willieH: Hi Articmonster...
Frankly, this is possibly the most COWARDLY post I have read here in 3yrs...
You name Universalism a DOGMA... and FAIL to note WHY... All though you allude to them, you name NOTHING in the Scriptures to support this... then wave bye-bye...
I have a thing or two to say, for those observing your misplaced decision...
Sorry to leave with so much confusion as to why I think universalism is a dogma. I actually wrote a blog on my current view of universalism at mychurch.org, I'll paste it here. See, its the whole idea of the message of universalism, that I think is in contradiction with the Gospel, not that I don't think there are not some verses that support universalism.
SOME? Over 100? Throughout the Scritpures?
Its the purpose of the message I question, seeing the Word of God clearly show that those whom don't serve God shall incur harsh punishments (whether for ages and ages or forever and ever, what difference does it make, ages and ages sounds like thousands upon thousands of years!) I don't see the value in the message.
Please! You don't see the value of GOD's LOVE reaching out to even the VILEST sinner? But I'm sure find "VALUE" in the portion that REACHED YOU
There are consequences to SIN in THIS LIFE... How old are you? If you are young, you are likely to KNOW NOT of the degree of these consequences... Nor of the quantity in which they occur.
We are born into THIS LIFE, without consent, without choosing ANY of the parameters of the "deck" we're dealt... into a NATURE which gravitates NATURALLY to SIN... and you note those who fail to "make the right choices" to MORE SUFFERING after this?
So nice for YOU that you found the "way" eh?
It is easy to JUDGE others who are lost, once YOU have "found the way"...
Universalism's message is telling people whom despise God that they shall have peace with God just like Jeremiah 23:17, and the Word of God clearly says that those whom despise God will be dealt with with the uttmost harshness.
I notice in this little (forgive me) "tantrum"
...against the BIBLICALLY stated "SALVATION of ALL"... that you noted ...ZERO Scriptures to support that assertion...
Anyway, here is my post from mychurch.org
I used to consider myself a universalist. Though there is a convincing argument using certain
scriptures that universalism is true, there are many scriptures that must be ignored altogether in order to embrace universalism.
Noticeably, you did not name ANY of them...
I resigned myself to renounce this belief a month or two ago, as I now just believe it to be another dogma, a creed, if you will, and I don't need a creed or a statement of faith beyond merely stating that the Word of God is just that, the Word of God.
"Creeds" are written by MEN... The WORD of GOD, states the MISSION of CHRIST
and His WILL concerning that MISSION
:(2 Pet 3:9) The LORD is NOT SLACK concerning His promise, as SOME MEN [such as yourself maybe?] count slackness... but is LONGSUFFERING to US-ward ...NOT WILLING... that ANY should PERISH, but that ...ALL... should come to repentence...
How is this "coming" we are to do, ...be done? Well AM... let's let SCRIPTURE (not Articmonster) speak:(John 6:44) NO MAN ...CAN... come to Me except, the Father which SENT Me, DRAW him, and I ...WILL... raise him at the last day.Sent?
...why?(John 3:17) God SENT ...NOT... His son into the world to CONDEMN the world, but that the WORLD, ...THROUGH HIM, might be SAVED
...do... what He was SENT NOT
, to do - AM? According to YOU he will!
)Concerning WHO? (Luke 19:10) For the Son of man is COME to SEEK and to SAVE [who?] ...that which is ...LOST...
(How many do you seem to think, ...are LOST
there - AM? ...Just YOU maybe?)DRAW?
Draw WHO?(John 12:32) And I, If I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW, ...ALL [not just some]... unto Me.
The entire dogma of universalism is a different Gospel than the one I read in the Word of God. Universalism seems to forget that whether it is "forever and ever" or "ages and ages" that it really doesn't matter, the whole point is that there are tremendous judgements awaiting those whom are evil and do not repent and have their sins covered by the Jesus Christ.
DOGMA, ...SCHMOGMA... what a crock!
Judgment to come Monster, ...but shall those "Judgments" bring forth HARSH NEGATIVITY as you, in your message of FEAR, propose? Or is there a SWEETER and BETTER result?
Again, let's let the WORD give us an answer:(Is 26:9) With my soul have I desired Thee in the night; yea with my spirit within me will I seek thee early, ...for WHEN Thy JUDGMENTS are IN THE EARTH, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS...
The PURPOSE of JUDGMENT is not HARM as you propose AM... it is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE what you percieve and believe...
The PURPOSE of JUDGMENT, is to TEACH RIGHTEOUSNESS
... When the WORLD ...LEARNS... Righteousness, it is being TAUGHT!
The Gospels and Epistles speak of nothing except a Way, that involves doing what Jesus Christ told us to do and living a life that is simple and Holy, and a life without being in the bonds of sin, and a life with further joy in the spirit as God would grants during our stay on earth, and also everything else that is promised for us, namely eternal life.
You appear to entertain the thought that YOUR "good works" are due something... and thus you are "GRANTED" everything else, because of them... I certainly do not "poo-poo" good works... but I DO criticize them as being the basis of SALVATION...JESUS CHRIST's
work, both at the Cross, and WITHIN our LIVES is the BASIS...
ETERNAL life is NOT what is proposed in the Gospels AM... Living THIS LIFE as a LIVING sacrifice to RIGHTEOUSNESS (life which is lived RIGHTEOUSLY in the HERE and NOW, while amidst the DARKNESS of this WORLD) is what is proposed to us... along with the message of the COMPLETE and ALL encompassing SUCCESS of the CROSS... (Col 1:20)
The GOSPEL is a message of GOOD NEWS... not a proposal of FEAR which you make of it... There is NO FEAR in LOVE, and NO NEGATIVITY in the GOSPEL...
The Word GOSPEL
you so freely throw around as some THREAT which shall be HELD against us, is translated from 2 words in the NT... Euaggelizo
, and Euaggelion
... from 2 root words EUA (#32) = GOOD, well AGGELOS (#2095) = angel, messenger
The former Euaggelizo
means: (#G2097) from 2095 and 32: to announce GOOD NEWS (evangelize") (esp the Gospel: declare, bring (declare,show) GLAD (good) tidings, preach (the Gospel)
The latter Euaggelion
means: (#G2098) from the SAME as 2097, a GOOD message, i.e. the Gospel, gospel.
NEITHER encompass YOUR proposals of HARSHNESS, FEAR, and INCOMPLETE results, which disinclude MOST... (but not YOU eh? You lucky dog(ma)
For those of you whom don't know, some of universalisms arguments are that Hell is a mistranslation of a garbage dump, and forever and ever is a mistranslation of ages and ages.
GEHENNA was a PHYSICAL place (garbage dump - outside Jerusalem - Valley of the Sons of Hinnom) in which DISHONOR was a part. The message of GEHENNA was to the JEWS which were quite aware of this "dishonorable" place... in which DEAD BODIES (not living) were disposed of...
In His message concerning the SELDOM used term GEHENNA, CHRIST
noted HONORABLE LIFE as preferable to DISHONORABLE... which IS the message of the GOSPEL... not a threat of "afterlife" punishment.
As far as FOREVER... no MAN is able to understand this term, for we can only comprehend that which has beginnings and endings... FOREVER means ALWAYS. Because we cannot comprehend what that MEANS... it is an INVALID word IN ANY LANGUAGE...
OK, so instead of wicked, evil people going to HELL FOR EVER AND EVER
Instead, with the new translations in mind, they are going to the GARBAGE DUMP FOR AGES AND AGES. WHOOPEEEEE!
This statement isn't deserving of addressing, so I won't bother...
Somehow the whole dogma of universalism seems to be warped, kind of like telling a teenager that he is free, no matter what, even if he steals a car. Nevermind the fact that he is going to do 10 years in prison and get raped in there when he gets caught, because AFTER THAT HE WILL BE FREE!!!
The wise approach is to tell him not to steal the darn car and then he won't have to go to prison at all!!
Just as you FAIL to quote Scriptural support for your beliefs, you also FAIL to note where someone has taught such NONSENSE... that is because NO UNIVERSALIST teaches your foolish proposal... it is a creation of your own "warped"
Universalism hardly teaches such things... You should be ashamed of this unfounded MISREPRESENTATION of the belief of the UNIVERSAL aspect of the GOSPEL...
I have yet to meet ANYONE who holds the GOSPEL as ALL ENCOMPASSING, which notes what you state above... this is YOUR picture of MISUSE of information. ALL the blessed folks here at TENTMAKER, do not teach others that they should misbehave as much as they would desire, because they will be saved ANYWAY.
With such immature outbursts, you only display how little you know of the believers of Universalism, and less of the doctrine itself.
In this same way, universalism seems to be saying, It doesn't matter what you do, you are saved, because the bible doesn't say you are going to hell (or the garbage dump, whatever) forever and ever, it says you are going for AGES and AGES. WHOOP-DEE-DO. So you think you are helping someone have peace by letting them know that after AGES and AGES they shall finally have peace? WHY NOT TELL THEM INSTEAD, THAT THEY NEED TO TURN TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HAVE PEACE AND LIFE NOW!!!! WITHOUT SUFFERING FOR AGES AND AGES. If you ask me, it is universalism's GOOD NEWS that is warped.
UNIVERSALISTS hold the COMMON belief that JESUS CHRIST
is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN... outside that belief, there are varying views of Scripture...
Personally, I do not belief there is SUFFERING beyond this life... There shall be lamenting before the Lamb for those who did not submit to Him in this life... which only rids that one of REGRET as he/she submits at the knee... and exalts GOD in confession... which is a POSITIVE thing A-monster
GOD LOVES a broken SPIRIT and a CONTRITE HEART... something ALL of us need...
The only truth I now adhere to is the Truth of the Word of God, though I do not know all that it says, whatever it says is the Truth. Amen
Oh really? Let's hear your take on WHAT IT SAYS:HERE: (1 Tim 2:3-6)
... or HERE: (John 1:29)
... or HERE: (1 Tim 4:9-11)
... or HERE: (1 John 4:14)
... or HERE: (1 Cor 15:22)
... or HERE: (1 John 2:2
... or, ...hey, I could go on for hours...
But what does it matter... you really don't BELIEVE what it SAYS
Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
WOW! You actually used a verse! Congrats!
No UNIVERSALIST that I have met, teaches that there is no consequence for EVIL behavior... on the contrary... You reap what you SOW... but that SOWING
goes on HERE, as does the REAPING
That which is "SEWN" in the name of CHRIST
shall abide the FIRE of the LAST DAY (1 Cor 3:11-15)
and is therefore REAPED...
Is it YOUR GLORY that is REAPED AM due to YOUR OBEDIENCES? Or is it CHRIST
which works IN YOU, by submission to Him that is REAPED?
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
That "wicked" being the portion of YOU and I which is not submitted to CHRIST
... it is a lifelong battle dude... and if you are not aware of this, then you self-decieve...
As JOHN said: (1 John 1:8) if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT ...in us.
Universalism seems to want to present a message that people will accept because it sounds like good news (nevermind the suffering for ages part), but THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS OF POWER, AND THAT POWER COMES FROM THAT GOSPEL BEING PREACHED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT PRODUCING THAT POWER, not because it "sounds good" to people whom despise God.
Yadda-yadda... the message which IS the GOSPEL must be GOOD... and in GOOD, there is POWER... you don't recognize that which is GOOD for ALL which is the GOSPEL to be taught to ALL (Mark 16:15 / Matt 28:19)
... you recognize that which is GOOD for YOU...
And this GOSPEL of which I am speaking is a Gospel telling people how they are saved by repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they will receive the Holy Ghost, Now thats a Gospel with POWER.
No one is SAVED by THEIR repentance... they are SAVED by GOD drawing them to Himself, and urging by His LOVE, the repentance of a broken heart. Not because Articmonster or willieH did something.
We are TOOLS at best... no "baptism" in water saves you AM... nor repentence which is generated from YOU... Only that repentence which is provoked by GOD, is one which brings SALVATION...
It is not a Gospel telling everyone how they are saved even if they don't believe in Christ, ultimately that is (again, nevermind the suffering for ages or whatever), that wasn't the message that was preached then, and it shouldn't be the message that is preached now!
You make the work of the GOSPEL as your own... it is NOT... it is the WORK of GOD...
You mix observations OUTSIDE of the SALVATION which is INTENDED for ALL... and in that strawman, try to erect an arguement for yourself...
This will be the last time I write at this forum, feel free to shred.
We'll try to pick up the pieces and move on...
(just kidn' AM,
- Hope you come back to yourself