Author Topic: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)  (Read 20769 times)

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Offline legoman

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The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« on: January 12, 2009, 06:30:00 PM »
Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal [aionios] God, so that all nations might believe and obey him

Rev 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever [aions of aions].


After learning that aion/aionios doesn't refer to eternal/eternity the above verses and others like it caused me problems.

If aion/aionios only means a finite duration of time, then the above verses would have to mean that God eventually dies or ceases to exist, right?  This totally refutes UR, right?  WRONG my friend  :Sparkletooth:

Verses like Roman 16:26 where God is described as "aionios" simply mean that God is "pertaining to the ages", or is "eonian".   God is a pesonal God and is very involved with the eons - he created the eons, he set the eons in motion, he framed the eons, he has a plan for the eons: therefore he is the God of the eons and can be called the eonian God.  This in no way restricts the duration of God's existence, anymore than a statment saying God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, restricts God.  If God is the God of Abraham and Jacob, is He also not still the God of you and me?

So a statement saying God is eonian is simply saying God is relevant to the eons.

What about Rev 15:7 - it says God lives for the eons of the eons.  Doesn't that mean God will not live after the eons end?  WRONG AGAIN my friend  :Sparkletooth:

Saying God lives for the eons of the eons, implies no restriction about what happens after the eons end.  Like Matthew 25:46, for the answer of what happens after the eons end we have to look at other scripture.  All that Rev 15:7 is saying is that God is alive right now, during all the eons.

But is God truly eternal?  YES:

1 Tim 6:15 ...God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.


Psalm 102:27 But you remain the same,
       and your years will never end.

God will go on forever because He is immortal and His years will never end.

And while we are on the topic what about God's Kingdom (heaven)?:

Luke 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever [greek: for the ages]; his kingdom will never end."

Notice that Christ's reign is only for the ages and will eventually end (this confirms 1 Cor 15:25), but the Kingdom has no end and is truly eternal.

Hope this has been helpful for those new to UR.
Cheers,
Legoman

martincisneros

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 07:13:36 PM »
And it may only be an English pecularity that wouldn't change the presentation that you made, Legoman, but the translation that you quoted actually seems to say that one of the living creatures, who liveth for ever and ever, or that the seven angels live for ever and ever, or in both cases "ages of ages" in the Greek.  Perhaps it's clearer in the Greek 'cause I see that a few other translations give that ambiguity.  You could even read it that the seven golden bowls filled with the wrath that lives for the eons of eons, or that the seven golden bowls live for the eons of eons.  Just going by the English on Revelation 15:7 that you presented. 

Aions of Aions does appear to be the duration given to any creature, other than God, reigning or being reigned over by either others or punishment.  In the book of Revelation, a couple of the "God" references are specifically talking about Christ Jesus, even in the Concordant Literal, which is an important point to bring up for Trinitarians that just about choke to death on the Concordant's handling of Revelation 3:14. 

The problem has been that everything we've considered foundational -- to almost every doctrine -- has been built upon really horrible translations and then we [often] can't endure good translations that differ on our proof texts, when the strong likelihood is that if the doctrine will stand the scrutiny, then it may very well be proven by other texts previously obscured by bad translations rather than having to defend classic readings tooth and nail.  So, the likelihood that "ages of ages" in the book of Revelation simply talking about His reign leading up to 1Corinthians 15:28 is very high.

Much of our defense of UR gives too much to the fundamentalist as though certain passages were saying what the fundamentalist insists that it was saying.  Eternal Life in the evangelical way of looking at it can never ever be based upon aion or aionios, but must be looked at through the word akataluton in Hebrews 7 'cause we're joint-heirs of His life, but there is no corresponding indestructibility to the punishments that the wicked endure.  And it must be looked upon based upon the nature of God's singular intent that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  That's why for years the name of my website was Universal Repentance, based upon a series of writings of the same title, rather than other terms for the Global and Extradimensional conquest on the part of the Gospel.

Ezekiel says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked should repent and live.  Reading that verse more carefully a few times, it seems to speak of post death repentance although as a secondary meaning when the primary meaning is obviously the warning of Israel not to die in their sin.  Because the verse is saying that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, as though an accusation were being addressed that God was gleeful 'cause so and so had died.

Some take the eroneous stand that William Barclay took that because of these two passages, (i.e. Romans and Revelation cited in opening post,) and maybe one or two more, that therefore aionios sometimes means eternal and sometimes means finite time depending on the context.  But no word in any language means one thing and it's exact opposite depending upon it's context.  Aioios simply means "an age pertaining to_________(fill in the blank)" and that's where your context comes in.  But the context doesn't ever determine aionios to mean "eternal."  In the book of Revelation quote, contextually it can even be used to define the punishments as eons of eons because that's how much time God is willing to devote to them as denoting Him as living to the eons of eons (i.e. as a punisher).  God works through the ages to accomplish the salvation of all, rather than eternally, according to Romans 16. 

Not sure if someone more well versed in Greek will tear me apart on this point.  If they can, I prefer it to saying this for 75 more years, but eons of eons or ages of ages seems to be saying to me, not just a duration of the several different ages that have made up the creation being revisited or repeated or being punished or given life in proportion to, but it seems to be conveying to me the idea of the eons within the eons, which for me pulls out their extradimensionality in content/substance, extent, and purpose.  Because duration by itself doesn't really reach the deepest part of either the blessed or the condemned, but if it's punishment or reigning within the eons of the eons, which more closely reaches my interpretation of St. Paul, then all that can be addressed by those in the superior position to the punished will finally be realized.

Offline legoman

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 07:40:48 PM »
Hi Martin,

You raise some good points.  I hadn't even considered the other possible readings of Rev 15:7.  I'm sure there are other verses that talk about God being forever and ever, my original argument was focused on these types of verses.

Like you say, part of the problem is our foundation is completely wrong.  A new believer of UR has to unlearn years and years of teachings before UR starts to make sense.  I would guess its easier for an athiest to believe in UR than a Christian to convert to UR.

Look at the word "eternal".  This is to do with infinite time or timelessness.  When one learns that the real word is eonian (aionios, pertaining to the ages, etc), and not "eternal", its easy to carry the baggage of the old learning and assume that eonian is still to do with a time period.  In a way eonian is refering to time periods, but it is not restrictive or specific in the way that "eternal" is.  Yet that is what we assume.  Hm, did that make sense?

I think of it this way:  If there was a verse that said "God is red", would the following conclusions make sense?
- God is not eternal because God is red
OR
- red must be eternal

Now neither of those 2 statements follow logically from the simple statement "God is red".

Yet Christains make those same exact illogical arguments when the statement is "God is aionios".  They say either:
- aionios must mean eternal
OR
- God is not eternal

Neither which is logically sound, and both which "refute" UR.  And its only because of their "indoctrination" and foundation.

Its just so difficult to unlearn what you thought was the truth.  And then of course many people have a vested interest in keeping the old "truth"...

Legoman



Offline Doc

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 09:17:12 PM »
Part of the problem is that in the process of unlearning, there's a lot of stuff to wrap your head around. I suspect it would be best when introducing most people to the idea of UR; to do it gradually, one piece at a time. The thing that seems like it'd be most effective is to start them questioning one or two of the central presuppositions of ET/ES and then go from there.

Randy Klassen's book: What Does the Bible Really Say About Hell? might be a good place to start getting people's feet wet. Then move on from there as you get the green light from the Spirit, gradually introducing them to more topics, like word studies on the meanings of key words, like aion and the words for "destruction" and "punishment."

If you can get people to realize that their very concept of "hell" is not biblical, then a lot of times it's easier to start introducing the other stuff, as most of what Christians believe eschatologically is based heavily on their unscriptural view of "hell".


On Sunday, our pastor made a couple comments at the beginning of his sermon (not specifically aimed at UR) about those out there who are trying to change the gospel to make it more 'palatable'. Well, which "gospel" is that? I shook my head internally as I realized that he has no clue that the mainstream "gospel" he's referring to and attempting to defend has already been changed to something that isn't even the gospel. He also commented that some are trying to do away with "eternal hell." Well again, which "hell" is that? Gehenna "hell", "Hades hell", or Tartarus/Tartaroo "hell"? Sooo much assumption due to so many years of biased teaching/ indoctrination and shoddy/ biased transliteration.
 
Ironically, the topic of the sermon series he's on is about how we need to have real joy as believers.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

martincisneros

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 12:49:01 AM »
It's not so much that Christians have anything to unlearn.  I haven't found very many Christians that have transitioned into UR that have had to rebuild from scratch, although that's a paranoia that can run deep for many Christians coming into the reality of UR.  It's simply as I said with knowing things in your knower and basing things off of the wrong verses 'cause of bad translations.  When things are properly translated, then most of the doctrines hold up, but not on the previously held proof texts.  There's still over 150 verses that talk about the tenth in virtually any translation, since that's a favorite one of UR folks to pick on, but you've got to restudy "ten" in the Scriptures rather than singling out the word "tithe" and being more of a literalist on it than you ever intend to be on any other doctrine.  If the tenth has been done away with, then Christ was seated in vain 'cause UR, the validation of every other Spiritual gift and of the New Birth and a billion other precepts of the Gospel can be asserted and maintained with Him simply having ascended into heaven, but His seating implies Kingship in every area of life that He extends to every believer provided they use the right access codes that are in place to keep the devil out of the laws of the Spirit of Life.  There's protections built into the New Covenant that have to remain in place until Satan goes into the Lake of Fire.  Otherwise, he'd retake the kingdoms of the world as he did in the Garden of Eden and all men would remain blinded until 1Corinthians 15:28.  As things are right now, the Kingdoms of the world are ours and the talents in the parable of Christ corresponds to the nations that we exercise lordship over under the guidance of the Lord of lords.

Offline Doc

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 01:38:08 AM »
It's not so much that Christians have anything to unlearn.  I haven't found very many Christians that have transitioned into UR that have had to rebuild from scratch, although that's a paranoia that can run deep for many Christians coming into the reality of UR.  It's simply as I said with knowing things in your knower and basing things off of the wrong verses 'cause of bad translations.  When things are properly translated, then most of the doctrines hold up, but not on the previously held proof texts.  There's still over 150 verses that talk about the tenth in virtually any translation, since that's a favorite one of UR folks to pick on, but you've got to restudy "ten" in the Scriptures rather than singling out the word "tithe" and being more of a literalist on it than you ever intend to be on any other doctrine.  If the tenth has been done away with, then Christ was seated in vain 'cause UR, the validation of every other Spiritual gift and of the New Birth and a billion other precepts of the Gospel can be asserted and maintained with Him simply having ascended into heaven, but His seating implies Kingship in every area of life that He extends to every believer provided they use the right access codes that are in place to keep the devil out of the laws of the Spirit of Life.  There's protections built into the New Covenant that have to remain in place until Satan goes into the Lake of Fire.  Otherwise, he'd retake the kingdoms of the world as he did in the Garden of Eden and all men would remain blinded until 1Corinthians 15:28.  As things are right now, the Kingdoms of the world are ours and the talents in the parable of Christ corresponds to the nations that we exercise lordship over under the guidance of the Lord of lords.

I have to partly disagree with you here. We do have to unlearn certain things, like unscriptural views of "hell". Now, I agree that a lot of the doctrines have somehow ended up being essentially correct, but for the wrong reasons as you've pointed out; but I've personally had to do a fair amount of "unlearning." I haven't had to rebuild from scratch, but I've felt that I at least needed to re-examine everything, if not start over. I mean, if such a basic and core thing as salvation is grossly misunderstood, what else have we been taught in error?
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Nathan

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 01:56:14 AM »
That has been my experience Doc, I've let go of 90% of all that I thought was sound doctrine . . .once you start down that slippery slope of freedom, all of the support beams holding up your theories begin to lose their footing . . .if the foundation is off, the house is off.  Ever see a house where only one wall was a foot shorter but the house was still sound?

If you have and if it is, it's because a crafty carpenter came along and compensated lumber for rock.  Over time, it still won't stand the storms of life.  For me, the walk of a humble man is one that holds on to the things of this world loosely.  No matter how many times God is repeated in my fundamental doctrine . .it's still based on what I know "down" here. 

Ever wonder just how many people are going to stand before the throne when the last knee has finally bowed and confessed . .and they'll say "Yup, it's exactly like I knew it would be!" 

This has been rolling around in me for a bit lately . . .(you fill in the blank once you've read the sentence). . .it takes a pretty ______ person who can stand toe to toe with another and say "you are wrong, I am right" when pertaining to the kingdom of God.

Are we so wise that we are able to declare right and wrong in another?  The looser I hang on to what I think to be right, easier it'll be to let go when God tells me I'm not.

Offline Doc

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 02:04:27 AM »
That has been my experience Doc, I've let go of 90% of all that I thought was sound doctrine . . .once you start down that slippery slope of freedom, all of the support beams holding up your theories begin to lose their footing . . .if the foundation is off, the house is off.  Ever see a house where only one wall was a foot shorter but the house was still sound?

If you have and if it is, it's because a crafty carpenter came along and compensated lumber for rock.  Over time, it still won't stand the storms of life.  For me, the walk of a humble man is one that holds on to the things of this world loosely.  No matter how many times God is repeated in my fundamental doctrine . .it's still based on what I know "down" here. 

Ever wonder just how many people are going to stand before the throne when the last knee has finally bowed and confessed . .and they'll say "Yup, it's exactly like I knew it would be!" 

This has been rolling around in me for a bit lately . . .(you fill in the blank once you've read the sentence). . .it takes a pretty ______ person who can stand toe to toe with another and say "you are wrong, I am right" when pertaining to the kingdom of God.

Are we so wise that we are able to declare right and wrong in another?  The looser I hang on to what I think to be right, easier it'll be to let go when God tells me I'm not.

I have an older friend who is fond of saying (tongue-in-cheek) that he thinks the 30 minutes of silence in heaven is going to be for everyone to get their theology sorted out.   :laughing7:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Nathan

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 03:06:11 AM »
Yeah . .heh, I heard that one to.  Got into a bit of an argument on this forum connecting that one (half hour of silence) with Josephus writing about 70 A.D.

Offline legoman

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 06:31:44 AM »
It's not so much that Christians have anything to unlearn.  I haven't found very many Christians that have transitioned into UR that have had to rebuild from scratch, although that's a paranoia that can run deep for many Christians coming into the reality of UR.  It's simply as I said with knowing things in your knower and basing things off of the wrong verses 'cause of bad translations.  When things are properly translated, then most of the doctrines hold up, but not on the previously held proof texts.  There's still over 150 verses that talk about the tenth in virtually any translation, since that's a favorite one of UR folks to pick on, but you've got to restudy "ten" in the Scriptures rather than singling out the word "tithe" and being more of a literalist on it than you ever intend to be on any other doctrine.  If the tenth has been done away with, then Christ was seated in vain 'cause UR, the validation of every other Spiritual gift and of the New Birth and a billion other precepts of the Gospel can be asserted and maintained with Him simply having ascended into heaven, but His seating implies Kingship in every area of life that He extends to every believer provided they use the right access codes that are in place to keep the devil out of the laws of the Spirit of Life.  There's protections built into the New Covenant that have to remain in place until Satan goes into the Lake of Fire.  Otherwise, he'd retake the kingdoms of the world as he did in the Garden of Eden and all men would remain blinded until 1Corinthians 15:28.  As things are right now, the Kingdoms of the world are ours and the talents in the parable of Christ corresponds to the nations that we exercise lordship over under the guidance of the Lord of lords.

I have to partly disagree with you here. We do have to unlearn certain things, like unscriptural views of "hell". Now, I agree that a lot of the doctrines have somehow ended up being essentially correct, but for the wrong reasons as you've pointed out; but I've personally had to do a fair amount of "unlearning." I haven't had to rebuild from scratch, but I've felt that I at least needed to re-examine everything, if not start over. I mean, if such a basic and core thing as salvation is grossly misunderstood, what else have we been taught in error?

For me there was definitely a lot of unlearning.

It took me forever (ok a few months) to realize that we don't go to heaven immediately upon death.  This threw off my whole concept of when believers and unbelievers would be judged/resurrected etc.

Also it seems in most cases of people learning about UR, there are some basic questions that come up immediately.  I know I even asked them myself:

1.  If God is going to save everyone, what was the point of sending Jesus?
2.  If God is going to save everyone, why don't I just go around and sin as much as I want?

Honestly it took me much thinking and soul searching for several weeks until I had reasonable answers for these questions.

And part of it was because of previous indoctrination and teaching.  It is so ingrained in us that God sent Jesus so we wouldn't go to hell, and that we don't sin so we don't go to hell.  Take away hell, and now it (incorrectly) seems there is no reason for Jesus and no reason to not sin.  But of course there is a reason  :Sparkletooth: (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out those reasons)

Legoman

Offline legoman

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 06:01:23 PM »
Have you guys and gals heard this one:  the thief on the cross went to paradise immediately on the same day he died - or did he?

Here is the verse:
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

In fact there are no commas at all in the original text, so the comma is just a best guess by the translators.  This blew me away when I learned it.

Legoman

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 06:23:54 PM »
Have you guys and gals heard this one:  the thief on the cross went to paradise immediately on the same day he died - or did he?

Here is the verse:
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

In fact there are no commas at all in the original text, so the comma is just a best guess by the translators.  This blew me away when I learned it.

Legoman


Yeah,  best guess probably isn't "quite" true since within the doctrine of going immediately to heaven or hell when we die, it would be a proper placement.  You seem to find translations that gear more towards UR the comma is in a different spot.


Offline legoman

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 08:44:37 PM »
Yes true.  "best guess" wasn't the right term perhaps.  But it does appear the comma was placed to impose a particular understanding of a doctrine.

This example shows how tough it is to translate correctly.  If moving a comma by one word completely changes a doctrine, imagine the damage done by changing a whole word or series of words.  And of course we don't need to imagine because we can see what has been done with aion/aionios and hades/sheol/gehenna.

Cheers,
Legoman

Offline rosered

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2009, 09:13:45 PM »
 
 wow , i am  being wowed today lol
  thanks so much for sharing this  Legoman   all of you  :thumbsup:,
      very interesting  indeed
 lots to consider  :HeartThrob:

Offline sven

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2009, 09:28:14 PM »
the aionos times in the verse before had an end!

God is eternal, which means also eternal back in the past, the aionos life has a beginning, God not - this is something that came in my mind.

the ages of the ages have a beginning, "they will reign for the ages of the ages", they don't reign yet, and again - God has no beginning, the ages of the ages will have one.

Offline legoman

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 10:11:52 PM »

 wow , i am  being wowed today lol
  thanks so much for sharing this  Legoman   all of you  :thumbsup:,
      very interesting  indeed
 lots to consider  :HeartThrob:

Your welcome rosered!  :Sparkletooth:

I can't claim credit for finding it, its just something I read on another site.  And it wowed me too when I first saw it.  There's so much to be learned, so many layers to go through.

Enjoy,
Legoman

Offline rosered

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2009, 01:07:19 PM »
 
  Hi sis , called  the 3rd heaven right  same as paradise ?

  The biggest  stumbling block for me is


  THE" greek tenses""  , it is more  frustrating   than anything  :sigh:

 

 I am a" present  tense "    thinker  because ,
 
  I take it as though it is the Spirit speaking directly to me personally ,
 

 
like having  these invisible  to the "naked eye"   ears to Hear 
 
 
 some how  :laughing7:
 
 :HeartThrob:
 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 01:14:00 PM by rosered »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 07:30:06 PM »

  Hi sis , called  the 3rd heaven right  same as paradise ?

  The biggest  stumbling block for me is


  THE" greek tenses""  , it is more  frustrating   than anything  :sigh:

 

 I am a" present  tense "    thinker  because ,
 
  I take it as though it is the Spirit speaking directly to me personally ,
 

 
like having  these invisible  to the "naked eye"   ears to Hear 
 
 
 some how  :laughing7:
 
 :HeartThrob:
 

Well yeah but Jesus saying "To day" is by the Holy Spirit as shown by Paul in relation to "a certain day" not a 24 hour thing but naming that which He remains the same in "Yesterday, To day, and For ever" the declaration on the cross pertained to that. Despite where the comma is placed Paul showed being caught up to "third heaven" = paradise did not require the death of the physical body. So "To day" in the physical sense of 24 hour time shouldnt even be a consideration.  Paul said "In the body or out of the body he could not tell" but the physical death of a mans body had nothing to do with being caught up to paradise.

I mean you can do saumersaults around the comma but honestly...  :grin:  Im not understanding why do that rather then recconcile the fact someone was (caught up) in the "To day" Paul says the Holy Spirit calls "To day".

I'd think it would simplify the thing  :grin:



Could it be that Jesus possibly meant that at that moment he was given the truth?




Offline rosered

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2009, 07:35:55 PM »
 

   Hi  Kim and Paul
 
  Yes  , it seems the  instant this word "Today"

  is quickened in your  mortal   body by the Holy Spirit   ,
 
 
 the coma  seems  such trivial   little thing    hee hee    :laughing7:
 
 
  like  swating at gnats and swallowing camels   :thumbsup:
 
               :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 07:39:21 PM by rosered »

Offline Taffy

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2009, 07:39:21 PM »

  Hi sis , called  the 3rd heaven right  same as paradise ?

  The biggest  stumbling block for me is


  THE" greek tenses""  , it is more  frustrating   than anything  :sigh:

 

 I am a" present  tense "    thinker  because ,
 
  I take it as though it is the Spirit speaking directly to me personally ,
 

 
like having  these invisible  to the "naked eye"   ears to Hear 
 
 
 some how  :laughing7:
 
 :HeartThrob:
 

Well yeah but Jesus saying "To day" is by the Holy Spirit as shown by Paul in relation to "a certain day" not a 24 hour thing but naming that which He remains the same in "Yesterday, To day, and For ever" the declaration on the cross pertained to that. Despite where the comma is placed Paul showed being caught up to "third heaven" = paradise did not require the death of the physical body. So "To day" in the physical sense of 24 hour time shouldnt even be a consideration.  Paul said "In the body or out of the body he could not tell" but the physical death of a mans body had nothing to do with being caught up to paradise.

I mean you can do saumersaults around the comma but honestly...  :grin:  Im not understanding why do that rather then recconcile the fact someone was (caught up) in the "To day" Paul says the Holy Spirit calls "To day".

I'd think it would simplify the thing  :grin:



Could it be that Jesus possibly meant that at that moment he was given the truth?




More Like he was SHOWN who IS TRUTH for mine Paul :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2009, 08:13:43 PM »
Quote
But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."


Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Offline rosered

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2009, 08:17:01 PM »
Quote
I cant always tell where some folks are coming from.

  Hee hee or where they are going
  sorta like the wind  huh sis?
  I am a bit windy myself hee hee ,
 
  especially when we  talk on the phone    :laughing7:

                          :HeartThrob:
 
 

Offline Taffy

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2009, 08:20:06 PM »
Quote
I cant always tell where some folks are coming from.

  Hee hee or where they are going
  sorta like the wind  huh sis?
  I am a bit windy myself hee hee ,
 
  especially when we  talk on the phone    :laughing7:

                          :HeartThrob:
 
 


Love Knows ,No Bills, ................specially Phone ones. :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Pierac

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2009, 01:37:46 AM »
Quote
But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."


Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]

This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true.  Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.



Offline Taffy

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Re: The 2nd biggest stumbling block (the aionios God)
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2009, 01:48:15 AM »
Quote
But what if the comma was in the wrong place?:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."


Because Jesus would not and did not talk like that.

I tell you the truth today (but yesterday I lied?)

I tell you the truth today (but tomorrow all bets are off?)


Jesus would say Truly, Truly  or Look  or Verily (meaning you can trust it)


Therefore, the translators got it right--Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/i]

This would make Jesus out to be a liar if this were true.  Jesus knew and taught he must die and be raised on the 3rd day. Jesus was dead and in hades, not in Paradise the day he spoke these words to the 'thief' on the cross.




Paul :icon_flower:
The concept of who TO DAY is , be the focal point

TO DAY is Christ, Likened to a DAY who is a THOUSAND yrs, oppossed to a Literal DAY.  :icon_flower:

 :2c: :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.