Sorry to leave with so much confusion

[arcticmonster2003]

Sorry to leave with so much confusion as to why I think universalism is a dogma. I actually wrote a blog on my current view of universalism at mychurch.org, I'll paste it here. See, its the whole idea of the message of universalism, that I think is in contradiction with the Gospel, not that I don't think there are not some verses that support universalism.
Its the purpose of the message I question, seeing the Word of God clearly show that those whom don't serve God shall incur harsh punishments (whether for ages and ages or forever and ever, what difference does it make, ages and ages sounds like thousands upon thousands of years!) I don't see the value in the message.
Universalism's message is telling people whom despise God that they shall have peace with God just like Jeremiah 23:17, and the Word of God clearly says that those whom despise God will be dealt with with the uttmost harshness.

Anyway, here is my post from mychurch.org

I used to consider myself a universalist. Though there is a convincing argument using certain
scriptures that universalism is true, there are many scriptures that must be ignored altogether in order to embrace universalism. I resigned myself to renounce this belief a month or two ago, as I now just believe it to be another dogma, a creed, if you will, and I don't need a creed or a statement of faith beyond merely stating that the Word of God is just that, the Word of God.
The entire dogma of universalism is a different Gospel than the one I read in the Word of God. Universalism seems to forget that whether it is "forever and ever" or "ages and ages" that it really
doesn't matter, the whole point is that there are tremendous judgements awaiting those whom are evil and do not repent and have their sins covered by the Jesus Christ. The Gospels and Epistles speak of nothing except a Way, that involves doing what Jesus Christ told us to do and living a life that is simple and Holy, and a life without being in the bonds of sin, and a life with further joy in the spirit as God would grants during our stay on earth, and also everything else that is promised for us, namely eternal life.

For those of you whom don't know, some of universalisms arguments are that Hell is a mistranslation of a garbage dump, and forever and ever is a mistranslation of ages and ages.

OK, so instead of  wicked, evil people going to HELL FOR EVER AND EVER
Instead, with the new translations in mind, they are going to the GARBAGE DUMP FOR AGES AND AGES. WHOOPEEEEE!
Somehow the whole dogma of universalism seems to be warped, kind of like telling a teenager that he is free, no matter what, even if he steals a car. Nevermind the fact that he is going to do 10 years in prison and get raped in there when he gets caught, because AFTER THAT HE WILL BE FREE!!!
The wise approach is to tell him not to steal the darn car and then he won't have to go to prison at all!!
In this same way, universalism seems to be saying, It doesn't matter what you do, you are saved, because the bible doesn't say you are going to hell (or the garbage dump, whatever) forever and ever, it says you are going for AGES and AGES. WHOOP-DEE-DO. So you think you are helping someone have peace by letting them know that after AGES and AGES they shall finally have peace? WHY NOT TELL THEM INSTEAD, THAT THEY NEED TO TURN TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HAVE PEACE AND LIFE NOW!!!! WITHOUT SUFFERING FOR AGES AND AGES. If you ask me, it is universalism's GOOD NEWS that is warped.

The only truth I now adhere to is the Truth of the Word of God, though I do not know all that it says, whatever it says is the Truth. Amen

Jeremiah 23:16  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17  They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18  For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19  Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20  The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21  I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22  But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


God Bless




Anyway, there seemed to be some confusion and so I posted this here, I still serve our Lord Jesus Christ.
Please feel free to glance over some of my writing at my mychurch.org site http://www.mychurch.org/arcticmonster2003

I still don't seek to debate this, just wanted to clear up any confusion. I don't want people to suffer for ages and ages or until the age of the ages or forever and ever, I want them to have life now, and abundantly, and in order to do this they are going to have to do it God's way and put aside there former beliefs, and they will do this by the power of the Holy Spirit when the Gospel is preached unto them. Universalism seems to want to present a message that people will accept because it sounds like good news (nevermind the suffering for ages part), but THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS OF POWER, AND THAT POWER COMES FROM THAT GOSPEL BEING PREACHED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT PRODUCING THAT POWER, not because it "sounds good" to people whom despise God. And this GOSPEL of which I am speaking is a Gospel telling people how they are saved by repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they will receive the Holy Ghost, Now thats a Gospel with POWER. It is not a Gospel telling everyone how they are saved even if they don't believe in Christ, ultimately that is (again, nevermind the suffering for ages or whatever), that wasn't the message that was preached then, and it shouldn't be the message that is preached now!

This will be the last time I write at this forum, feel free to shred.

God Bless

[Loveroftruth]

I really enjoyed this and very much agree 
Blessings Brother

[Sarah]

Their is a difference between 'forever and forever' and 'ages and ages' although you say whoopdee doo and make light of it.  Just think about it.

Universalism isn't about 'sit back and relax because we will all make it in the end' but rather a validation of the character of God. 

The gospel is introducing me to the one who has the power to free me from this death, this sin, this Gehenna.

Universalism is about seeing the good character of God, and choosing life instead of death because I am changed into His image, not because I am afraid of the after-life.

Universalism is a piece, knowing Him is the whole.

Universalism is placing myself on the level with humanity and seeing that my plight is to love and help them now, not to 'convert' them asap.

A person who uses the belief that God is the savior for all mankind as a free-for-all, does not know God nor His power.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I don't see the value in the message.
Universalism's message is telling people whom despise God that they shall have peace with God just like Jeremiah 23:17, and the Word of God clearly says that those whom despise God will be dealt with with the uttmost harshness.

The word of God "seems" to clearly say a lot of things, but who is in control?   

The truth is not all of scripture is that easily understood or believed. It is not that scripture is not translated so that our culture can read it easily it is that as it is written there is much that appears to contradict. 

The spiritual manner of understanding is seeing scripture work together without having to rewrite it.  Even bibles that still use the word hell, once you see that the scriptures do not contradict it is hard to make the case that "hell" is eternal. 


1Timothy 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and |come into a realization of the truth.


Some will argue translation here and say that "wills" should be the word "desires".   I will use that in a moment.

So, if God wills that all mankind be saved, what can stop Gods will?

Romans 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then,  Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"


Those who believe in any manner that not all are saved are told that MAN makes that free will choice.   But there is the contradiction.

Now in the case of the translation of 1 Timothy 2:4  that uses the word desire such as the NASB.

"who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Of course there is still a contradiction.

Isaiah 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying,  `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'


So, are you saying all Gods desire he will not do? 

There are many scriptures that must be ignored altogether in order to embrace universalism.

Like what? 

I don't need a creed or a statement of faith beyond merely stating that the Word of God is just that, the Word of God.

Everyone has to account for their beliefs, this statement is fine as long as you keep to yourself.   Once you wish to talk to others about what you believe and ask you what if they do not believe you, then you no longer can just stick to some simplistic words.

The entire dogma of universalism is a different Gospel than the one I read in the Word of God. Universalism seems to forget that whether it is "forever and ever" or "ages and ages" that it really
doesn't matter

You are half right.  I want people to experience the love of God now, of course, I STILL struggle myself with understanding and feeling love from God. Many times I want to be loved by people so bad it hurts because in general we have no way of giving enough love to anyone.

But I am not convinced that you actually believe that there is no difference between something that lasts a period of time and something that can never end.

[laren]

and not all universalism belief is that after this physical life there is a resurrection to more ages of "fire" (for those who didn't overcome now).  

While Noah and his family were on the ark, at the same time those of the earth were being destroyed. 

Both at the same time. 


There is nothing written into that story of those who perished to be resurrected to go through the fire again.

[jabcat]

God bless you, AM2003. 

As a f/u to Sarah, Paul, and Laren's excellent posts....when scripture speaks of God's WILL, it uses the words thelo or thelema, whereas WISH is euchomai...different words, different meanings.   Scripture also uses the word helkou where it says Jesus will draw all men to Himself...helkou means to drag forcefully.  For a good explanation of this, including other scriptures in which the word helkou (drag) is used, this is a study Craig did at http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2093.msg20711#msg20711.  God's blessing, James.

[fullarmor2]

A person who uses the belief that God is the savior for all mankind as a free-for-all, does not know God nor His power.

God wants us to respond to him from our hearts in sincerity,  with our motivation being love. Love that God places in us by his Spirit when we behold God's revelation of himself in the Word. When we hear and understand the Gospel.   So really, people need God in order to respond to the Gospel and I think ET undermines God's salvation process.  ET causes fear to be the motivating factor as opposed to God's love.
  Now when you start talking about very rebellious  and hateful  people,  I believe God has his ways of dealing with these people.  I don't think it involves unending punishment. But I do think God uses very serious corrective measures to bring these people to repentance. God knows how to break those who need breaking!  God's punishments or corrections are no joke!  So don't think that just because God doesn't  punish unendingly,  that somehow its a free for all.  Loving parents do not need to torture rebellious children in order to correct them. Appropriate  punishment gets the job done! 
    So I think you are worrying about how UR is perceived by hateful people when you shouldn't.  Its the the Holy Spirit's job to deal with people's hearts and to get people to the place where they can respond to God the right way.
 

[Sarah]

I think ET undermines God's salvation process.

It absolutely does!  I am a teacher so I think in 'teaching terms'.  If you give kids extrinsic rewards it takes away intrinsic motivation.  For example,  if I give a kid candy when he reads a book, he will no longer read it for enjoyment, but for the candy.  When the candy is gone, so is the reading.

In a backward sort of way I think this is what ET has done to the gospel.  It has changed the simplistic Love of God that came to save us from the natural consequences of sin;  disease, guilt, lust, un-satisfaction, sickness, isolation and ultimately death......into a consequence that hides the part of us that would intrinsically want to know God, by putting forth such an extrinsic motivation;  believe and you go to heaven (not you get to know God now), or you Go to a place of eternal torment (not you suffer the natural consequences of sin in this life). 

For someone who is motivated to be a Christian because of the reward/punishment, their is no intrinsic motivation and therefore Universalism makes absolutely no sense.

[fullarmor2]

 

There are many scriptures that must be ignored altogether in order to embrace universalism.

  Thats not true.  The scriptures only need to be understood correctly with the help of the Spirit. Then a person begins to see the revelation of  God's truth.  His plan for us.

[studier]

Your reasons for leaving 'universalism' and the reason why I have so many 'arguments' with those who have that universalistic dogma which states as you wrote.

This dogma is one which myself and many others fight over and over and even within this forum have been condemned for preaching. It is found in those who continue to stand on the 'absolute sovereignty' of God and has been nicknamed. It is also called "Hyper Sovereignty".

As I said, you are not alone with the opposition to the points you disagreed with and what might shock some to know, it is actually not a 'universalism' dogma which you are seeing. This mindset is found both in Calvinism, Armanianism, and some other denominations, including Catholicism.

Some Calvinists believe that God chooses one group of men for good and another group of men for evil. They believe, since God is absolutely sovereign and since they have no choice in this election, that they can do whatever they want. "Let us eat drink and be merry, whatever will be will be," These Hyper Sovereigntists in Calvinism who believe they are the elected, also believe they can do anything and sin and still going to heaven. In fact, they take advantage of the "U" "P" in TULIP which is "Unconditional Election" and  "Preserveration of the Saints" to justify their wickedness.

For some, such as Armanianism, and Catholics, they believe as long as they go to church and repent all the time, that they can sin all they want. Some believe that because they go to church every Sunday, that it doesn't matter what happens during the week, they will be going to heaven. They take the grace of God as a license to sin, and these people God warned us about, they corrupt the Truth for their own advantage.

It is not a universalist dogma, it is the wicked and evil men and women's dogma. Taking advantage and twisting Scripture for their own destruction.

Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Peter 3:16
Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 6:1
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

The wicked and evil are being are and will be punished, since we all reap what we sow. There are rewards for trusting in the Lord that those who continue to keep sinning will not participate in. There are things which those who trust in the Lord are saved from, which those who continue in their wickedness will go through.

Your reasonings, Artic, are completely understood and there are many of us who agree with you and stand up against such false doctrines which has put the way of Truth into dispute.

[studier]

For someone who is motivated to be a Christian because of the reward/punishment, their is no intrinsic motivation and therefore Universalism makes absolutely no sense.

I believe you are partially correct. If someone is motivated to be a Christian because of the reward/punishment, then they were always in it for self gain. Jesus said, those who try to save their life, will lose it but those who lose their life on account of Him, will have it saved. But I believe you are wrong concerning there is no intrinsic motivation, for there is no intrinsic motivation but the pursuit of the Way of Truth.

John 3:18-21
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

This is not to say that the way of Truth isn't rewarding. Good always has it's reward, even Jesus said this:
 
Matthew 6:2-6
"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

At the same time those who walk the wide path, will follow to their destruction. We all reap what we sow, the field that bears thistles and thorns will be burned, it's end cursed.

In reality the issue is the TYPES of reward/punishment which is administered and under what INTENT 'God' is administering them for, which matters.

[Sarah]

But I believe you are wrong concerning there is no intrinsic motivation, for there is no intrinsic motivation but the pursuit of the Way of Truth.

I'm a little confused by this. 

I'm saying the doctine of ET has the potential of robbing a person of intrinsic motivation, by making the gospel an extrinsic thing;  believe you go to heaven, don't believe you go to hell.  As opposed to knowing God for the internal motivation for the joy and peace of it.

[sparrow]

Those who despise God... are those who do not feel like God loves them.

That's all it is...


All those who basically "hate" God, which I myself hated God with a vengeance at one point in my life, all those who hate God are those who DO NOT REALIZE yet the TRUE character of God.

The "god" that they hate....

does not exist.

therefore they cannot TRULY hate Him.
They cannot TRULY despise Him.


Understand what I mean?

peace,
sparrow

[studier]

But I believe you are wrong concerning there is no intrinsic motivation, for there is no intrinsic motivation but the pursuit of the Way of Truth.

I'm a little confused by this. 

I'm saying the doctine of ET has the potential of robbing a person of intrinsic motivation, by making the gospel an extrinsic thing;  believe you go to heaven, don't believe you go to hell.  As opposed to knowing God for the internal motivation for the joy and peace of it.

I understand, thanks for clarifying. Indeed, there is still a reward/punishment process, and you are right about the proper motivation is joy, peace, love, understanding, etc.! Sorry for the confusion, I agree with you.

[Sarah]

ArcticMonster undermines the detriment of ET as not a big deal as compared to the big deal that he sees UR as promoting 'eat, drink and be merry' because "we are all goin make it." 

Both views are equally detremental.  They both have the ability to rob a person of the Kingdom of God;  love, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit.  Both views are man-centered and not about the Kingdom of God; which is the whole point of the gospel. 

He is a good God, He wants us to be at peace and have joy unspeakable, we can not do that if we serve Him out of coercian.  We can not do that if we are in sin.  We just can't.  It isn't an ominous statement, but a statement of fact.  If I hate my brother or lust after whatever I am not at peace, I do not have joy. 

Eternal Torment hides this natural consequence of sin with the overaching idea that the consequence is eternal damnation;  and therefore when some are converted to UR this HUGE consequence in removed, well then why not sin?  We don't really believe that God knows what is best and actually think we are getting away with something because we'll be 'saved' in the end.  We are deceived.  I know, I went through a stage where I sinned, but I woke up and realized, Hey God does know what He is talking about, He does love me and wants what will make me happy.

[reFORMer]

Arcticmonster,

I'd meant to try to track you down, not hearing from you for a while.  It is a personal thing...that I do love you.  One thing that does is it makes me care to not be seen as the kind of Universalist you describe because I'm not.  It's good to be reminded to stay balanced in what we share with others.  Trying to adjust the way people view God and His judgments pertains more to believers, yet it can make it seem we're more concerned to Biblically establish ultimate mercy for all than bring people immediately into an experience of the Holy Ghost.  My problem along these lines is true stories of God showing up in our lives along with entering into praise and worship seems to lead much more into God's presence than does apologetic wrangling.  However God may use our presenting the facts on many issues to establish an understanding of the truth in others that have been submerged in the traditions of men, to instead express together loving God and one another brings more abundantly the manifestation of the anointing.  There's a great Tsunami wave(s) of the Holy Spirit that is at hand.  Have you encountered what God is doing with Todd Bentley in Jacksonville, FL?  What we're in the midst of isn't it yet; but, the shadow from the giant wall of water looming over us can be perceived.

Some years ago I had a vision of the United States as a map that caught fire, the edges burning, curling up and blackening 'til the surrounding fire gathered over only a bit of the remaining center that hadn't burnt up.  For a long time I thought I had seen that the fires of judgment were going to very much change our country.  I came to realize that isn't necessary if we yield to what is probably the fire of the Holy Ghost that is going to transform the nation.  Change is coming.

[Redkora]

I don't totally embrace Universalism either, but I don't think that one needs to renounce it because one believes that it teaches that people can relax and not repent from their sin.

People who do not really want to serve God will use the doctrine of ultimate reconciliation as an excuse to sin. "You will know them by their fruits," and all that. Those people will still recieve severe correction and harsh clensing at Judgement. That correction just won't last forever and won't end in nonexistence if you believe in the universalist view.

A responsible Universalist whose heart is with God will not use Universalism as an excuse to sin. If he does, he backslidden, or his heart wasn't with God in the first place, IMO.

God may not punish sinners forever or wipe them out of existence, but I think it's silly to think that God would not take sin seriously.

[firstborn888]

Those who despise God... are those who do not feel like God loves them.

That's all it is...


All those who basically "hate" God, which I myself hated God with a vengeance at one point in my life, all those who hate God are those who DO NOT REALIZE yet the TRUE character of God.

The "god" that they hate....

does not exist.

therefore they cannot TRULY hate Him.
They cannot TRULY despise Him.


Understand what I mean?

Yes

[martincisneros]

Sorry to leave with so much confusion as to why I think universalism is a dogma. I actually wrote a blog on my current view of universalism at mychurch.org, I'll paste it here. See, its the whole idea of the message of universalism, that I think is in contradiction with the Gospel, not that I don't think there are not some verses that support universalism.
Its the purpose of the message I question, seeing the Word of God clearly show that those whom don't serve God shall incur harsh punishments (whether for ages and ages or forever and ever, what difference does it make, ages and ages sounds like thousands upon thousands of years!) I don't see the value in the message.
Universalism's message is telling people whom despise God that they shall have peace with God just like Jeremiah 23:17, and the Word of God clearly says that those whom despise God will be dealt with with the uttmost harshness.

Anyway, here is my post from mychurch.org

I used to consider myself a universalist. Though there is a convincing argument using certain
scriptures that universalism is true, there are many scriptures that must be ignored altogether in order to embrace universalism. I resigned myself to renounce this belief a month or two ago, as I now just believe it to be another dogma, a creed, if you will, and I don't need a creed or a statement of faith beyond merely stating that the Word of God is just that, the Word of God.
The entire dogma of universalism is a different Gospel than the one I read in the Word of God. Universalism seems to forget that whether it is "forever and ever" or "ages and ages" that it really
doesn't matter, the whole point is that there are tremendous judgements awaiting those whom are evil and do not repent and have their sins covered by the Jesus Christ. The Gospels and Epistles speak of nothing except a Way, that involves doing what Jesus Christ told us to do and living a life that is simple and Holy, and a life without being in the bonds of sin, and a life with further joy in the spirit as God would grants during our stay on earth, and also everything else that is promised for us, namely eternal life.

For those of you whom don't know, some of universalisms arguments are that Hell is a mistranslation of a garbage dump, and forever and ever is a mistranslation of ages and ages.

OK, so instead of  wicked, evil people going to HELL FOR EVER AND EVER
Instead, with the new translations in mind, they are going to the GARBAGE DUMP FOR AGES AND AGES. WHOOPEEEEE!
Somehow the whole dogma of universalism seems to be warped, kind of like telling a teenager that he is free, no matter what, even if he steals a car. Nevermind the fact that he is going to do 10 years in prison and get raped in there when he gets caught, because AFTER THAT HE WILL BE FREE!!!
The wise approach is to tell him not to steal the darn car and then he won't have to go to prison at all!!
In this same way, universalism seems to be saying, It doesn't matter what you do, you are saved, because the bible doesn't say you are going to hell (or the garbage dump, whatever) forever and ever, it says you are going for AGES and AGES. WHOOP-DEE-DO. So you think you are helping someone have peace by letting them know that after AGES and AGES they shall finally have peace? WHY NOT TELL THEM INSTEAD, THAT THEY NEED TO TURN TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HAVE PEACE AND LIFE NOW!!!! WITHOUT SUFFERING FOR AGES AND AGES. If you ask me, it is universalism's GOOD NEWS that is warped.

The only truth I now adhere to is the Truth of the Word of God, though I do not know all that it says, whatever it says is the Truth. Amen

Jeremiah 23:16  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17  They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18  For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19  Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20  The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21  I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22  But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


God Bless




Anyway, there seemed to be some confusion and so I posted this here, I still serve our Lord Jesus Christ.
Please feel free to glance over some of my writing at my mychurch.org site http://www.mychurch.org/arcticmonster2003

I still don't seek to debate this, just wanted to clear up any confusion. I don't want people to suffer for ages and ages or until the age of the ages or forever and ever, I want them to have life now, and abundantly, and in order to do this they are going to have to do it God's way and put aside there former beliefs, and they will do this by the power of the Holy Spirit when the Gospel is preached unto them. Universalism seems to want to present a message that people will accept because it sounds like good news (nevermind the suffering for ages part), but THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS OF POWER, AND THAT POWER COMES FROM THAT GOSPEL BEING PREACHED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT PRODUCING THAT POWER, not because it "sounds good" to people whom despise God. And this GOSPEL of which I am speaking is a Gospel telling people how they are saved by repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they will receive the Holy Ghost, Now thats a Gospel with POWER. It is not a Gospel telling everyone how they are saved even if they don't believe in Christ, ultimately that is (again, nevermind the suffering for ages or whatever), that wasn't the message that was preached then, and it shouldn't be the message that is preached now!

This will be the last time I write at this forum, feel free to shred.

God Bless

We're on the exact same page, at least with what you've posted here. Check this out and read both sections of "why to" preach it and "why not to" preach it: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2753.0

[CHB]

I don't totally embrace Universalism either, but I don't think that one needs to renounce it because one believes that it teaches that people can relax and not repent from their sin.

People who do not really want to serve God will use the doctrine of ultimate reconciliation as an excuse to sin. "You will know them by their fruits," and all that. Those people will still recieve severe correction and harsh clensing at Judgement. That correction just won't last forever and won't end in nonexistence if you believe in the universalist view.

A responsible Universalist whose heart is with God will not use Universalism as an excuse to sin. If he does, he backslidden, or his heart wasn't with God in the first place, IMO.

God may not punish sinners forever or wipe them out of existence, but I think it's silly to think that God would not take sin seriously.

This is pretty much the way I see this as well. Although I totally  believe in the salvation of all.

I don't see Universalism as relaxing and not repenting of our sins. I believe we should be sorry for the wrong things we do and repent but God even gives us this ability, it is up to him when this will happen. Some he gives this to now and some when "every knee will bow". If we all knew God and his plan of salvation, every knee would bow NOW but that is not the way God has chosen to bring everyone to him.

CHB

[sparrow]

Yes

 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Articmonster...

Frankly, this is possibly the most COWARDLY post I have read here in 3yrs...

You name Universalism a DOGMA... and FAIL to note WHY... All though you allude to them, you name NOTHING in the Scriptures to support this... then wave bye-bye...

I have a thing or two to say, for those observing your misplaced decision... 

Sorry to leave with so much confusion as to why I think universalism is a dogma. I actually wrote a blog on my current view of universalism at mychurch.org, I'll paste it here. See, its the whole idea of the message of universalism, that I think is in contradiction with the Gospel, not that I don't think there are not some verses that support universalism.

SOME?  Over 100?  Throughout the Scritpures?

Its the purpose of the message I question, seeing the Word of God clearly show that those whom don't serve God shall incur harsh punishments (whether for ages and ages or forever and ever, what difference does it make, ages and ages sounds like thousands upon thousands of years!) I don't see the value in the message.

Please!  You don't see the value of GOD's LOVE reaching out to even the VILEST sinner?  But I'm sure find "VALUE" in the portion that REACHED YOU eh AM?

There are consequences to SIN in THIS LIFE... How old are you?  If you are young, you are likely to KNOW NOT of the degree of these consequences... Nor of the quantity in  which they occur.

We are born into THIS LIFE, without consent, without choosing ANY of the parameters of the "deck" we're dealt... into a NATURE which gravitates NATURALLY to SIN... and you note those who fail to "make the right choices" to MORE SUFFERING after this?

So nice for YOU that you found the "way" eh?

It is easy to JUDGE others who are lost, once YOU have "found the way"...

Universalism's message is telling people whom despise God that they shall have peace with God just like Jeremiah 23:17, and the Word of God clearly says that those whom despise God will be dealt with with the uttmost harshness.

I notice in this little (forgive me) "tantrum"    ...against the BIBLICALLY stated "SALVATION of ALL"... that you noted ...ZERO Scriptures to support that assertion... 

Anyway, here is my post from mychurch.org

Who cares?   

I used to consider myself a universalist. Though there is a convincing argument using certain
scriptures that universalism is true, there are many scriptures that must be ignored altogether in order to embrace universalism.

Noticeably, you did not name ANY of them...

I resigned myself to renounce this belief a month or two ago, as I now just believe it to be another dogma, a creed, if you will, and I don't need a creed or a statement of faith beyond merely stating that the Word of God is just that, the Word of God.

"Creeds" are written by MEN...  The WORD of GOD, states the MISSION of CHRIST and His WILL concerning that MISSION:

(2 Pet 3:9)  The LORD is NOT SLACK concerning His promise, as SOME MEN [such as yourself maybe?] count slackness... but is LONGSUFFERING to US-ward ...NOT WILLING... that ANY should PERISH, but that ...ALL... should come to repentence...

How is this "coming" we are to do, ...be done?  Well AM... let's let SCRIPTURE (not Articmonster) speak:

(John 6:44)  NO MAN ...CAN... come to Me except, the Father which SENT Me, DRAW him, and I ...WILL... raise him at the last day.

Sent? ...why?

(John 3:17)  God SENT ...NOT... His son into the world to CONDEMN the world, but that the WORLD, ...THROUGH HIM, might be SAVED.

(Will CHRIST ...do... what He was SENT NOT, to do - AM? According to YOU he will! )

Concerning WHO? 

(Luke 19:10) For the Son of man is COME to SEEK and to SAVE [who?] ...that which is ...LOST...

(How many do you seem to think, ...are LOST there - AM? ...Just YOU maybe?)

DRAW?  Draw WHO?

(John 12:32) And I, If I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW, ...ALL [not just some]... unto Me.

The entire dogma of universalism is a different Gospel than the one I read in the Word of God. Universalism seems to forget that whether it is "forever and ever" or "ages and ages" that it really doesn't matter, the whole point is that there are tremendous judgements awaiting those whom are evil and do not repent and have their sins covered by the Jesus Christ.

DOGMA, ...SCHMOGMA... what a crock! 

There IS Judgment to come Monster, ...but shall those "Judgments" bring forth HARSH NEGATIVITY as you, in your message of FEAR, propose?  Or is there a SWEETER and BETTER result?    Again, let's let the WORD give us an answer:

(Is 26:9)  With my soul have I desired Thee in the night; yea with my spirit within me will I seek thee early, ...for WHEN Thy JUDGMENTS are IN THE EARTH, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS...

The PURPOSE of JUDGMENT is not HARM as you propose AM... it is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE what you percieve and believe...

The PURPOSE of JUDGMENT, is to TEACH RIGHTEOUSNESS... When the WORLD ...LEARNS... Righteousness, it is being TAUGHT!

The Gospels and Epistles speak of nothing except a Way, that involves doing what Jesus Christ told us to do and living a life that is simple and Holy, and a life without being in the bonds of sin, and a life with further joy in the spirit as God would grants during our stay on earth, and also everything else that is promised for us, namely eternal life.

You appear to entertain the thought that YOUR "good works" are due something... and thus you are "GRANTED" everything else, because of them... I certainly do not "poo-poo" good works... but I DO criticize them as being the basis of SALVATION...

JESUS CHRIST's work, both at the Cross, and WITHIN our LIVES is the BASIS...

ETERNAL life is NOT what is proposed in the Gospels AM... Living THIS LIFE as a LIVING sacrifice to RIGHTEOUSNESS (life which is lived RIGHTEOUSLY in the HERE and NOW, while amidst the DARKNESS of this WORLD) is what is proposed to us... along with the message of the COMPLETE and ALL encompassing SUCCESS of the CROSS... (Col 1:20)

The GOSPEL is a message of GOOD NEWS... not a proposal of FEAR which you make of it...  There is NO FEAR in LOVE, and NO NEGATIVITY in the  GOSPEL...

The Word GOSPEL you so freely throw around as some THREAT which shall be HELD against us, is translated from 2 words in the NT... Euaggelizo, and Euaggelion...  from 2 root words EUA (#32) = GOOD, well AGGELOS (#2095) = angel, messenger

The former Euaggelizo means:  (#G2097) from 2095 and 32: to announce GOOD NEWS (evangelize") (esp the Gospel: declare, bring (declare,show) GLAD (good) tidings, preach (the Gospel)

The latter Euaggelion means: (#G2098) from the SAME as 2097, a GOOD message, i.e. the Gospel, gospel.

NEITHER encompass YOUR proposals of HARSHNESS, FEAR, and INCOMPLETE results, which disinclude MOST... (but not YOU eh?  You lucky dog(ma) )

DOGMA, Schmogma... 

For those of you whom don't know, some of universalisms arguments are that Hell is a mistranslation of a garbage dump, and forever and ever is a mistranslation of ages and ages.

GEHENNA was a PHYSICAL place (garbage dump - outside Jerusalem - Valley of the Sons of Hinnom) in which DISHONOR was a part.  The message of GEHENNA was to the JEWS which were quite aware of this "dishonorable" place... in which DEAD BODIES (not living) were disposed of... 

In His message concerning the SELDOM used term GEHENNA, CHRIST noted HONORABLE LIFE as preferable to DISHONORABLE... which IS the message of the GOSPEL... not a threat of "afterlife" punishment.

As far as FOREVER... no MAN is able to understand this term, for we can only comprehend that which has beginnings and endings... FOREVER means ALWAYS.  Because we cannot comprehend what that MEANS... it is an INVALID word IN ANY LANGUAGE...

OK, so instead of  wicked, evil people going to HELL FOR EVER AND EVER
Instead, with the new translations in mind, they are going to the GARBAGE DUMP FOR AGES AND AGES. WHOOPEEEEE!

This statement isn't deserving of addressing, so I won't bother... 

Somehow the whole dogma of universalism seems to be warped, kind of like telling a teenager that he is free, no matter what, even if he steals a car. Nevermind the fact that he is going to do 10 years in prison and get raped in there when he gets caught, because AFTER THAT HE WILL BE FREE!!!

The wise approach is to tell him not to steal the darn car and then he won't have to go to prison at all!!

Just as you FAIL to quote Scriptural support for your beliefs, you also FAIL to note where someone has taught such NONSENSE... that is because NO UNIVERSALIST teaches your foolish proposal... it is a creation of your own "warped" viewpoint. 

Universalism hardly teaches such things... You should be ashamed of this unfounded MISREPRESENTATION of the belief of the UNIVERSAL aspect of the GOSPEL...

I have yet to meet ANYONE who holds the GOSPEL as ALL ENCOMPASSING, which notes what you state above... this is YOUR picture of MISUSE of information.  ALL the blessed folks here at TENTMAKER, do not teach others that they should misbehave as much as they would desire, because they will be saved ANYWAY.

With such immature outbursts, you only display how little you know of the believers of Universalism, and less of the doctrine itself.

In this same way, universalism seems to be saying, It doesn't matter what you do, you are saved, because the bible doesn't say you are going to hell (or the garbage dump, whatever) forever and ever, it says you are going for AGES and AGES. WHOOP-DEE-DO. So you think you are helping someone have peace by letting them know that after AGES and AGES they shall finally have peace? WHY NOT TELL THEM INSTEAD, THAT THEY NEED TO TURN TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HAVE PEACE AND LIFE NOW!!!! WITHOUT SUFFERING FOR AGES AND AGES. If you ask me, it is universalism's GOOD NEWS that is warped.

UNIVERSALISTS hold the COMMON belief that JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN... outside that belief, there are varying views of Scripture...

Personally, I do not belief there is SUFFERING beyond this life... There shall be lamenting before the Lamb for those who did not submit to Him in this life... which only rids that one of REGRET as he/she submits at the knee... and exalts GOD in confession... which is a POSITIVE thing A-monster...

GOD LOVES a broken SPIRIT and a CONTRITE HEART... something ALL of us need...

The only truth I now adhere to is the Truth of the Word of God, though I do not know all that it says, whatever it says is the Truth. Amen

Oh really?  Let's hear your take on WHAT IT SAYS:

HERE: (1 Tim 2:3-6)... or
HERE: (John 1:29)... or
HERE: (1 Tim 4:9-11)... or
HERE: (1 John 4:14)... or
HERE: (1 Cor 15:22)... or 
HERE: (1 John 2:2... or, ...hey, I could go on for hours...

But what does it matter... you really don't BELIEVE what it SAYS doya AM?

Jeremiah 23:16  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17  They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18  For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19  Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20  The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21  I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22  But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

WOW!  You actually used a verse!  Congrats! 

No UNIVERSALIST that I have met, teaches that there is no consequence for EVIL behavior... on the contrary... You reap what you SOW... but that SOWING goes on HERE, as does the REAPING...

That which is "SEWN" in the name of CHRIST shall abide the FIRE of the LAST DAY (1 Cor 3:11-15) and is therefore REAPED...

Is it YOUR GLORY that is REAPED AM due to YOUR OBEDIENCES?  Or is it CHRIST which works IN YOU, by submission to Him that is REAPED?

2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

That "wicked" being the portion of YOU and I which is not submitted to CHRIST... it is a lifelong battle dude... and if you are not aware of this, then you self-decieve...

As JOHN said: (1 John 1:8) if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT ...in us.

Universalism seems to want to present a message that people will accept because it sounds like good news (nevermind the suffering for ages part), but THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS OF POWER, AND THAT POWER COMES FROM THAT GOSPEL BEING PREACHED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT PRODUCING THAT POWER, not because it "sounds good" to people whom despise God.

Yadda-yadda... the message which IS the GOSPEL must be GOOD... and in GOOD, there is POWER... you don't recognize that which is GOOD for ALL which is the GOSPEL to be taught to ALL (Mark 16:15 / Matt 28:19) ... you recognize that which is GOOD for YOU...

And this GOSPEL of which I am speaking is a Gospel telling people how they are saved by repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they will receive the Holy Ghost, Now thats a Gospel with POWER.

No one is SAVED by THEIR repentance... they are SAVED by GOD drawing them to Himself, and urging by His LOVE, the repentance of a broken heart.  Not because Articmonster or willieH did something.

We are TOOLS at best... no "baptism" in water saves you AM... nor repentence which is generated from YOU... Only that repentence which is provoked by GOD, is one which brings SALVATION...

It is not a Gospel telling everyone how they are saved even if they don't believe in Christ, ultimately that is (again, nevermind the suffering for ages or whatever), that wasn't the message that was preached then, and it shouldn't be the message that is preached now!

You make the work of the GOSPEL as your own... it is NOT... it is the WORK of GOD...

You mix observations OUTSIDE of the SALVATION which is INTENDED for ALL... and in that strawman, try to erect an arguement for yourself...

This will be the last time I write at this forum, feel free to shred.

We'll try to pick up the pieces and move on...    (just kidn' AM,  - Hope you come back to yourself  )

PeaCe

...willieH 

[martincisneros]

The threats of Scripture have their value for the "once saved, always saved" Calvinist and Arminian who believes that they can partake of the Lord's Body and Blood on Sunday morning and be fornicating Sunday evening, thinking that the threats of Scripture apply to everyone else but to themselves.  The Lord's mercies are more abused as an excuse to sin by those types of so-called Christians and by those who are Universalists on philosophical terms only, believing only in the universal love and in none of the universal chastisements.

There is something medicinal in the truth of the Universal Restoration for the "once saved, hardly saved" type like some types of Baptists and some types of Pentecostals who believe that the least little sin nullifies what Christ had previously done in saving someone from their sin, and that if someone supposedly blows it big time after they've been saved, then they were never saved, etc., etc., etc.  The Universal Restoration demonstrates that God doesn't toss one to the furthest reaches of the universe where nothing but darkness and oppressive heat reign.

I can't take it upon myself to try to take the place of the Holy Spirit by manipulating the Gospel that I preach in a condemning way and then try to say that it's the conviction of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of someone that I just spent 90 minutes threatening for their weaknesses, lack of understanding of Christ's demands upon their lives, etc.  Preaching needs to be from a fullness of the Word of God that comes from daily feeding upon it, so that any corrections that take place in the course of a message are 99% unconscious on my part, and therefore aren't my carnal mind trying to give anybody what I think that they deserve.  I've absolutely frightened some people nearly half to death with my preaching after having come into UR 'cause the Holy Spirit without me being the least bit conscious about it, or why I was saying what I was saying, got me off onto a tangent and I kept on and on and on teetering on a UR version of "sinner's in the Hands of an angry God" type stuff, that although I kept it abundantly clear that there was light at the end of the tunnel if they went the wrong way that they'd been premeditating, but some people REALLY DID REPENT, but I didn't work it up or try to force anyone to immediately yield to the Spirit of the Lord.

The confusion isn't over UR, but over living a Spirit-filled life so that when you really really bite someone's rear like a junkyard dog with rabbies, it's soooo unconscious on your part and is carried out in such a supernatural way to where the Holy Spirit directing the dialogue or monologue and right when it's the Word in season you unconsciously switch back over to laying it on thick about God's boundless love and give people somewhere to go after Christ within you has taken them out to the wood shed and have given them their spanking. 

It's totally out of line to try to work on preaching that way or to decide that your preaching needs to include more of that.  Our task is to be filled to overflowing with the entire New Covenant and with the fullness of the Holy Spirit to overflowing and then just let the chips fall where they may 'cause you know Whose Hands you're in, Whose Hands they're in, and because you know how it'll all turn out, you're not afraid to be God's defribulator when Jesus in His High Priestly Ministry, Emmanuel within you, or the Angel of the Lord wants to direct your speech to be the Sword of the Spirit that doesn't get put up until there's a partitioning of the thoughts and intents of the heart that brings about repentance and recovery after every thought has been taken captive to the obedience of Christ according to Colossians 2 and 2Corinthians 10.


Let me clarify my "I didn't work it up or try to force anyone to immediately yield to the Spirit of the Lord." comment lest someone later try to say that I don't believe in pointing people towards embracing the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  I meant that we can't force conversions like Constantine or like the Inquisitors of more recent centuries.  If someone disagrees with you, then they're going to disagree with you when you point out their need to renounce their ungodliness and to immediately embrace the claims of Jesus Christ over their lives and yield to His Lordship ever more.  I do believe in encouraging, exhorting, and begging people to be reconciled to God, for He hath made Him to be sin for us Who knew no sin, so that we'd be made the righteousness of God in Him.  But gratuitous threatenings don't multiply evangelistic fruit that'll remain in this life.  Pressing upon people their immediate need for repentance is the job of every evangelist and Bible teacher who would be faithful with their commission that they've received from the Head of the Church.  As I said in my previous post, we're not the least bit in disagreement upon this. 

I'm thinking that that was more the basis of the break between Ultra UR and Restorative UR in the 19th century.  I think that Hosea Ballou, Caleb Rich, and others were of the opinion that if nothing but the love of God were emphasized, then people would repent and embrace the Lordship of Jesus by the tens of millions.  Perhaps in a world where the mainline denominations were pumping out a steady stream of "sinners in the hands of an angry God" stuff, but historians point to the decline in ""serious"" Hell preaching in mainline denominations as the main reason for the wane in the number of adherents to UR.  For perhaps a few decades, we'd all but lost much of our theological distinctiveness within the Body of Christ -- at least the part that mattered to selfish babes in Christ that they weren't being threatened any more, no matter whatever happens to those outside of their little social Church or whatever.

When all that Christian Universalists know of the Bible is how things will all pan out, then any time that the mainstream Church so-called "liberalizes," then we lose thousands from our ranks in UR.  It's a historical fact that UR maintains much of it's convicting power as the beauty in the contrast when ET Christianity is it's most obvious and obnoxious.  Christian Universalists that aren't skillful in the Word of Righteousness and the weapons of righteousness in their right hand and left that Paul speaks of in Scripture, and therefore aren't the most effective intercessors who materialize the plan of God in the earth really are in an area of spiritual danger because mainstream Christianity will embrace our tenants of faith.  That's without question.  It's only a matter of when, when you compare what we have before us with the historical record.  But when the Philistines have the pillars of the temple falling upon them, killing all of their former generations of unbelief, I can't help wondering if Samson will yet again die.  Samson being the faithful UR believer, who perhaps isn't as skillfull in other areas of the Word of God as they've been needing to be.  That's the furthest thing from being the case with either all or most, but it is too many Universalists who don't know more than UR in the Scriptures.  There is a danger here that you've been used of the Lord to draw our attention to, arcticmonster2003, that I hope that all Christian Universalists here will take to heart.  Not so that they'll soften their emphasis upon UR.  Not by any stretch of your imagination.  May every Universalist open the window of their house before they go to bed tonight and scream at the top of their lungs that there is no Hell and that Christ rules over all

Though Gary Amirault has indicated that these discussion boards are to remain UR centered, I hope that Christian Universalists will pick up a wider selection of materials from their local Christian bookstore and know other areas of the Word of God -- even if for the time being they talk of nothing else but UR.  Perhaps DVD presentations of things that you might only mildly agree with and believe in might be more the way to go for some folks than necessarily picking up a stack of books that they'll fall asleep over every night.

How does the UR that you believe enlighten the subject of water baptism?  How does the UR that you believe enlighten the subject of prayer?  How does the UR that you believe enlighten the subject of the fruit of the spirit?  How does the UR that you believe enlighten the subject of views of the God-head, views of current events and eschatology, and views of the Bread and Cup?  We all need to grow and be challenged with the entire Bible, and if for no other reason than to remain mentally fresh and vocally vibrant, we need to read those things that challenge us or fills out our vocabulary for sharing UR with Christians of other persuations for whom "life/death" issues aren't necessarily what they're accustomed to focusing on in their Churches because of other areas of doctrinal emphasis.  There are practical, useful, and edifying subjects that are neither directly UR nor related to any type of silly "theonomy" so that none among us should recoil in horror at widening our sphere of influence, sanctification, and appologetic expertise.

[meerkat]

Arctic monster

If you read here I just wanted to say that when you said this

It is not a Gospel telling everyone how they are saved even if they don't believe in Christ, ultimately that is (again, nevermind the suffering for ages or whatever), that wasn't the message that was preached then, and it shouldn't be the message that is preached now!

Nobody is saved  (made whole, healed) until they believe in Christ  ........ if not in this life .... then at the end when every knee shall bow and tongue confess.   

As in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive 

You seem to thinking of a form of univeralism which is not christian.   

[arcticmonster2003]

Ok, just had to do one more post

Calm down there willieH, its not you I renounced, nor other christians whom believe in universalism, nor any person for that matter. Its the title, that, up till now, one may have been able to label me with, or to be honest I was beginning to label myself with. That what I'm renouncing. The reason I don't want to post at tentmaker anymore is, because besides not wanting to debate endlessly about whom is going to heaven, there are many members here at the tentmaker forum whom don't believe in the validity of the Word of God, the testimony of Moses and the prophets and things such as these, and I have been led not to engage in such debates and arguments over these things. See, the thing is, there are so many members at this forum whom don't hold these truths that it is very difficult (for me) to speak about basic christian things (such as the fear of God, of which my entire thread ended up getting completely deleted) without the thread becoming very unfriendly by harsh verbal fighting because there are members here who don't hold the same belief in the Word of God and fear of God and such that I do (namely, that the Word of God, Old and New Testament, is God's Word and infallible), and besides this thing, this lack of reverence for the Word of God and Moses and the prophets is allowed here, by those whom have the power to stop it or even encouraged by some of the same. I have heard more arguments on why the bible is flawed or prophet bashing and such here at this forum, than the rest of the times I heard these things in my entire life combined (and I've only been at this forum for like a year), not that I wouldn't hear these things in other places if I debated with unbelievers, but I don't go into a group of unbelievers and start talking about the fear of God either. In the same way that I don't want to go into a group of unbelievers and start putting pearls in front of them to trample on, in that same way, with the great amount of members at this forum whom don't believe the the Holy Bible is the Word of God, I don't want to share my christian beliefs which are based upon that Word of God here at this forum where they will (have been, I'm not speculating here) pounced upon with no help from the moderators, mostly because there are some moderators at this forum whom don't think the Holy Bible is the infallible Word of God either, and that both parties (both the person whom believes the Holy Bible is the Word of God and those whom don't hold this belief) both have valid positions for their debate. For a person like me, with my beliefs, this forum just isn't the right place due to these things.

I still think any belief system that applies a label to a person, other than the label of christian or member of the body of Christ (you get the idea), is a dogma, this is my opinion, and this makes the title of universalist a dogma in my book because it is labeling a member of Christ's body by the application of a specific, or unspecific belief that proactively and very effectively in many cases seperates members of the body of Christ over secondary doctrine (doctrines besides that of Christ on the cross).

And, on top of that, the entire purpose of the belief of "universalism" has been taken from me, and exists no more, as I explained the best I could earlier.

Now all anybody can call me, is a Christian. Thats how I was led to walk right now, as a Christian or member of the body of Christ. With this in mind, I could still post here, but I have listed other reasons on why I don't want to stay at this particular apologetic forum.

(never really got to know you martin cisneros, I'll check out your website sometime, I have given my reasons of why I have been led to stay away from this forum and why I must leave)

God Bless