Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation

Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?

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shawn:
Recently someone close to me used these verses to suggest that not everyone is saved.  I responded with the following email.  What did I miss?

Assuming the change in wording is because Paul is excluding presents an interesting problem.  Paul states that ALL men were under condemnation, then in the next set of verses states that many were made sinners..  Is Paul saying that all were under condemnation, yet not everyone was a sinner?  That can't be...because in Romans 3:23 Paul wrote this...
 
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 
 
So, we can reason that the change in wording isn't to exclude.  If so, Paul would be contradicting himself.  Let me ask you a question, can these two sentences mean the same thing?
 
The whole world was celebrating the new year.
The many peoples of the world were celebrating the new year.
 
Yes, they can and often do.  And that is how  I look at Romans 5:18-19.  Through Adam's sin all men were condemned and made into slaves to sin, by no choice of their own.  This was Adam's doing.  And, by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the Cross a free gift came to the world, given to the entire world, and eventually everyone (all, the many) shall be made righteous.  This is Christ's doing...his free gift to us all.  Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was just as effective at saving men as Adam's was condemning them.
 
Also, I don't think the focus on the word gift was the need for it to be received, and something done with the gift.  I believe the focus on the word gift is the fact that Paul was stating salvation is a pure gift...not something we have or could/can earn.  To read anything more into that word is likely being shaded by previous teachings on the subject.  It is very difficult to clear our minds and hearts of old teachings in order to get a fresh look at the Holy Scriptures.
 

WhiteWings:
Shawn, this is a tricky one...

Variation #1
Verse 18 is simple. All are made rightous. Because the Bible doesn't contradict the many in verse 19 simply means all.

Variation #2
Verse 18 claims all people were made sinners. Jesus wasn't a sinner. So all is not 100%. It's believers only
Verse 19 just says there are many believers.

Variation #3
Both verses define groups. The groups don't change within the verse. So if all a doomed all are saved. If some are doomed then some are saved. Those that were not doomed don't need to be saved.
Knoch's commentary.
18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (1Cor 15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.

19 The contrast here is between one and many, not between the many and the all of the previous statement. The many here are the all of verse eighteen.

The verses are about contrast. One person has a negative impact on many. But one person also has a positive impact on many.
Because of it's clear/widely accepted that Adam sinned and automatically everyone else was doomed, it's also reaonbly to assume the contrast implied here is that because of Jesus' sinlessness automatically every is saved.

The KJV translation doesn't seem accurate to me. First a few different translations:
18 Hence then, as through one fault, [the sentence was] unto all men unto condemnation, so, also, through one recovery of righteousness, [the decree of favour] is unto all men for righteous acquittal unto life;
18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
18 So then, as through an offense of one man was for condemnation for all men, so also through a righteousness of one man was for justification of life for all men.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
18 So then, as the effect of one act of wrongdoing was that punishment came on all men, even so the effect of one act of righteousness was righteousness of life for all men.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
18 Therefore, just as through the offense of one, all men fell under condemnation, so also through the justice of one, all men fall under justification unto life.
18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.
18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life.
18 Thus as through one downfall all humanity is unto condemnation; even thus through one justification all humanity is unto justification of life.
18 Therefore as by the offence of through one judgment came upon downfall to all men humanity is to condemnation; even so thus by the righteousness of through one the free gift justification came upon all men to all humanity is unto justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
18 Therefore, in the same manner that by the iniquity of one [guilt came] upon all men unto condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one, [grace came] upon all men unto justification of life.
18 Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 As then through one trespass all men have come under condemnation, so through one act of righteousness all obtain the gift of righteousness unto life.
18 The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. The result of righteousness was justification acquittal, which brings life for all men.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
18 Therefore as by the fall of one for all men to condemnation; so also by the justification of one for all men to justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.


Many translations show that life/justification was declared/forced upon.
That aligns perfectly with the following verse: Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
God wasn't begging for someone to accept it. He simply declared it. Even, especially, on the ungodly. If verse 5 declared ungodly rightous it would be silly to assume verses 18 and 19 are about believers only.

The Greek in verse requires a lot of 'adding'  to translate it to English.

Rom 5 [KJVCNT]
18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The red words are both translated from the same Greek word.
εἰς
eis
Thayer Definition:
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: a primary preposition
Citing in TDNT: 2:420, 211


My  :2c: conclusion.
Whatever the number of doomed people, those very same doomed people are made/declared rightous. No conditions of any kind. Love your enemy.

shawn:
I appreciate your input...good stuff.

shawn:
Any other opinions?

Molly:
Paul is just repeating himself using a literary device.   For as by one...all, so by one...all.   For as by one, the many...so by one, the many.

The many=all.  He's just being 'poetic' while at the same time using parellelism to clarify.

Did it work?  It just seems to confuse people, even the translators.  But Paul is saying the same thing twice, in two different ways.


18 One man's sin brought guilt to all people. So also one right act made all people right with God. And all who are right with God will live. 19 Many people were made sinners because one man did not obey. But one man did obey. That is why many people will be made right with God. [Rom 5]


I think the real problem is nobody can believe it. lol

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