The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)

[legoman]

Legoman, you said:

"So since he has declared everything that will happen, and all things are of God and he works all things according to his will - this would include all evil wouldn't it?  Even rape, child abuse, torture, etc.  It is all for a purpose, but we may not understand it."

I do not believe this to be true.

A question for you.  Do you believe the verses I quoted above are true, (Isa 46:10, Eph 1:11, 2 Cor 5:18) and that all things really are from God, and that He really has declared everything that will happen, and that he works all things according to his will?  If you do believe these verses (which I hope you do - its straight from the bible), then its not much of a step to realize that "all things" includes evil.  God really is in control of all things.

Consider the alternative: God is not in control of all things!  How scary of a thought is that?  If God is not in control of evil, what guarantee do we have that He will be able to abolish it eventually?  But we don't have to worry about that proposition because the bible quite clearly says God is in control of all things.  Evil will be abolished on God's timetable.

Another thing to remember:  God is not a man, and conversely, men are not God.  There are many things God does that men should not do.  God is good.  Just because He uses evil does not make Him evil - because he uses evil for a greater good.  Men cannot (and should not try to) use evil for the greater good because they don't have the power to correct/restore everything - the power that God has. 

You may want to check out some of the past threads on tentmaker about evil.  Here's one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0

Definitely its not an easy journey to take in all of this new information and most likely completely opposite ideas of what you had been taught.  Take your time and ask God for guidance.

I am glad you are excited about the possibility of UR.

Legoman

[Doc]

Legoman, you said:

"So since he has declared everything that will happen, and all things are of God and he works all things according to his will - this would include all evil wouldn't it?  Even rape, child abuse, torture, etc.  It is all for a purpose, but we may not understand it."

I do not believe this to be true.

A question for you.  Do you believe the verses I quoted above are true, (Isa 46:10, Eph 1:11, 2 Cor 5:18) and that all things really are from God, and that He really has declared everything that will happen, and that he works all things according to his will?  If you do believe these verses (which I hope you do - its straight from the bible), then its not much of a step to realize that "all things" includes evil.  God really is in control of all things.

Consider the alternative: God is not in control of all things!  How scary of a thought is that?  If God is not in control of evil, what guarantee do we have that He will be able to abolish it eventually?  But we don't have to worry about that proposition because the bible quite clearly says God is in control of all things.  Evil will be abolished on God's timetable.

Another thing to remember:  God is not a man, and conversely, men are not God.  There are many things God does that men should not do.  God is good.  Just because He uses evil does not make Him evil - because he uses evil for a greater good.  Men cannot (and should not try to) use evil for the greater good because they don't have the power to correct/restore everything - the power that God has. 

You may want to check out some of the past threads on tentmaker about evil.  Here's one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0

Definitely its not an easy journey to take in all of this new information and most likely completely opposite ideas of what you had been taught.  Take your time and ask God for guidance.

I am glad you are excited about the possibility of UR.

Legoman

Exactly, lego. This is why walking in the spirit is so important. Sometimes God will ask us to do things that could be seen as "evil" by looking at the surface of them, but if we are truly walking in the spirit and God is giving us a clear instruction, we are accomplishing his will, no matter how it "looks". Only God has the capacity to do this right, so we must always look to Him and do and say only what we see the Father doing and saying.

[Cat]

Cat, I don't know if it's helpful to you at all, but I see the notion of God creating evil in the sense that the presence of light creates the presence of shadow. Anything that blocks the transmission of that light casts a shadow. The thing is, God created those "blocking" things as well, knowing they would cast the shadow. But again, there is purpose in all of it.
 
If God never meant for us to know good and evil, then why would he have put the tree of knowledge of them in the Garden? He could have simply chosen not to go there, but He did. Which tells me He had a purpose in it.

The Lord bless you as you search for His truth. Just don't expect it to always be comfortable.

Doc, I can accept that we had to know about evil.  Evil is a reality and possibility as far as free will is concerned, or with respects to the material universe and humans who have not been 'perfected'.  We can only really reject evil by having experienced it.  I accept that God does things which to our human minds are bad or evil e.g drowning a whole world of human beings, commanding the Israelites to kill men, women and children by the sword- stuff like that.  I cannot understand why God uses these 'carnal' methods to accomplish His will.   Anyway, I agree with you that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was put there by God for a purpose and it's interesting that God said 'they have become like us, knowing good and evil".  Very interesting.  Thanks for your help.

Legoman, yes, I believe the verses are true but I have no problem in believing that man (and angels too) can perpetrate evils that do not originate from God e.g child abuse.  God indeed allows man and angels to 'make a reality' of every conceivable evil and perversion imaginable.  Every possibility or way of living according to our free wills seems to be needed to be 'tested' in order to show up how man cannot walk even to direct his steps.  Can you see how I make a distinction here?  God knows all things.  He knows evil and every conceivable outworking of it but this does not mean He will go against His own holiness.  It seems He uses the existing evil that is generated by man and angels to work for good ultimately, and of course once He reconciles His creation, evil will no doubt be consigned to an 'abstract' realm.  Thanks for the link.  I'll check it out.

[Paul Hazelwood]

yes, I believe the verses are true but I have no problem in believing that man (and angels too) can perpetrate evils that do not originate from God e.g child abuse. 

I think God declares in Isaiah that he created evil because there is no other power that can over come it. He takes the responsibility that is rightly his in the first place.

I think there is a difference between God creating evil and perpretating that evil from his own spirit.    But, God set in motion a process he knew good and well what was going to happen.

[Doc]

Cat, I don't know if it's helpful to you at all, but I see the notion of God creating evil in the sense that the presence of light creates the presence of shadow. Anything that blocks the transmission of that light casts a shadow. The thing is, God created those "blocking" things as well, knowing they would cast the shadow. But again, there is purpose in all of it.
 
If God never meant for us to know good and evil, then why would he have put the tree of knowledge of them in the Garden? He could have simply chosen not to go there, but He did. Which tells me He had a purpose in it.

The Lord bless you as you search for His truth. Just don't expect it to always be comfortable.

Doc, I can accept that we had to know about evil.  Evil is a reality and possibility as far as free will is concerned, or with respects to the material universe and humans who have not been 'perfected'.  We can only really reject evil by having experienced it.  I accept that God does things which to our human minds are bad or evil e.g drowning a whole world of human beings, commanding the Israelites to kill men, women and children by the sword- stuff like that.  I cannot understand why God uses these 'carnal' methods to accomplish His will.   Anyway, I agree with you that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was put there by God for a purpose and it's interesting that God said 'they have become like us, knowing good and evil".  Very interesting.  Thanks for your help.

Legoman, yes, I believe the verses are true but I have no problem in believing that man (and angels too) can perpetrate evils that do not originate from God e.g child abuse.  God indeed allows man and angels to 'make a reality' of every conceivable evil and perversion imaginable.  Every possibility or way of living according to our free wills seems to be needed to be 'tested' in order to show up how man cannot walk even to direct his steps.  Can you see how I make a distinction here?  God knows all things.  He knows evil and every conceivable outworking of it but this does not mean He will go against His own holiness.  It seems He uses the existing evil that is generated by man and angels to work for good ultimately, and of course once He reconciles His creation, evil will no doubt be consigned to an 'abstract' realm.  Thanks for the link.  I'll check it out.

No problem, Cat. Glad it was helpful.

Here's a little something for you to chew on, regarding your second paragraph to legoman where you brought up holiness in the context of God not going against his own holiness.

From Strong's: G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

The sense I get from that word is that something that is holy is something that is 'set apart' (as in, for a purpose); it can be defined as 'morally blameless' as in hagios above, but that is not the sense of the root word hagos, as you can see above. Interestingly, in the Hebrew (qadash), it carries the sense of making something consecrated, acceptable, etc. Which implies that the thing being made holy does not start out that way (not implying God does not start out holy). So I don't really see God going against His own holiness by using these things, because He is creating beauty out of ashes. He is in the process of consecrating everything.

[Cat]

This is proving a very interesting discussion and I've started reading the other thread that Legoman provided.  I'll study these things and will come back to you.  I'll 'hold fire' for now....

Thanks again.

[Cat]

I'm reading Ray L Smith's 'Lake of Fire' Series, and I've got a problem with this statement in Part 2: "Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it." 

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

He also likens God's creation of humans to 'machines' that malfunction.

Humans are not machines that 'malfunction'.  We were made in God's image.  I think it 'foolish' to use this kind of comparison.  As regards Ray's statement above, how would that tie in with Gen 6:5,6.  Why would God be grieved if all this is part of His plan?  I submit that God knew humans would not obey Him until they'd learned the hard way and He is responsible for permitting evil in the world, so that we can learn the hard way and eventually be brought to perfection and immortal life.  This explains Rom 8:20-22 which is speaking about man AFTER he had disobeyed God and thus all the resulting 'bondage of corruption' that all creation suffers from.  We didn't receive our death sentence willingly, and vacate the garden of eden 'willingly'.  We had to.  It was the punishment. 
These verses demonstrate that God is 'responsible' for allowing this evil world but I don't think that must mean He is also to blame.  I can see a difference. 

I can accept that God deliberately put the tree of knowledge of good and bad in order to tempt Adam and Eve.  He 'tested' their obedience and knew they would disobey and would have to learn the hard way what happens when we disobey.  I can even accept that He planned this (temporary) seperation from Him whilst working out His plan of reconciliation and perfection through His Son.  I can't understand how certain types of evil (child abuse etc) can be part of this plan.  If we look at faithful people like Abraham (and even folk like Adam and Eve) who lived their lives without killing people and committing terrible acts of evil.  They were still subject to the 'corruption' of their fallen state.  All through the Bible we are told to be good and not sin.  So certain types of sins are not part of God's purpose so it seems.....??

[WhiteWings]

He also likens God's creation of humans to 'machines' that malfunction.

Humans are not machines that 'malfunction'.  We were made in God's image.  I think it 'foolish' to use this kind of comparison. 

Image is sometimes translated as shadow.
We might be an image but a very vad one because our powers are faaaar from those of God

[Cat]

He also likens God's creation of humans to 'machines' that malfunction.

Humans are not machines that 'malfunction'.  We were made in God's image.  I think it 'foolish' to use this kind of comparison. 

Image is sometimes translated as shadow.
We might be an image but a very vad one because our powers are faaaar from those of God

Yes, I agree, our 'resemblance' to God is very limited at the minute, although the power of Christ causes the transformation of ourselves into 'Christ' or 'God'.  But we are far from 'machines', that is sure.  That would suggest we are robots that cannot do anything 'freely', which if was the case, why bother with trying to 'flee from sin'?

I just thought of this scripture: Jer 7:31- isn't EVERYTHING (according to Ray Smith) meant to be purposed by God?  This would seem to contradict that.  And I would say that 'child abuse' 'rape' 'torture' are also things that don't come into God's heart.

I can't understand this sentiment of Ray's: "I know that many people think I am too hard on Christian heresy. That's because I love them. Would you not show a little "hard" tough love to your children if they were taking mind-destroying DRUGS".  He's just spent the last few pages saying how we don't have free will and God purposes EVERYTHING that happens.  These 'heretics' must have been purposed by God, so why all the fuss?  See how this seems nonsensical?

[gregoryfl]

Cat,

I understand why it seems to be nonsensical, but consider that God not only creates the end, but also the means to that end. For example, God is said to work in us both the desire and the actions that please him, yet he also said through Paul to work out our salvation. The end in this case are those things which please him, and God works that in us. However, one of the means by which he chooses to accomplish this is to use people like Paul to encourage us to work it out. The two may seem mutually exclusive, but they go hand in hand, simply because God wanted it to be that way. Hopefully this makes some sense of it. :)

Ron

[Paul Hazelwood]

Why would God be grieved if all this is part of His plan?

Good question, but then we can also wonder why this verse is is in the bible.

1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.




People can actually be afraid of contemplating what this verse may mean.   It could mean that there is indeed only one way to gain perfection and God cannot change it.   This does not make God something we can overpower, it is just TRUTH.

Do you think God knowing the path we MUST take is not grieved that we will experience evil?   Knowing it is the only path to righteousness?   

Why does the bible need to even contain such a verse, is it just another riddle that we convolute so that we are comfortable in continuing the thought that there are no limits to God?   Perhaps the limits have nothing to do with strength or power or sovereignty, it is simply the way it is and has to be.

[legoman]

Cat,

Here is Jer 7:31 from the KJV:

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Some versions say it never "came into my mind", but some versions say it never came into "my heart".  I believe the 2nd is the better translation - if it never really came into the Lord's mind, then that would mean he is not all-knowing.  By "my heart", we mean the emotional area of the conscious - it was not God's direct purpose that people should burn their sons & daughters in fire.  Yet it was still necessary in the grand purpose of God's plan of the ages.

By the way, this is a good verse to show the truth of UR - God does not want his children to be burned in fire - it never entered his heart - yet he will send them (or let them go) into hell for eternity?!?  I don't think so...

Legoman

[legoman]

Do you think God knowing the path we MUST take is not grieved that we will experience evil?   Knowing it is the only path to righteousness?   

Exactly.  God is like the parent who grieves when his son must go through discipline or adversity - it may not be a fun experience, yet it is completely necessary so that His children will develop the necessary character that God wishes.

Gen 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

It is a silly thought to suggest that God became so angry at his failed creation that he changed his plan and just decided to wipe out creation.  Was the creation out of control so much that God had to react and restart?  Was God's first attempt a giant mistake - only worthy of being destroyed?  Did God make a mistake?!?  I don't think so - remember God is sovereign and is only working on plan A.  There is no need for plan B.

Therefore it was God's plan from the beginning that eventually he would have to wipe them out with the flood (save Noah's familiy) because he knew they would become so evil - because he had purposed it would happen that way!

Yet this still grieved God.  This is the amazing part.  This was all part of God's perfect plan - it had to be that way, it could be no other way.  It was all necessary so that God's plan can be achieved.  God love's us more than we know... even so much that he is giving us an experience of evil. 

Ecc 1:13 "It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (CLV)

Legoman

[Zeek]

i often wonder if the bible is written from "man's perspective" of God, in other words; man perceived God to be grieved, etc.  Written from a mind of "man failed God". 

. 

Where do emotions come from??  Does God really have emotions?? 

Don't emotions change from event to event?  tossed around based on external?  Can man really cause God to be grieved??  Seems then he would be a victim??

Good things happen---->happiness
Bad things happen---->sadness, grief etc?? 

are emotions a result of not being centered?? 

Is God centered??  The ROCK??

just thinking. 

[Nathan]

Well . . .God so "loved" the world . . .if God can love, he can be angered, pleasured . .he pleasures in me.  I believe he's "not" an unemotional being, so that would then leave that he then must be . . . emotional.

[Zeek]

Well . . .God so "loved" the world . . .if God can love, he can be angered, pleasured . .he pleasures in me.  I believe he's "not" an unemotional being, so that would then leave that he then must be . . . emotional.

i'm not sure love is an emotion

[Zeek]

is fear an emotion??

God can not fear

[Zeek]

 
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


can one have grief without sorrow?? 

[WhiteWings]

Gen 6:5,6.  Why would God be grieved if all this is part of His plan? 

Genesis 6:5-6  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Perhaps He dislikes some part of His own plan? But the plan has to be that way... Just a tought.
The 2 verses are kinda weird IMO. If you read them it almost seems God was caught by suprise by the wickedness of man.
But he did know the wickedness would take place; even before creation.
I see it this way.
God designed a perfect plan. He is executing the plan righ now. Bad things like punishment are part of that plan. God is sad during the days of punishment; just like a parent isn't happy during spanking a child for his/her own good.

I can even accept that He planned this (temporary) seperation from Him whilst working out His plan of reconciliation and perfection through His Son.  I can't understand how certain types of evil (child abuse etc) can be part of this plan.

Neither can I. But I don't understand anything about His plan anyway. Why 'insert' evil with the goal of removing it?
Why not just create 15 billion saints in Heaven?

[bobf]

Neither can I. But I don't understand anything about His plan anyway. Why 'insert' evil with the goal of removing it?
Why not just create 15 billion saints in Heaven?

Because a saint must have an experiencial knowlege of evil, and of overcoming evil with good?

[Cat]

Hi Ron, thanks for your thoughts on this.  It seems to me that if God provides the 'desire' and the 'actions' in us that please Him , that would suggest nothing is in our control, but the whole 'tone' of the Bible seems to suggest that we have got some kind of control, albeight restricted, but nevertheless we are capable of choosing good actions over bad. E.g Jesus told a story of two men who were asked to do something and one said he would but didn't and the other didn't really want to but did.  Can't remember where it is.  There are other verses where God is asking us to choose e.g Deut 30:19, Josh 24 :15.  

Hi Paul, you quoted 1C 1:25.  I rather imagined this to be understood along the lines that Judge Judy Scheindlin (I'm a great fan) likes to boast: 'On my worst day, I'm cleverer than you are on your best day' or words to that effect.  In the same way, when I read that God has 'wings' I don't understand that to be literal.  You said: "Do you think God knowing the path we MUST take is not grieved that we will experience evil?   Knowing it is the only path to righteousness?" - Of course this is true, but what doesn't make sense if you are to go along the lines of Ray Smith's reasoning, is that God 'intended' all the suffering as His big plan and that must mean He intended the Moors Murderers (Myra Hindley and Ian Bradey) to torture, abuse and kill children.  I cannot accept that and the very thought repulses me.  I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.

Hi Legoman, you said: 'it was not God's direct purpose' - this is what I have been trying to convey.  God knew evil would have to be part of His plan for a limited time and He uses 'evil' to accomplish His judgments etc (He doesn't use things like rape, abuse etc).  The evils mankind and angels have 'created' are not directly intended by God, but He knows that every conceivable type of evil will be 'tried' if you like.

A lot of Ray Smith's article combines UR and eternal torment in with the 'evil' stuff and this mixes things up somewhat.  I have no problem with the idea of UR and hope it is true but I'm not fully convinced as yet.  I already know for sure there is no literal hell and hell's flames.  These are not issues for me.  The big issue at the minute is understanding where you guys come from with this 'evil' stuff.  I'm not sure why only Universalists have come to this conclusion, although I'm sure not all of you believe this.  I'll contine my replies to you all in my next post.  Running out of space......

[Cat]

Legoman, you went on to talk about God's reaction in Gen 6 and how it was still God's plan to wipe them out.  I re read the verses and I am struck by how God judged that world and wiped them out.  I don't get the impression it was His will at all.  I don't get the impression we can thwart God in some way by being disobedient, which is what seems to be claimed, when talking of free will.  God is always in control.

Hi Bobf, you said: 'Because a saint must have an experiencial knowlege of evil, and of overcoming evil with good?'  I can accept this no problem.  Adam and Eve experience evil in that they started to grow old and eventually die.  I don't see how a baby needs to experience being abused and killed??  What purpose does that serve?  The terrible death that Jesus suffered for us was known by Jesus beforehand.  He knew it would happen and he agreed to it and suffered terribly for us to pay the price (I struggle to understand and appreciate this and wonder why God can't just forgive us??)  Soldiers going into battle know they may be giving their lives etc.  Innocent children don't ask to be murdered......(I've got a baby grandson so I get emotional thinking about how evil man can be, and I'm sure some of that is sickness as opposed to being 'evil'  but I can't equate evil or sickness with God). 

[Paul Hazelwood]

I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.

Cat,  do you think a possibility exists along these lines.


God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say,  "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused".  God  grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?

We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough.   Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?

Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?


Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says   "Oh my,  I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?

[Molly]

I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.

Cat,  do you think a possibility exists along these lines.


God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say,  "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused".  God  grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?

We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough.   Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?

Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?


Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says   "Oh my,  I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?

12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
 13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

--Luke 19



God has left the planet.  He's left us in charge.  How are we doing so far?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I can accept that evil will become a reality to beings made in the image of God who have free will, and this is something that God feels pain for and wishes we didn't have to learn the hard way, but allows the evil to be worked through in order that we fully understand it's effects and can 'banish' it forever.

Cat,  do you think a possibility exists along these lines.


God as powerful as he is, knows the end result of what we go through and rather than God (in our perception) thinking up a plan to say,  "At this time I need this child to be raped and abused".  God  grieves knowing that a path to that childs righteousness must include that and God himself has no choice but to allow it in order for us to be more than just some blot on a computer screen, mindless and controlled by himself?

We can look at it a number of ways Cat, and it is tough.   Where do we actually move the goal posts to in order to reconcile our thoughts?

Does it actually make you feel better knowing God "should" have not allowed a child to be created so it never had to endure being raped or tortured but went ahead and allowed it anyway?


Or do you entertain the thought that God witnesses child rape and torture and somehow says   "Oh my,  I didn't mean for that to happen, oops, sorry"?

12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
 13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

--Luke 19



God has left the planet.  He's left us in charge.  How are we doing so far?

Well, if He's not here I'm not going to bother looking for him.