The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)

[claypot]

Tman: The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point

TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. 



Man, that's good T. So much said with so few words. I wish I could master that technique!

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]

This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true.  Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.

I think there is truth no matter where the comma is.

Paradise is an existance not a feeling to me.   If he meant that day, or meant he was saying it that day,  knowing Jesus is true is paradise to me.

[Chris]

But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

AMEN Molly!!

If you look at every other instance where Christ says: "I say unto thee..." he never once says "I say unto thee today....". Not once. 

Like Fire says, it's a matter of knowing what "TODAY" means, especially as it pertains to "Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts".

Heb 3:13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

What did His disciple say?? TODAY is THE THIRD DAY?? 

[Chris]

But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]

This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true.  Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.

Paul
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point

TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. 

 

 

Even before Christ's body came down from the cross His Spirit was with the Father!!

Luke 23:46  And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

[Pierac]

But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]

This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true.  Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.

Paul
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point

TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. 

 

 

Even before Christ's body came down from the cross His Spirit was with the Father!!

Luke 23:46  And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ecc 12:7  then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

[Molly]

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.





32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

--Acts 2

[Pierac]

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.





32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

--Acts 2

Indeed and on the third day too.

[Chris]

But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]

This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true.  Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.

Paul
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point

TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY. 

 

 

Even before Christ's body came down from the cross His Spirit was with the Father!!

Luke 23:46  And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ecc 12:7  then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Exactly!!

And is it not OUR SPIRIT that THE SPIRIT (of God) bears witness to, telling us that we are the children of God?

And isn't it THE SPIRIT that is quickened (by Christ who is A QUICKENING SPIRIT), while the flesh PROFITS NOTHING?

And did not Paul turn "such as one" over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so "that THE SPIRIT may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"?


If our "spirit" is nothing more than the spirit/breath of God that gives life to the soul/body then why does it need to be "witnessed to", "quickened", and "saved"?

Why are we told that there is a NATURAL body and that there is a SPIRITUAL body AND that if this earthly tabernacle (a natural body) were DISSOLVED that we know that we ~HAVE~ "an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (a spiritual body)?

Sounds like there is AN INWARD MAN (SPIRIT), as well as AN OUTWARD MAN (FLESH).

ONE is saved (perhaps "a vessel of mercy" ??) while the other profits NOTHING, returning to the dust from which it came (perhaps "a vessel fitted for destruction" ??)

No wonder Paul tells us: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." 

[Nathan]

Hey Chris . . .something kind of jumped up while reading your post.  "If" my flesh profits nothing . . . hmm . .how can I word this?  For those that believe that it's only during "this" physical life that you can have the opportunity to be saved . .that would then mean flesh profiteth much.  It would be flesh that gives my soul the opportunity to be saved.

Incidentally . . .does anyone know where this idea actually derives?  Anyone know which Scripture is used to base the idea that only in this life can one be saved . .but once one dies, it's all over???

[Doc]

Nathan; I'm pretty sure it's Hebrews, where "it is appointed to men once to die, and after this, the judgment". But how they get that doctrine out of that verse, I'll never know...

[Nathan]

I think so many times, we don't question things not because we haven't come across it in Scripture, but we don't question it because the church seems so confident and adamant that it's already a sealed issue.  Cemented in stone.  This life is the only opportunity you have to gain entrance into heaven.  Which then means that this life in the flesh "does" profit much . . .rather than profit nothing as Scripture states.

I'm learning there are MANY things we've been told God said that God never said.  But in order to receive this to be true in us, one either has to leave the church in order to embrace it, or remain in the church embracing it either in secret or openly and be a heretic.  Obviously, I fall under the latter . .oh . .speaking of being a heretic . . .

For those of you who were concerned for me in the pastor's meeting I had to attend this past Saturday, thank you for your prayers and it went really great.  Other than the fact that my wife and I were an hour late for the meeting due to our alarm not going off . . .ever since one of the twins poured koolade on my alarm clock . . .it hasn't been the same. 

Anyway . . . things appear to be blowing over, they are taking a bit of a different approach in our meetings in an attempt to make them more productive . . .we're actually going to have prayer and worship as part of our itinerary now.  And . . . the host pastor of our next meeting in February has approached me and asked if I'd be the one to lead the worship . . .. crazy how things work out sometimes.

[ScarletWren]

That is fantastic, Nathan,

God is good!!

[Cat]

Legoman said in his first post:

"Verses like Roman 16:26 where God is described as "aionios" simply mean that God is "pertaining to the ages", or is "eonian".   God is a pesonal God and is very involved with the eons - he created the eons, he set the eons in motion, he framed the eons, he has a plan for the eons: therefore he is the God of the eons and can be called the eonian God."

I'm quite new to UR and come from a JW background (I didn't become a JW but I thought they had it right on quite a lot of stuff like: when you die, you are 'unconcious' until you are resurrected; there is no hell, but rather the wicked or unrepentant are 'snuffed out' of existence for all eternity.  I still can't quite believe that 'ALL' could be reconciled or saved, as much as my heart thinks it the most wonderful concept.  Anyway, getting back to the subject of this thread, I've been struggling to understand the comparison of 'aionios' in Matt 25:46.  The comparison must surely be viewed the same as universalists view the 'all' in Rom 5:19.  I understand why God is referred to as 'aionian' for the reasons Legoman cites, but I'm puzzled as to why Jesus uses 'aionios' for the life that I've always assumed was the 'eternal' life you receive when you are resurrected.  The 'life' that Jesus has come to give us,is not like the life we experience now, which is temporal or 'aionios' which I read time and again means 'has a beginning and an end'.  The 'life' that Jesus wants to give us is superior (incorruptible) so I'm very confused with this verse and the other verses that talk of 'aionios' life.  I could understand if the verses spoke of aionios life  which lead on to 'aidios' life.  I've read many articles relating to Matt 25:46 and I can't grasp the point they are making.  If 'aionios' must always mean a set period of time that had a beginning and will have an end, then I just don't understand why this word is used time and again when referring to the life which is surely the life one receives when they are resurrected?  Paul makes clear that you are raised immortal etc.  Where is my thinking tripping me up?   

[Doc]

Legoman said in his first post:

"Verses like Roman 16:26 where God is described as "aionios" simply mean that God is "pertaining to the ages", or is "eonian".   God is a pesonal God and is very involved with the eons - he created the eons, he set the eons in motion, he framed the eons, he has a plan for the eons: therefore he is the God of the eons and can be called the eonian God."

I'm quite new to UR and come from a JW background (I didn't become a JW but I thought they had it right on quite a lot of stuff like: when you die, you are 'unconcious' until you are resurrected; there is no hell, but rather the wicked or unrepentant are 'snuffed out' of existence for all eternity.  I still can't quite believe that 'ALL' could be reconciled or saved, as much as my heart thinks it the most wonderful concept.  Anyway, getting back to the subject of this thread, I've been struggling to understand the comparison of 'aionios' in Matt 25:46.  The comparison must surely be viewed the same as universalists view the 'all' in Rom 5:19.  I understand why God is referred to as 'aionian' for the reasons Legoman cites, but I'm puzzled as to why Jesus uses 'aionios' for the life that I've always assumed was the 'eternal' life you receive when you are resurrected.  The 'life' that Jesus has come to give us,is not like the life we experience now, which is temporal or 'aionios' which I read time and again means 'has a beginning and an end'.  The 'life' that Jesus wants to give us is superior (incorruptible) so I'm very confused with this verse and the other verses that talk of 'aionios' life.  I could understand if the verses spoke of aionios life  which lead on to 'aidios' life.  I've read many articles relating to Matt 25:46 and I can't grasp the point they are making.  If 'aionios' must always mean a set period of time that had a beginning and will have an end, then I just don't understand why this word is used time and again when referring to the life which is surely the life one receives when they are resurrected?  Paul makes clear that you are raised immortal etc.  Where is my thinking tripping me up?   

Cat, it might help some for you to view aionios as more of a quality, rather than so much as a quantity. Aionios as I see it, is more along the lines of a quality pertaining to a quantity. Aion is more properly a set period of time, although it does seem to carry connotations of not really being able to "see" the end of it, even though we know there is an end to it. Aionios/ aionion is more descriptive of the quality of life as it pertains to the aion(s). Aionios and the words for immortal/ incorruptible are not synonyms. We know that aionios life ends at some point even though the incorruptible/ immortal life (when God is all in all) doesn't end. Does that help?

[WhiteWings]

Jesus finished his parable of the sheep and the goats with the words: They will go away to aeonian punishment, but the righteous to aeonian life (Mat 25: 46). The primary meaning of the Greek word kolasis ( kolasiV), here translated punishment, is correction. Was Jesus speaking of everlasting correction? What sort of correction could go on for ever and ever? Is God unable to complete his work? Aeonian punishment or correction takes place in the higher, unseen spiritual realm, beyond the time and space of our material world. Gods corrective and restorative purposes for his whole creation will be perfectly achieved.

I see it like this:
Those who lived good lives directly move on to the good part.
The wicked have a bad period ahead but after correction join the other group.
Then there is the conclusion of the aions. No more aions/time.

Another thing is that this is judgement of works. Read the few verses before this one.
So it isn't even about faith in Jesus. And that faith is teh only way into heaven.

[Nathan]

Jesus finished his parable of the sheep and the goats with the words: They will go away to aeonian punishment, but the righteous to aeonian life (Mat 25: 46). The primary meaning of the Greek word kolasis ( kolasiV), here translated punishment, is correction. Was Jesus speaking of everlasting correction? What sort of correction could go on for ever and ever? Is God unable to complete his work? Aeonian punishment or correction takes place in the higher, unseen spiritual realm, beyond the time and space of our material world. Gods corrective and restorative purposes for his whole creation will be perfectly achieved.

I see it like this:
Those who lived good lives directly move on to the good part.
The wicked have a bad period ahead but after correction join the other group.
Then there is the conclusion of the aions. No more aions/time.

Another thing is that this is judgement of works. Read the few verses before this one.
So it isn't even about faith in Jesus. And that faith is teh only way into heaven.

Of course it's about faith in Christ . .that's the crux of it all.  Judgment does not come based on your works . . .it comes due to rejection of the one who gives us free passage.  The works are merely evidence of the fact that rejection has taken place.  If you accept Christ . . .he then is working in you both to will and to do his good pleasure . . .he's transforming your desires into his.  So that the works on the outside will reflect what has happened on the inside. 

Works are simply outside evidence of an inside decision

[Cat]

Doc, if I understand the grammatical reasonings behind the adjective 'aionios' then the adjective MUST agree in meaning with the noun; it can't mean something different.  So the 'quality' of life mentioned by Jesus, seems to be pertaining to 'ages' and ages are temporary.  (I've read that we may be in the 4th age, and the next age is the 1000 year reign or Kingdom Age).  Why use a word that can only mean 'temporary' or for a certain period of time with an end?  We ALREADY have 'aionios' life surely, in that we are in time and we live in one of the ages.  Why didn't Jesus use the Greek word for 'immortal' to describe the superior life that only He can give to us unless of course, some of the Greek scholars are right, and aionios can mean 'eternal'??  The judgment that Jesus speaks of, for the goats, is not one of endless torment, but rather their being 'cut off' and their permanent death sentence is an endless judgment or punishment? 

Whitewings and Nathan, thanks for your thoughts too.  I've got this mind block.  Because I've always read the verses as 'eternal' life, it's strange to not view it like that now, and I don't understand still.........

[sven]

2 Corinthians 4:18 makes me the most problems:

while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time (proskairos), but those that are not seen eternal (aionios)

what does proskairos mean? - it may just contrast short time with long time, not time in general with eternity?

[Cat]

Sven,  thanks for bringing this verse to my attention.  It seems to compound the points I've been making.  I hope someone here can explain these verses for us! 

[legoman]

L. Ray Smith has written on 2 Cor 4:18 over at bible-truths.com

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2166.msg17406.html#msg17406

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

Here is an excerpt:

Comment: The concept of "eternity" is foreign to the Holy Scriptures. There is virtually nothing that is outside of the time periods known as aions. There are just a couple of hints regarding life beyond the ages of time. Luke speaks of things pertaining to the Kingdom, not coming to an end. And Paul tells us that in resurrection we will have "incorruption" and "immortality" signifying "deathlessness," but neither word has to do with time itself. Paul also speaks of a time in which God will be "ALL in all." That is the extent to which the Scriptures even hint of eternity or anything beyond the ages of time.

II Cor. 4:18 is neither speaking of "deathless" or "everlasting," as you suggest. It is speaking of what is happening now, in our life of flesh, and what will happen during the ages of our reign with Christ in the kingdom of God. The things of this life, we SEE daily. The things pertaining to the Kingdom of God are as yet "NOT seen." Again, it is not even speaking of what is "visible" and "Invisible," but rather what is NOW SEEN as compared with things "eonian" and NOT YET SEEN, which when seen will not be temporary, but will last through whole eons of time. And all that is perfected through the Kingdom of God and the reign of Christ bringing all enemies into subjection, will last on PAST the eons, and will have NO END.

The next great event in prophecy is not eternity, but rather the END of this eon and the BEGINNING of the next—the one in which the very elect will reign with Christ. There is no sense in jumping into eternity when as yet, we have numerous ages to yet live and administer God's government and His Great Judgment. And so, what is not yet seen, is "eonian" (pertaining to the eons), and not "eternity" as you and the King James suggests in this verse."


That explains it for me.

Legoman

[Tony N]

I'm surprised none of you said that "Today" is the name of the thief on the cross, kind of like we name some girls "Tuesday." I bought a dog from a girl named Tuesday. That dog died this year.

"I am saying to you Today . . . "

Hey it's as good as some of the other thoughts here.

disclaimer: I don't really think the thief on the cross was named "Today." Maybe Threeday but not Today.

I'm glad I stayed out of this conversation as it has developed in a way I would never have thought it would, and, who knows, if I got involved from its beginning I may have interfered with all the thoughts on this subject. Some thoughts make me want to  and some make me  and some are very  and some thoughts make me think some are their ideas like a circus act.

But it is good to see all the different ideas, I guess.

Can you imagine if all of you thought just like me? 

I guess it ain't gonna happen. Best to just get along, share our thoughts, fellowship in love.

It's like the ole saying:j

If you love someone let them go.
If they don't return, hunt them down and beat the crap out of them! Ha!

Well, O.K. not exactly like that. LOL!

I'm sitting in an old Mill built in the early 1800's drinking a cup of coffee with my pup beside me on a couch, and me with my laptop using wireless, communicating to fellow believers around the world. How cool is that? The founders of our United States never imagined what our day would be like with jet aircraft, people going to the moon and living on a space station and we communicating through the air with devices we put up to our ears.


Tony

[Cat]

Legoman, thanks for the links.  I'll check them out.  I'm rather cautious of L. Ray Smith, as his beliefs on evil and its origins are let's say rather unorthodox and could even be blasphemous. 

[legoman]

Legoman, thanks for the links.  I'll check them out.  I'm rather cautious of L. Ray Smith, as his beliefs on evil and its origins are let's say rather unorthodox and could even be blasphemous. 

Some would call it heresy, but others would call it the TRUTH 

Seriously, I've read most of Ray Smith's stuff multiple times - you may fault him for his delivery, but I believe he speaks the truth - everything he says is backed by scripture.

Perhaps this is off-topic, but Isaiah 45:7 seems to say it clearly:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [Ra]: I the LORD do all these things.

Cheers,
Legoman

[Cat]

Legoman, I would agree that his delivery could be more loving and patient, but that aside, I too thought his reasonings on the evil thing quite convincing, but then I checked out this article:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

A few snippets from it:

"Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil." "

"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. (Job 34:10)"

"For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. (Psalms 5:4)"

I don't see any point in looking beyond these scriptures and risk attributing 'evil' to the Holy God who IS Love.  We can't really comprehend how God can tolerate evil and hold back His hand when terrible things happen, but one day we will understand..

[WhiteWings]

Cat,

Many translations don't use the word evil you are right about that. But at least they say God creates something negative. Not just love. What is darkness? Just dark or evil?
God created everything. God also knew what kind of evil His creation would do.
It's not that God created the love part of the world and another god created the evil part.
Some translations:

Isa 45:7

(Complete Apostles' Bible)  I am He that prepared light, and formed darkness; who makes peace, and creates calamity; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

(ASV)  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

(BBE)  I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

(VW) forming the light and creating darkness; making peace and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.

(Brenton)  I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

(CEV)  I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all of this.

(Darby)  forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

(DRB)  I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

(DSV)  Ik formeer het licht, en schep de duisternis; Ik maak den vrede en schep het kwaad, Ik, de HEERE, doe al deze dingen.

(ESV)  I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

(Geneva)  I forme the light and create darkenes: I make peace and create euill: I the Lorde doe all these things.

(GNB)  I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.

(GW)  I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

(JPS)  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

(KJ2000)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

(KJV)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(KJV-1611)  I forme the light, and create darkenesse: I make peace, and create euill: I the Lord do all these things.

(KJVA)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(KJVR)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(LITV)  forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.

(MKJV)  forming the light and creating darkness; making peace and creating evil. I Jehovah do all these things.

(NET.)  I am the one who forms light
   and creates darkness;
   the one who brings about peace
   and creates calamity.
   I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

(Rotherham) Forming light and creating darkness, Making prosperity, and creating misfortune,—I—Yahweh, who doeth all these.

(RV)  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

(The Scriptures 1998+) forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil. I, יהוה, do all these.'

(UPDV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, that does all these things.

(Webster)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(YLT)  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'