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.

What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him?    If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.

[Cat]

Hi Molly,  I'm not saying we can't change anything.  This is the reasoning behind L Ray Smith's beliefs it seems.

Hi Paul,  you're quite right.  My reasoning may be as dodgy as anybody elses.  I have to go with what my reasoning or understanding of the Bible tells me.  It is full of things to suggest we can choose (I know we can't all choose so easily or freely due to mental ability, mental illness, etc) to 'resist the devil and he will flee'.  There would only be a purpose to a tester, if you can actually be tested.  If you are going to respond with a pre set action, then it wasn't really a test, so why 'create' an adversery in the first place?

I draw the line with evil by leaving it firmly at the door of 'free will'.  It's a 'thing' that need not exist and won't exist in the future, but is existing now in order that we will understand it's corruptive, killing power and ultimately can choose to do God's will without 'wondering if our way would be ok'.  We will know that God's ways are ALWAYS the best ways.

Ec 3:1 and the following verses are showing how there are cyles of life, bad things and good things.  Youngs says: 'To everything -- a season, and a time to every delight under the heavens':

Are you saying that God planned 9/11 to the exact minute because it was His will?  I would say He knew 9/11 would happen but it wasn't His will.  Our wills can be in opposition to God's but that doesn't mean He isn't in overall control.

[Molly]

All a part of the plan I suppose?

Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul?   Yet Paul says  He does that in which he does not want to do.  Why does he say that?  I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things.   Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?

Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.

What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him?    If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.

Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?

Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?



1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8

[Paul Hazelwood]

All a part of the plan I suppose?

Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul?   Yet Paul says  He does that in which he does not want to do.  Why does he say that?  I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things.   Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?

Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.

What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him?    If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.

Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?

Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?



1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8

So what was Pauls excuse?

[Molly]

All a part of the plan I suppose?

Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul?   Yet Paul says  He does that in which he does not want to do.  Why does he say that?  I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things.   Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?

Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.

What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him?    If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.

Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?

Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?



1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8

So what was Pauls excuse?

I don't understand the question.

But even in Romans 7,  Paul ends by thanking God for what was done by the Lord Jesus.


Because there is a before and after to this story, you know,  unless you want to forget the cross.

[Cat]

All a part of the plan I suppose?

Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul?   Yet Paul says  He does that in which he does not want to do.  Why does he say that?  If we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things.   Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?   Paul was in charge of removing Sin and doing the things he did not want to do, but did them anyway?   Doesn't sound like he did such a great job either.

We are NOT in control of being good or bad, not in an absolute sense.  We can control to some extent how good or how bad we are.  Paul was not a complete failure.  He did do the will of God it seems most of the time.  You only have to read his epistles to see this.  Of course he 'sinned' still.  We all do and will until perfection comes.

[Paul Hazelwood]

All a part of the plan I suppose?

Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul?   Yet Paul says  He does that in which he does not want to do.  Why does he say that?  I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things.   Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?

Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.

What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him?    If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.

Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?

Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?



1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8

So what was Pauls excuse?

I don't understand the question.

But even in Romans 7,  Paul ends by thanking God for what was done by the Lord Jesus.


Because there is a before and after to this story, you know,  unless you want to forget the cross.

Not forgetting anything your ignoring the human condition as if it can be avoided through your admonitions  of "God has left us in charge" "how are we doing so far".

The whole point is that DESPITE the cross Paul still dealt with "sin within him" but your avoiding that altogther.   Paul thanks the work of the cross, but why?

Why thank something while sin was still in him?    You imply that all we have to do is receive and we will change the world, yet Paul did not receive what you seem to claim everyone can.    Your scripture quoting doesn't answer anything.

So, my point is why people try to imply that things can happen that did not even happen to those we are so adamantly told to look to in the bible?  

If Paul missed it what good are his words?

[Molly]

All a part of the plan I suppose?

Who would not want to be as righteous as Paul?   Yet Paul says  He does that in which he does not want to do.  Why does he say that?  I we are in charge and the demand from Christians is that we take care of things.   Why do we think we can do a better Job than Paul did?

Curious that scripture doesn't mention what it is he does.

What is it exactly that Paul does that is the sin within him?    If Paul recognizes this then it is no surprise what it means to be self righteous.

Why does everyone stop reading in Romans 7?

Doesn't anyone ever make it to Romans 8?



1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8

So what was Pauls excuse?

I don't understand the question.

But even in Romans 7,  Paul ends by thanking God for what was done by the Lord Jesus.


Because there is a before and after to this story, you know,  unless you want to forget the cross.

Not forgetting anything your ignoring the human condition as if it can be avoided through your admonitions  of "God has left us in charge" "how are we doing so far".

The whole point is that DESPITE the cross Paul still dealt with "sin within him" but your avoiding that altogther.   Paul thanks the work of the cross, but why?

Why thank something while sin was still in him?    You imply that all we have to do is receive and we will change the world, yet Paul did not receive what you seem to claim everyone can.    Your scripture quoting doesn't answer anything.

So, my point is why people try to imply that things can happen that did not even happen to those we are so adamantly told to look to in the bible?  

If Paul missed it what good are his words?

Who says Paul missed anything?

Paul tells us himself --

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


So stay in Christ Jesus and walk in the Spirit, and there will be no condemnation.


Jesus himself tells us this--abide in me--


John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Jesus tells those he heals--Go and sin no more.  Why would he say that if it were not possible?


1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


And, PS, Paul did change the world.

[legoman]

Hi Legoman, you said: 'it was not God's direct purpose' - this is what I have been trying to convey.  God knew evil would have to be part of His plan for a limited time and He uses 'evil' to accomplish His judgments etc (He doesn't use things like rape, abuse etc).  The evils mankind and angels have 'created' are not directly intended by God, but He knows that every conceivable type of evil will be 'tried' if you like.

A lot of Ray Smith's article combines UR and eternal torment in with the 'evil' stuff and this mixes things up somewhat.  I have no problem with the idea of UR and hope it is true but I'm not fully convinced as yet.  I already know for sure there is no literal hell and hell's flames.  These are not issues for me.  The big issue at the minute is understanding where you guys come from with this 'evil' stuff.  I'm not sure why only Universalists have come to this conclusion, although I'm sure not all of you believe this.

The reason universalists have come to this conclusion (at least I have anyway) is because they have read it in the bible. 

When reading Ray's stuff, you have to go and double check everything he says in the scripture.  In one of your post's you said "isn't EVERYTHING (according to Ray Smith) meant to be purposed by God?"   This is not according to Ray Smith - he doesn't just make this stuff up out of his head you know.  It actually says this in the bible:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

There are many other verses that confirm this fact - some of which I posted before (ie. Isa 46:10-11, 2 Cor 5:18, etc).  So ask yourself this.  Do you believe you have been predestined according to God's purpose?  Do you believe everything is according to the purpose of Him (God) who works all things after the counsel of His (God's) will?  Because that is what the scriptures say.  Now ask yourself this: what would "all things" include in the above verse?  Good?  Evil?  How about what you had for breakfast, where you were go to work, and where you live?

How about this:  Do you believe God works all things after the counsel of OUR FREE WILL?  No that is not what the scripture says.  Everything is worked after the counsel of GOD'S WILL!

Cat, I noticed in several of your posts that you believe we have free will.  I recommend you read Ray's papers on free will (side note: with all of Ray's stuff, you should read it several times, and look up all the scriptures - it took me many months of study to begin to comprehend it all).

Anyway here is my take on it, which I believe is 100% supported by the scriptures.  We absolutely do not have free will.  However we do make choices, and we do the things we do.  No one FORCES us to do anything.  Now we may be influenced or caused to do some things, but we always do it ourself of our own will.  (Mind you it is not a free will).

Here is part of the problem of understanding this.  When someone says we don't have free will, the automatic reaction seems to be then we must be "machines" or "robots" or "puppets", and that doesn't make sense so it cannot be.  Hmm - what do the scriptures say?  Well we already know that God works everything according to whose will?  Oh yeah: HIS OWN WILL.  Our will doesn't enter into it.

Are we a robot?  In many ways there are similarities.  We respond to input and can make choices based on that input, just like a robot or computer can.  But we are superior to a robot or computer in many ways.  We can learn.  We can feel emotion.  We can love!  It is likely no human will ever make a robot that can compare to a human.

However - here is the real humbling part - what do the scriptures call us?  Are we called robots?  Or puppets?  NO.  We are actually something much lower than any of those creations.  WE ARE CALLED CLAY!   God molds us and breaks us and molds us again as He sees fit.  We cannot do anything by ourself anymore than a lump of clay can do by itself!  Read all of Romans 9 and see what you think.

So how does evil fit into this?  Is God running around all day making some people rob banks and murder each other, while making others go to work and have boring lives?  Not exactly.


Ever wonder why you are the way you are?  Take me for instance:  Why do I go to work?
I have a pretty decent job that I don't mind doing and it pays pretty well so I can support my family.
But how did I get that job?  Well I went to university and got decent grades.
But why did I go to university?  Well I had decent grades in high school (but sucked at sports) and got a scholarship.
But why did I get good grades in high school?  Well my parents raised me a certain way and certain subjects (math/computers) came naturally which helped me with all my studies.
But why was I good at math/computers?  Well it was my own free will.  NOT!  (Sorry had to throw that in there ) 

The real answer of why I am here today is that God gave me certain abilities & gifts, he chose my parents, where I would live, and the circumstances I would endure.  These all shaped my life (like the potter molding clay) which led me to the point I am at right now in my life.  Its all by God's grace, and I am thankful for what he has given me.

Now because of my experiences, gifts, and character, etc. I would never consider robbing a bank (or other nefarious crimes).

But what about someone else?  Why does a bank robber rob a bank?  Does God FORCE him to do this evil?  Not exactly.  So why does he rob a bank?  Perhaps he is lazy.  Perhaps he lusts after some easy money.  Perhaps he had a poor childhood.  Perhaps he had bad parents.  Perhaps he had an addiction.  The list could go on and on... but there is some reason that CAUSED him to rob a bank.  Was it his free will?  Well just like in my life, NO!  And again it is only by God's grace!  Think about that next time you need some humbling.  It is only by God's grace that you are not a bank robber, or a murderer, or worse...

We all make choices and do the things we do, because of some REASON or CAUSE.  If you trace the causes back far enough, you will see the ultimate cause of everything is God.  Even with the case of the bank robber - you might say it was the lusts of his own heart that caused him to rob that bank.  BUT who put those lusts in his heart?  Who designed his heart - was it not God?  But then you might say it was Satan who tempted his heart.  But wait - who created Satan?  God!  It always comes back to God!

And Eph 1:11 confirms it: God is operating ALL according to his purpose.

Sorry that was so long - this topic is so broad we could write an encyclopedia about it.  Never mind Ray Smith already has  - just read his stuff a few times...

Legoman

[Paul Hazelwood]

Not having condemnation is not equal to Paul not having sin within him.

Where does it say that Pauls sin left him and what good are his words if I can remove sin from myself but the greatest saint didn't and didn't bother to tell anyone how to do it?


Have you done it Molly, are you sinless?