Sorry to leave with so much confusion

[Sarah]

I can respect your reason for leaving as stated above, although I think that many here believe as you;  I don't know.  Yes, I too hate labels and universalism carries many connotations.  Anyway, I can understand dropping the label, but dropping the belief seems unneccesary, unless you truly don't believe it.  Then that is between you and God.

[CHB]

See, the thing is, there are so many members at this forum whom don't hold these truths that it is very difficult (for me) to speak about basic christian things (such as the fear of God, of which my entire thread ended up getting completely deleted) without the thread becoming very unfriendly by harsh verbal fighting because there are members here who don't hold the same belief in the Word of God and fear of God and such that I do (namely, that the Word of God, Old and New Testament, is God's Word and infallible), and besides this thing, this lack of reverence for the Word of God and Moses and the prophets is allowed here, by those whom have the power to stop it or even encouraged by some of the same. I have heard more arguments on why the bible is flawed or prophet bashing and such here at this forum, than the rest of the times I heard these things in my entire life

artic,

If you are still reading post, I just want you to know I believe the whole Bible is the word of God and I believe the whole Bible is for our admonition and learning.  (1 Cor. 10:11) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples; {or types} and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come".

If you only like Red Delicious apples and you find a few Macontosh in the bucket do you throw them all away?  You will find there are many different beliefs in ALL of the many denominations.

CHB

[studier]

I agree that personalities have made it difficult to discuss things, usually making it personal or refusing to discuss their objections or disagreements with you or others. This has been a constant problem within Tentmaker, but that is not always. There are many forums you can join, or even email or pm people. You are on my facebook right? If not, just type  and we can always discuss things in my group called, "Agape, Jesus saved all not some." It is for those who have 'traditional' Christian doctrines and can still see Salvation to all within them. I myself am one of those 'traditional' Christians, because I don't find anything wrong with 99% of the doctrines in the church, only their view of the end.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi A-M...

Please accept my "pre-apology" for this long answer to you... 

Ok, just had to do one more post

That's what they all say... 

I notice your comments below were NOT a reply to me... nor do they even contain ONE verse of Scripture to note  to us WHY you now have gained the agenda to demean and disrespect the teaching of UR... 

As far as I am concerned your words in the OP, serve to DIS the Gospel which is ALL-INCLUSIVE, and serve to exalt yourself, by doing so...

Calm down there willieH, its not you I renounced, nor other christians whom believe in universalism, nor any person for that matter. Its the title, that, up till now, one may have been able to label me with, or to be honest I was beginning to label myself with.

You blatantly "DIS" with your "WHOOP-DE-DO'S" and such, and expect believers in UR to just kick back and absorb these "slaps" in the face?  Some here shall not respond to this (which is their right and decision, which I do not criticize), but I, ...am not one of them... 

My answering post to you was Scriptural, yours was not... which of us is dealing with GOD and SPIRITUAL things A-M? 

You name UNIVERSALISM as a "DOGMA"... and in your post, bottled it all up as one BLANKET belief, as if ALL Universalists believe ALL doctrines alike... PLEASE!

There is no "Universalist" denomination which has "this belief & that belief" alongside the belief of Universal Reconciliation! 

There are many here at TM which embrace the TRUTH that GOD shall SAVE ALL... and RECONCILE ALL THINGS unto Himself... eliminating DEATH and its state of OPPOSITION to LIFE...

But as most here on TM believe this... we definitely differ on various peripheral observations of Scripture...  This is no "biggie" as OUR OBSERVATIONS do not SAVE us... CHRIST is our common Savior... and HIS WORK, both at the Cross and IN US as Individuals, that is our sole, SAVING GRACE...

That what I'm renouncing. The reason I don't want to post at tentmaker anymore is, because besides not wanting to debate endlessly about whom is going to heaven, there are many members here at the tentmaker forum whom don't believe in the validity of the Word of God, the testimony of Moses and the prophets and things such as these, and I have been led not to engage in such debates and arguments over these things.

As I just said A-M... believing in the Bible is NOT what SAVES us... CHRIST is our SAVIOR, and it is HIS WORK to do so in EACH, ...LOST... LIFE...  (The SHEPHERD finds the LOST SHEEP... not the other way around.)

If you do not wish to post or debate, the solution is pretty simple, ...DON'T!  Categorizing everyone into a little box that you call "Universalism", ...though it remains your "right" to do so, is quite short of understanding...

In your post you noted Universalism as a DOGMA... do you know the defintion of this word A-M?  It has VARIOUS aspects and definitions... some of which are quite condescending...

Or, is it like your observation of "theology" (no offense), ..."jumping" from one thing you dont understand, ...to another?  Then erecting the excuse that you don't wish to "endlessly debate"... Please!  Debating is not a requirement.  Many just observe... and, as the "debaters" debate... on their own, they pray, study and consider the observations offered on the subject discussed. 

dogma 

Main Entry: dog·ma 
Pronunciation: \ˈdȯg-mə, ˈdäg-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta  \-mə-tə\
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem — more at decent
Date: 1638
1 a: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b: a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c: a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

2: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Do you SEE the variations which this word proposes?  It encompasses and Infers, CHURCH, and INADAQUATE GROUNDS... as well as being an ESTABLISHED OPINION...

See, the thing is, there are so many members at this forum whom don't hold these truths that it is very difficult (for me) to speak about basic christian things (such as the fear of God, of which my entire thread ended up getting completely deleted) without the thread becoming very unfriendly by harsh verbal fighting because there are members here who don't hold the same belief in the Word of God and fear of God and such that I do (namely, that the Word of God, Old and New Testament, is God's Word and infallible)

The problem here A-M, is that ...it is TRUE, that the WORD of GOD ...IS... INFALLIBLE... unfortunately, we do not have that ORIGINAL WORD available to us... What we have is various translations of COPIES of it... those COPIES and TRANSLATIONS of THEM, being done by FALLIBLE MEN... 

This does not mean it has rendered GOD unable to convey to us His TRUTH... what it means is that we must FERVENTLY and RELENTLESSLY dig to find it.  MOST are unwilling to devote themselves to it... and so they LAZILY adopt OPINIONS of TBN preachers or local preachers, and HOLD those OPINIONS as TRUTH... which comes from the "infallible" WORD of GOD...

and besides this thing, this lack of reverence for the Word of God and Moses and the prophets is allowed here, by those whom have the power to stop it or even encouraged by some of the same. I have heard more arguments on why the bible is flawed or prophet bashing and such here at this forum, than the rest of the times I heard these things in my entire life combined (and I've only been at this forum for like a year), not that I wouldn't hear these things in other places if I debated with unbelievers, but I don't go into a group of unbelievers and start talking about the fear of God either.

FEAR of GOD:

To begin with, FEAR of GOD, is the RESPECT which is ALWAYS  found in LOVE.

It is NOT the FEAR which is found in "TERROR"... which is INTIMIDATION... Bullies INTIMIDATE... GOD is NOT a "bully"...

What REASON would GOD have to INTIMIDATE created beings, A-M?  Nothing can even continue to exist without His power enabling that existence! 

It is in the CARNAL mind that Intimidational FEAR is produced... that by relating to PHYSICAL threatening...

In the SPIRIT, we find REASON... and REASON does not need INTIMIDATION to conclude, it arrives REASONABLY at a conclusion... which is found to be REASONABLE...

To propose an ALMIGHTY GOD which resorts to INTIMIDATION is UNREASONABLE... for if GOD purposes REASON in His WILL, than REASON shall be found in His WILL's conclusion. 

In the end... those who enter into REASON, do not invoke FEAR in the interaction in an attempt to arrive at a REASONABLE conclusion, for instance: 

At PEACE talks between warring nations, THREATS (proposals of fear) do not promote a conclusion of PEACE...

GOD instructs us to REASON with Him: (Is 1:18)... therefore the word FEAR concerning Him, has to contain REASON and PEACE, not INTIMIDATION.

He is SPECIFICALLY noted the GOD OF PEACE:  (1 Thes 5:23 / Rom 15:33 / Heb 13:20 / Phil 4:9) ...as is HIS MESSAGE, the GOSPEL: (Eph 6:15 / Col 1:20 / Col 3:15 / Rom 10:15 / 1 Cor 14:33 / Gal 1:3)

So let's get it out in the open A-M... are you "AFRAID" (fearful) of GOD?  If you ARE, ...you are not complete IN LOVE, according to the WORD: (1 John 4:18)  There is NO FEAR in LOVE, for FEAR has TORMENT.

If you are "FEARFUL", you are found on THIS LIST: (Rev 21:8)

THE BIBLE:

The term "BIBLE" (used by you above) is quite a GENERALIZATION... for the various "Translations" of IT, are even found contradictory to each other in many places... So WHAT are we to DO?

WELL... if one has FAITH in GOD's ability to LEAD... and one is DEVOTED to discover TRUTH, then one shall FIND IT as promised:  (Jer 29:10-14)

FYI... Gary Amirault has begun a renewed campaign which is geared toward intolerance of DISRESPECT of the Scripture... I believe this is GOOD... and it is basically, WHY the TM Board has gone through recent adjustments and deletions...

In the same way that I don't want to go into a group of unbelievers and start putting pearls in front of them to trample on, in that same way, with the great amount of members at this forum whom don't believe the the Holy Bible is the Word of God, I don't want to share my christian beliefs which are based upon that Word of God here at this forum where they will (have been, I'm not speculating here) pounced upon with no help from the moderators, mostly because there are some moderators at this forum whom don't think the Holy Bible is the infallible Word of God either, and that both parties (both the person whom believes the Holy Bible is the Word of God and those whom don't hold this belief) both have valid positions for their debate. For a person like me, with my beliefs, this forum just isn't the right place due to these things.

Go where GOD leads you A-M... No one is TYING you up to Tentmaker Forums, and forcing you to maintain membership, by further forcing you to DISCUSS... If you gotta GO... GO with GOD bud! 

But don't do it in the CLASSLESS way you chose in the OP of this discussion! 

It would have been much more like the CHRIST you claim to portray, to have said:  "Hey brothers and sisters, after a year of consideration and study, ...I have found that I do not BELIEVE in UR... and I pray you shall find this to be true as well in your continuing search for TRUTH... May God bless you guys as you continue to seek Him."

 :omg:  No... that is NOT what you did, AM!  You slammed the belief in UR, as best you could, ...then turned tail and ran out the door! 

I still think any belief system that applies a label to a person, other than the label of christian or member of the body of Christ (you get the idea), is a dogma, this is my opinion, and this makes the title of universalist a dogma in my book because it is labeling a member of Christ's body by the application of a specific, or unspecific belief that proactively and very effectively in many cases seperates members of the body of Christ over secondary doctrine (doctrines besides that of Christ on the cross).

What a crock Articmonster!  What is YOUR LABEL?  If it is different than [all-inclusive] UR... it is either [EXCLUSIVE] ...ET... or [EXCLUSIVE] ANNHILATION, ...is this not a "labeling" of yourself? 

Which of these is your current "fancy"?  Or have you erected a THIRD "exclusive" scenario? 

CHRIST Himself, stated that He came NOT to bring PEACE, but a SWORD, which when applied, would sever families, brothers, husbands & wives, etc...  And noted that if the one endeavoring to follow Him was not WILLING that this happen if necessary... then that one was NOT WORTHY to be His DISCIPLE!

It is my observation that you wish the arm to be the leg, and the eye to be the ear! Which is what Christianity endeavors to do in their "denominations", so there will be no separations of the members... everyone is an eye...  ?????

If everyone is the EYE... how shall the body HEAR? Or WALK? Or SPEAK?  Sorry A-M... the Body of CHRIST is DIVERSIFIED, and quite necessarily so.   The "eye" does NOT do what the "ear" does.  The only thing they hold in common is the desire to SERVE the one who DESERVEDLY is the HEAD of both!  Other than that, the "EYE" is not at all concerned with HEARING... or TASTING... whatever.

We ALL see thru the "glass" darkly... so no matter where you go, or what you believe, it will be INCOMPLETE.

And there will ALWAYS be opposition to those beliefs...

And, on top of that, the entire purpose of the belief of "universalism" has been taken from me, and exists no more, as I explained the best I could earlier.

Now all anybody can call me, is a Christian. Thats how I was led to walk right now, as a Christian or member of the body of Christ. With this in mind, I could still post here, but I have listed other reasons on why I don't want to stay at this particular apologetic forum.

Not TRUE!

Sorry A-M, it isn't that easy!  ...We are ALL "Christians"... and YOU have decided to "LABEL" believers here at TM, ...that "LABEL" being the belief in the doctrine of UR...

You have currently removed that belief from yourself... but still a different "LABEL" awaits you... be it ...ET, ...Annhilation, ...or as the athiests hold fast to, ...NOTHING...

Welcome to your "new" LABEL... whatever it might be...

(never really got to know you martin cisneros, I'll check out your website sometime, I have given my reasons of why I have been led to stay away from this forum and why I must leave)

Seeya later A-M... as I said... GO with GOD... IMO (in my observation) you are unable to see the forest for the trees...

peacE

...willieH 

[jabcat]

Many good points Willi, for myself as well as hopefully AM.

AM...I was one that felt supportive of your general stance(s) in the past, and witnessed some of what you described.     However, as Willi said, new parameters are now in place within which issues may be discussed, i.e., a respect for all of scripture.  We don't all have to agree with each other, many see things differently, and that's OK; as long as there's a true seeking after God's truths within scripture and a willingess to learn and to have God's Word revealed by the Spirit, then we're going to have varying levels of understandings but still be open to God's leading.  I agree, many problems occur when professed believers start throwing out scripture, picking and choosing what pieces of it fits their paradigm...then a huge part of the standard with which truth is measured is gone.  (Interestingly, I believe one of the definitions of canon is standard.)   Then folks can pretty much claim and say what they want, and so then how do you discuss it apart from "everyone's got an opinion?"  I agree the Holy Spirit leads, but IMO, the Holy Spirit will always lead in accord with the Word, never against...personally I question anyone's revelation if we can't go to the Word together and test it...IMO, it still needs to be accurately translated, properly divided, and Spirit revealed.  Gary Amirault has called that "reading the white"...the revelation...but it's still within the scripture, not against it.

So, if your belief in UR was perhaps damaged by past unscriptural approaches and attitudes, I hope you may at least stay open to the truth despite those experiences.  I also understand you possibly having been spiritually wounded.  But our God heals and comforts and He knows exactly what you need when you need it.

Just stay open to the Spirit's leading and don't close doors to God's truths based on past experiences.  We are all human, all fallible, all have been a bad witness to others at various times.  Regrettably but admittedly, I have often done so.  But as someone recently wrote to me, pay attention to the cross around my neck, not the turkey wearing it.

God's blessing, James.

[firstborn888]

Hi AM,
  If your still reading - just wanted to say hi bro. and I appreciate the things we have shared about in the past. God speed to you on this part of your journey.
   blessings,
 - Byron

[studier]

I take no offense and hold no one accountable for being hesitant or leaving the understanding of Universal Reconciliation. For some, they may have been hurt by the doctrine of eternal torment, or shunned throught he doctrine of annialiation; yet, I have nothing to defend in having someone disagree with my position. So, please do not take offense to those who are hard on you for your legitimet and honest observations, I hope the answer comes to you more clearly.

[rosered]

 Well AM has  a great point ,
 As all do thats written  the above  , seeing  the ET swing in one direction and UR  in the other , somewhere in the middle is that narrow path  that leads to Life 

 Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
 
 Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
 
 Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 

 –noun 1. Often, straits. (used with a singular verb) a narrow passage of water connecting two large bodies of water. 
  SEEING ET AND UR   here 
 
 
2. Often, straits. a position of difficulty, distress, or need: Ill and penniless, he was in sad straits indeed. 
3. Archaic. a narrow passage or area. 
4. an isthmus. 
–adjective Archaic. 5. narrow: Strait is the gate. 
6. affording little space; confined in area. 
7. strict, as in requirements or principles. 
 
 adj  strait
 
Difficult; stressful.
Having or marked by limited funds or resources.
Narrow.
Affording little space or room; confined.
Fitting tightly; constricted.
Archaic
Narrow.
Affording little space or room; confined.
Fitting tightly; constricted.
Archaic Strict, rigid, or righteous.

 i have  also  quited down a great deal , and somewhere in between the two   
 
 the TRUTH IS
 peace

[fullarmor2]

I still think any belief system that applies a label to a person, other than the label of Christian or member of the body of Christ (you get the idea), is a dogma

   I think the terms Universalist and Christian are synonymous to a great extent.  This is because Universalism has a very solid biblical foundation.