Testimony of Mickey Robinson, witness, or no?

[WhiteWings]

In public Jesus always spoke in parables. In private he did not speak in parables to His disciples. Is an NDE public or private?
The visions mentioned/explained in the Bible where parables too. AFAIK they never showed actual things.

Is there any reason to believe NDEs aren't just parables? Assuming they aren't fake and/or are coming from evil spirits instead of from Jesus?

[Pierac]

How do you know it was Samuel?

Then said Samuel,

Then Samuel said according to whom?

1Sa 28:11  The woman replied, "Who is it that I should bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up for me Samuel."
1Sa 28:12  When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly. The woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
1Sa 28:13  The king said to her, "Don't be afraid! What have you seen?" The woman replied to Saul, "I have seen one like a god coming up from the ground!"
1Sa 28:14  He said to her, "What about his appearance?" She said, "An old man is coming up! He is wrapped in a robe!" Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down.

You will note several issues with these verses. First she sees "one like a God coming up from the ground. This is a description different from a human like being? You will also note, Saul can not see this being as it's/His description has to be explained to Saul. Saul then believes it is Samuel based upon the description given to him. (We must also note Saul is in a distressed state of mind at this time too.)

Scripture must interpret scripture and I just find it hard to believe this one verse can out way the others listed below. Given the issues I have discussed

Gen 3:19  By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Psa 13:3  Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

Psa 22:15  my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.

Psa 88:10  Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah   No.

Psa 115:17  The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Psa 146:4  When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 7:21  Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be."

Ecc 3:18-19  I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19  For the fate of the sons of men and the fate
of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (Spirit rûaḥ) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.  Notice it is God's Spirit that returns back to him. It is not our spirit, The word is rûaḥ: A feminine noun meaning spirit, wind, breath.

Ecc 9:4  But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Isa 26:19  Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Dan 12:2  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice   Who are in the tombs if we are with Jesus at death?

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.  That means no one!

Joh 11:11  After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."  … 14  So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

Joh 11:24  Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."  Notice it does not say on his last day!

Act 7:60  And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.  Like Lazarus, dead!

Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Act 2:29  "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.  And he is still there!

1Co 15:26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death. The last not first!

1Th 4:13  But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.  Asleep like Lazarus, dead

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise
first.  How can the dead rise if they are in heaven? Note it reads dead, not body!

Now could it have been Samuel? Maybe? Could God have raised Him up for this purpose? Maybe, 

One thing is clear, The witch was totally suprised by what happened, giving the impression she has never seen anything like this before.

Then the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly. The woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

It's clear she knew some supernatural forces were at work that were beyond her control. She only recognized Saul when she saw a god like being coming up from the ground! Clearly from her scream this was not a common event for her.

Instresting verse to study.

Paul






 

[reFORMer]

One of the foremost men of God in recorded human history -- whose word never fell to the ground, never failed, was never rendered inoperative or obsolete -- cannot have turned against his God, his Savior and Lord beyond the grave.  It is inconceivable that Samuel would defy his Father, his Master, his Beloved at the summons of a witch!  And Saul, who was rejected for repeatedly rejecting the Word of IEUE,  suffered the consequences for his disobedience.  For fraternizing with demons, he was entangled in the curse of death they pronounced against him.

The Word of IEUE which Saul in his end defied:

9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter (who uses spell inducing potions, drugs), or a witch,
11 Or a charmer (a hypnotist), or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer (a medium who contacts the dead).
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

--- Deuteronomy 18:9-14, AV

[WhiteWings]

I'm no scribe as all are aware by now...

Many of your verses speak about asleep, not worshipping etc.
Then I ask myself why?
a] Because its totally 100% impossible to do otherwise?
b] Or is it just that they can't without help. When asleep you have no interaction until you wake up.

Then Samuel said according to whom?

I guess your point is that the witch can be lying or is deceived herself?
Could be. But somehow the verse is not their to claim that it's impossible to talk with the dead.
Indeed it could be a demon is deceiving her and any other medium.
But then I would hav expect that something goes terribly wrong. As a warning.

Then the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly. The woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

It's clear she knew some supernatural forces were at work that were beyond her control. She only recognized Saul when she saw a god like being coming up from the ground! Clearly from her scream this was not a common event for her.

I understand your conclusion but mine is different

1Sa 28:13  The king said to her, "Don't be afraid! What have you seen?" The woman replied to Saul, "I have seen one like a god coming up from the ground!"
1Sa 28:14  He said to her, "What about his appearance?" She said, "An old man is coming up! He is wrapped in a robe!" Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down.

"a god"
The real/only God is with a capital G
And He's not "a" but "our" or just "God"
To me it just is a that the display was great. Looked powerful. Mighty. Just like a great king.
The witch was scarred because she has awaken a person with a very strong link to God.

Just my
Basicly I see no use of this very and the command to forbit talking to the dead if it isn't possible at all.
 

[WhiteWings]

Interesting link: http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0928.htm

[Doc]

I'm currently a bit on the fence about NDE's, but I think there are reasons to believe many of them are genuine.
Genuine what, is a different matter. One of the interesting characteristics of the majority of NDE's is that nearly all of the accounts I've read have met with some spiritual figure that they identify as God or Jesus. Occasionally, it is identified Buddha or some other religious figure. Most of the accounts also cause these people to return with a belief (they were told or shown) that "hell" is not endless, but for a time only. Most who go to "hell" are rescued from it when they call on God or Jesus, even the athiests. Most of them also come back with a message surrounding the idea that Love is the most important thing. Which is what Jesus said...

I dunno. It seems like most of the verified accounts (where they were clinically dead for hours or days) are consistent enough with each other to establish general patterns without being so similar that they're simply copycatting each other. A good site to check out to read numerous NDE's and compare and contrast compiled findings from the accounts is www.near-death.com if you'd like to do some research on your own.
 
I found the site very helpful, and many of the accounts deeply touched me; impressing upon me in a fresh way how great the love of God is.

[firstborn888]

I found the site very helpful, and many of the accounts deeply touched me; impressing upon me in a fresh way how great the love of God is.

People are generally transformed by NDEs. Of course an atheist will answer "Sure they're transformed. Being brain-dead for awhile will do that to a person" 

How to explain it almost always being a positive change??? Hmmmm...

[WhiteWings]

You call that positive if people start to believe because of such an experience?
Isn't a relation with God supposed to be based on love and understanding instead of scare tactics?

[DeeDee]

I'm currently a bit on the fence about NDE's, but I think there are reasons to believe many of them are genuine.
Genuine what, is a different matter. One of the interesting characteristics of the majority of NDE's is that nearly all of the accounts I've read have met with some spiritual figure that they identify as God or Jesus. Occasionally, it is identified Buddha or some other religious figure. Most of the accounts also cause these people to return with a belief (they were told or shown) that "hell" is not endless, but for a time only. Most who go to "hell" are rescued from it when they call on God or Jesus, even the athiests. Most of them also come back with a message surrounding the idea that Love is the most important thing. Which is what Jesus said...

I dunno. It seems like most of the verified accounts (where they were clinically dead for hours or days) are consistent enough with each other to establish general patterns without being so similar that they're simply copycatting each other. A good site to check out to read numerous NDE's and compare and contrast compiled findings from the accounts is www.near-death.com if you'd like to do some research on your own.
 
I found the site very helpful, and many of the accounts deeply touched me; impressing upon me in a fresh way how great the love of God is.

Have you heard about the Nigerian minister who died and also had an NDE of hell? This man was already in the mortuary when he woke up. His name is Daniel Ekechukwu. Do an internet search on him and his NDE. This one and the one that Mickey Robinson had are the only 2 that really shake me a bit. Go and read about it and you let me know what you think.

[sven]

about if the dead are living, there is abook out of a Seventh Day Adventist, Walter J. Veith, "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error", i wanna buy this book in german, i dont know if its good, but i read excerpts from it, i think he writes about the stuff with Samuel, he believes in Annihalitionism, but they reject the idea of hell and that the dead live yet in any form very biblically and trustworthy in my view so its also interesting for universalists.

why do so many believe here that NDEs are thrustworthy?

[Andromeda_Organa]

about if the dead are living, there is abook out of a Seventh Day Adventist, Walter J. Veith, "Truth Matters - Escaping the Labyrinth of Error", i wanna buy this book in german, i dont know if its good, but i read excerpts from it, i think he writes about the stuff with Samuel, he believes in Annihalitionism, but they reject the idea of hell and that the dead live yet in any form very biblically and trustworthy in my view so its also interesting for universalists.

why do so many believe here that NDEs are thrustworthy?

My father had an NDE where he heard Jesus speak to him.

[firstborn888]

You call that positive if people start to believe because of such an experience?
Isn't a relation with God supposed to be based on love and understanding instead of scare tactics?

I was referring to NDEs in general - the most common ones, where people see the light at the end of the tunnel and come back with a sense of peace and tranquility and a new outlook. This is the overwhelming majority of NDE cases. 

[DeeDee]

Have you heard about the Nigerian minister who died and also had an NDE of hell? This man was already in the mortuary when he woke up. His name is Daniel Ekechukwu. Do an internet search on him and his NDE. This one and the one that Mickey Robinson had are the only 2 that really shake me a bit. Go and read about it and you let me know what you think.

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially. Only logical explanation is that NDE's are real, BUT not necessarily in the sense that the NDEr is perceiving them. They could be anything in fact since "modern science" can't figure it out. Something is definately happening to these people, only God knows what it is tho.

[firstborn888]

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially.

I have heard about this case before. Problem is, he is a born again pastor who was praying for forgiveness from God on his way to the hospital but died (the angel told him) without forgiving his wife so his sins were not forgiven and so he would have to go to hell for them because his record was blemished with this unforgiveness.

As Daniel began to panic the angel says "but" ....... (pregnant pause) ..... "the rich man's prayer in Luke 16 will now be answered"! (Talk about the right place at the right time! How lucky can this guy Daniel be???? )  and he finds out he would not have to go to hell after all (whew - that was CLOSE!) So, does this mean he went to the rich man's 5 brothers? No - it means he gets to go back home and get a second chance to avoid hell. And to warn us. So the rich man's prayer wasn't answered (the angel LIED!!!)

Big problem: According to this story (it actually spells this out) if you happen to die having not absolute forgiveness in your heart for everyone and shown perfect mercy for all whom you ever encountered in this life you will go to hell. You will not get forgiveness or mercy (ie: you must be perfect to be saved ).

This is such absolute B.S. it defies sanity....   

[DeeDee]

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially.

I have heard about this case before. Problem is, he is a born again pastor who was praying for forgiveness from God on his way to the hospital but died (the angel told him) without forgiving his wife so his sins were not forgiven and so he would have to go to hell for them because his record was blemished with this unforgiveness.

As Daniel began to panic the angel says "but" ....... (pregnant pause) ..... "the rich man's prayer in Luke 16 will now be answered"! (Talk about the right place at the right time! How lucky can this guy Daniel be???? )  and he finds out he would not have to go to hell after all (whew - that was CLOSE!) So, does this mean he went to the rich man's 5 brothers? No - it means he gets to go back home and get a second chance to avoid hell. And to warn us. So the rich man's prayer wasn't answered (the angel LIED!!!)

Big problem: According to this story (it actually spells this out) if you happen to die having not absolute forgiveness in your heart for everyone and shown perfect mercy for all whom you ever encountered in this life you will go to hell. You will not get forgiveness or mercy (ie: you must be perfect to be saved ).

This is such absolute B.S. it defies sanity....   

I have seen stories since about people doubting the truthfulness of this pastor. It seems the story about him being embalmed already, changes in interviews. The only reason these "testimonies" give me the creeps is because they are both by ministers, but I think I am at that point now that I just shrug off testimonies like this. All have their flaws (the testimonies). Why they do things like this tho is still a mystery to me.  What do they gain from it?

[firstborn888]

I have seen stories since about people doubting the truthfulness of this pastor. It seems the story about him being embalmed already, changes in interviews. The only reason these "testimonies" give me the creeps is because they are both by ministers, but I think I am at that point now that I just shrug off testimonies like this. All have their flaws (the testimonies). Why they do things like this tho is still a mystery to me.  What do they gain from it?

They are fed this stuff their whole lives. Many times pastors have VERY few converts and it tears at them (their own failures).

I heard ANOTHER account of an NDE (inspired from this one?) where a guy claims most of the people in hell are pastors and christians 
Because they 'knew better' and still didn't give God their all.

Do you see the MAJOR POINTS which show this is all false? And we have to be perfect to get forgiven? That doesn't make any sense.
Why did they get a second chance? Why doesn't everybody? Surely if this were true (fire of hell) everyone would get the same chance to see for themselves and re-consider!

[Andromeda_Organa]

One of the reasons I don't believe Bill's NDE is b/c he talked about someone who had died in the Holocaust going to Hell. I don't believe ppl who died in the Holocaust went to Hell

[DeeDee]

One of the reasons I don't believe Bill's NDE is b/c he talked about someone who had died in the Holocaust going to Hell. I don't believe ppl who died in the Holocaust went to Hell

Hun I don't believe anyone goes to hell. Well not the classic hell in anyhow. I know we get judged and punished accordingly but I really dont' believe its an eternal fire lake that we get thrown into.

[Doc]

Above I am quoting myself because I think checking out Daniel Ekechukwu will strengthen my point. Someone asked why some believe in NDE's, well its simple. When you see a strong testimony like the above two have given, it does make you wonder why people would lie about something so serious. Especially when they don't gain anything financially.

I have heard about this case before. Problem is, he is a born again pastor who was praying for forgiveness from God on his way to the hospital but died (the angel told him) without forgiving his wife so his sins were not forgiven and so he would have to go to hell for them because his record was blemished with this unforgiveness.

As Daniel began to panic the angel says "but" ....... (pregnant pause) ..... "the rich man's prayer in Luke 16 will now be answered"! (Talk about the right place at the right time! How lucky can this guy Daniel be???? )  and he finds out he would not have to go to hell after all (whew - that was CLOSE!) So, does this mean he went to the rich man's 5 brothers? No - it means he gets to go back home and get a second chance to avoid hell. And to warn us. So the rich man's prayer wasn't answered (the angel LIED!!!)

Big problem: According to this story (it actually spells this out) if you happen to die having not absolute forgiveness in your heart for everyone and shown perfect mercy for all whom you ever encountered in this life you will go to hell. You will not get forgiveness or mercy (ie: you must be perfect to be saved ).

This is such absolute B.S. it defies sanity....   

I have seen stories since about people doubting the truthfulness of this pastor. It seems the story about him being embalmed already, changes in interviews. The only reason these "testimonies" give me the creeps is because they are both by ministers, but I think I am at that point now that I just shrug off testimonies like this. All have their flaws (the testimonies). Why they do things like this tho is still a mystery to me.  What do they gain from it?

Dee Dee; I've found in looking over many NDE accounts that the "outliers" (ones that are significantly different from most) like this pastor's are the ones that are most suspect. It's also interesting to note that it's typically the people who had a strong belief along the lines of their experience prior to their experience that end up with these kinds of stories. One of the interesting features of NDE's is that people tend to experience what they expect to experience, if they have an expectation to begin with.

[At peace]

Hey Pierac,

Great posts on what happens to the soul after death. I learned quite alot.

I like the fact that you supported your argument, with a tremendous amount of scripture.

I will hold on to those posts.

At peace

Edit: looking through the bible I found this verse:

Luke 23:43 " Jesus answered him,  I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Quite perplexing, any thoughts on this, thx.

[rebeccat]

NDEs are a secret guilty pleasure of mine.  I second Doc's recommendation to visit the near death experience website.  My own opinion is that NDE accounts should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you read them with an open heart, they can be very life affirming and get you to look and think about things in new, often better ways. 

That said, there are a couple of characteristics about NDEs which make accounts like this one less enlightening than they may appear to be.  First off, there is a very common notion among those who have had NDEs that NDEs are very, very subjective.  You carry your own assumptions with you.  I remember reading the NDE of a pastor who said that he saw the line to get into heaven (which he was excluded from) and he just automatically assumed that the people going into heaven were all born-again believers.  Likewise, a person who thinks hell is forever will hold onto that belief and even see it as affirmed even if there is nothing which actually affirms their assumptions.  So, this guy may be speaking as honestly as he is able for all we know.  However, it is his understanding of the truth that he is recounting; which may or may not be an accurate representation of the events.

The other characteristic of NDEs is lapses in which memories one is allowed to take back with them.  NDEs which last for any length of time almost always include some account of being told things or remembering things while they were "there" which they were not allowed to retain knowledge of.  For some reason, this forgetting (of who we are, why we are here, etc) seems to be a fundamental component of human existence.  So, what this guy remembers is almost certainly incomplete. 

Anyhow, like I said, I would encourage others to go to a NDE website and poke around.  It is a bit challenging, but overall I've found many of the accounts to be helpful thought exercises if nothing else.

[rebeccat]

Oh, and for those who are interested in the biblical account of what happens when we die, NT Wright just wrote a book on the topic.  I think it's called "Rethinking heaven".  He makes many of the same points that some here have about disembodied spirits and duality. 

[Doc]

I really like NT Wright. He's pretty sharp on most things, though sadly not a universalist (though he's been accused of being one from time to time )

[Cat]

I found this very interesting article:

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0928.htm

I used to wonder about the 'medium of Endor' account, because the claim that Samuel must really be an evil spirit pretending to be the 'dead' Samuel, didn't seem to quite gel.  The article makes some points that Whitewings, I think, has made.  It does seem to show that the real Samuel was 'woken up' or 'brought up' from wherever he was.