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Offline anti_nietzsche

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question about the aionios controversy
« on: September 28, 2009, 07:47:42 PM »
Hi,

I got to know at an article on this site that there is a problem with the translation of the original greek term "aionios" into contemporary language. IE, UR believers usually hold that it must be translated as age-during.

Now I've read some pages where they are examining the UR ideas and they came up with the question why we don't allow ainios to mean eternal in the case of punishments while we keep ainios as eternal in the case of eternal life, eternal God, eternal spirit, etc.

I am really puzzled by this so if you have an idea if this can be reconciled, please let me know.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: question about the aionios controversy
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2009, 07:56:28 PM »
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You mean that verse I assume? It has several answers.

Eternal life and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 do not have an equal duration.

Augustine, an early church theologian, demonstrates a stubborn common fallacy in which he compared an adjective to an adjective. In other words he saw this Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." and concluded that the we must compare the eternals, if eternal in eternal life is perpetual, then so to is the eternal in eternal punishment.  On the surface such bold conclusion does seem completely logically and sense, though it is actually a fallacy. The comparison of adjectives, does not make the adjectives equal.


EXAMPLE 1

If everyone was asked to perform objective A. Those who did not, will go away to a huge loss, those who did to a huge gain.


Is the measurement of the adjective "huge" equal? If the loss was a million dollars, but the gain was a billion dollars, would both the loss and the gain still not be huge?


Let us get even deeper.


EXAMPLE 2

We live in a big solar system in a big universe.


Is the measurement of the adjective "big" equal? Is the "big" in "big solar system" equal to the "big" in "big universe"? Both our solar system and the universe is big, but our solar system is not as big as our universe.


Therefore we recognize that is it not true, an adjective does not equally apply across the board to it's usage to another noun. It is in fact the combination of an adjective & noun which needs to be compared. This is called a 'noun phrase'.


Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


Revisiting the examples:


EXAMPLE 1

If everyone was asked to perform objective A. Those who did not, will go away to a huge loss, those who did to a huge gain.


Compare the noun phrase "huge loss" and "huge gain" and find they are not equal.


EXAMPLE 2

We live in a big solar system in a big universe.


Compare the noun phrase "big solar system" and "big universe" and find they are not equal.


CONCLUSION


The conclusion of the matter is the usage of the adjective "eternal" applies only the intrinsic nature of the noun it is describing otherwise known as a noun phrase and not to the "eternal" mentioned elsewhere. It is this concept which is applied to both words. Therefore eternal punishment is not equal to eternal life; the eternal sin is not equal to eternal kingdom; and so on.


Anyone who thinks differently is either deceived or purposely lying.


All this, and I haven't even touched definition of AIONIOS yet.


So speaking of definitions... Let us discuss them:

DEFINITIONS


What are AION and AIONIOS? In case you are not aware, these words are translated (sometimes erroneously) as forever, eternity, and eternal in Scripture.


Here are the definitions:


What is AION?

In Classical, Ancient, Higher and Lower forms of Greek have consistently defined AION as:

(A noun)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity.

2) period of time, age.

3) the worlds*, universe.*

*This one is contested


Now remember these definition of AION to find out what the definition of AIONIOS is. The adjective AIONIOS is the adjective form of the noun AION. Just like the adjective 'heavenly' is the adjective form of the noun 'heaven' or the adjective 'cicular' is the adjective form of the noun 'circle'. That means knowing the definition of AION, we know the definition of AIONIOS.


AIONIOS

(Adjective)

1) of or in the AION.

2) of, belonging to, or coming from the AION.

3) resembling or befitting AION.


CONCLUSION


AION may or may not mean indefinite time even up to perpetually; or may or may not mean definitive time with absolute beginning and end.


AIONIOS may or may not describe a noun as of, in, belonging to, coming from, resembling or befitting an indefinite time even up to perpetually; or may or may not describe a noun as of, in, belonging to, coming from, resembling or befitting a definitive time with absolute beginning and end.

NOW THE TRANSLATION


Now we know the logic of an adjective, and now know the definition of the adjective, now we can know what exactly is being said in Matthew 25:46 and other places where AIONIOS has been used.


A famous French theologian, at the end of his life wrote: AIONIOS is "An indeterminate duration of which the maximum is fixed by the intrinsic nature of the persons or things. Or they last ever so long - so long as they last!"  -Pétavel-Olliff, Emmanuel, (1836-1910), The Problem of Immortality.


We must conclude that AIONIOS means simply that, the AIONIOS is an adjective which explains a duration or quality dependent upon the noun it describes. In order to find out the duration or the quality of the noun AIONIOS describes, we need to know definition of the noun.


Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


There are two nouns in this phrase with the adjective AIONIOS preceding them,  they are punishment and life. These words in Greek are, KOLASIS and ZOE.


KOLASIS


What is KOLASIS

(noun)

correction, punishment, penalty


This is the simple one. KOLASIS a punishment for the purpose of correction. It is quite literally a corrective punishment.


How long does it last? It lasts as long as it lasts, until the individual subjected to it, is now corrected. Once correction has been established then KOLASIS ends.


ZOE


What is ZOE

(a noun)

1) life

....a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate

....b) every living soul

2) life

....a) of the absolute fullness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature.

....b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.


Since there are other words used in Scripture to describe the state of one possessing vitality, that is called "BIOS" (good, life, living); and "PSUCHE" (breathe, life, vital force which animates the body of animals and men, living being, living soul, emotions) we must conclude that ZOE represents the second definition: The absolute fullness of life, life which is real and genuine with purpose. It is quite literally a life that belongs to God.


How long does that life last? It lasts as long as it lasts and if it is a life that belongs to God, it most certainly will exist far after we have expired and perished due to our mortality.


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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: question about the aionios controversy
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2009, 07:56:54 PM »
"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) is NOT True to the Greek Language.

By Tony Nungesser and Gary Amirault


The entire concept of eternal or everlasting punishment hinges primarily on a single verse of Scripture--Matthew 25:46. This is the only place in the entire Bible where we find these two words together AND only in some Bibles. There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.

The Greek form for "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is "kolasin aionion." Kolasin is a noun in the accusative form, singular voice, feminine gender and means "punishment, chastening, correction, to cut-off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit." "Aionion" is the adjective form of "aion," in the singular form and means "pertaining to an eon or age, an indeterminate period of time." (Note: the two words in many, not all translations become reversed changing the Greek into English.)

"Aionion," as shown above, is the singular form of the adjective of the Greek noun "aion." Many people unfamiliar with the Greek do not realize that the endings of the same word change (inflection) to indicate its mood, case, gender, etc. Therefore, "aionion" may appear with different endings. "Aionion, aioniou, aionios," for example, are all different inflections of the adjective form of the noun "aion."

The noun "aion" in Greek literature has always meant "an indeterminate period of time. It could be as short as the time Jonah spent in the belly of a fish (three days or nights), the length of a man's life, or as long as a very long age.

The Bible speaks of at least 5 "aions" and perhaps many more. If there were "aions" in the past. This must mean that each one of them have ended for they are now past! The New Testament writers spoke of "the present wicked aion" which ended during that very generation. Obviously, it was followed by another "aion"-- the "aion" in which we presently live. If there are "aions" to come, it must mean that this one we live in will also end.

There is a verse which says "the consummation of the aions" showing that each "aion" ends. So how can they be eternal?

There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)

Plainly, the Greek word "aion" transliterated "eon" cannot mean "eternal." A study into the Greek of the Biblical period and before will bear this out.

"Aionion" is the adjective of the noun "aion."

Since grammar rules mandate an adjective CANNOT take on a greater force than its noun form, it is evident that "aionion" in any of its adjective forms (ios, ou, on) CANNOT possible mean "everlasting" or anything remotely indicating eternity or unending time.

For example, "hourly" cannot mean "pertaining to days, weeks, months, or years. The word MUST mean "pertaining to an hour." Therefore, "aionion," the adjective form of the noun "aion" which clearly means a period of indeterminate TIME, CANNOT mean, "forever and ever, eternal, everlasting, eternity, etc) or other words which connote timelessness or unending ages.

Therefore, those many Bibles which do NOT contain the teaching of everlasting punishment or Hell are true to the original languages of Greek and Hebrew and those which teach everlasting punishment or Hell are false. Scholars are just as easily subjected to the "traditions of the elders" as the rest of us. It's time to let the original Greek and Hebrew languages of the Bible break down the traditions of men. For a list of the many English translations of the Bible that do NOT contain these pagan concepts and for an article explaining why the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does NOT have to be the same length as the life spoken of in that verse, write to us (Tentmaker--118 Walnut--Hermann, MO 65041)
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Offline sven

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Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: question about the aionios controversy
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2009, 08:19:55 PM »
Hi white wings,

ok, I can see how the problem can be handled in Matthew 25:46, but how about other uses of ainion as in "eternal God" (Rom 16:26), "eternal power" (1 Tim 6:16) or "eternal spirit" (Heb 9:14)?

Offline sven

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Re: question about the aionios controversy
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2009, 08:31:44 PM »
Quote
but how about other uses of ainion as in "eternal God" (Rom 16:26),


it are "eternal" times in the same sentence (Romans 16:25) and these times even had an end, so how eternal can passed by times be?  :laughing7:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: question about the aionios controversy
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2009, 08:39:05 PM »
Hi white wings,

ok, I can see how the problem can be handled in Matthew 25:46, but how about other uses of ainion as in "eternal God" (Rom 16:26), "eternal power" (1 Tim 6:16) or "eternal spirit" (Heb 9:14)?

I'm no scholar. Far from it but my take on this.

Rom 16:26:
God created and manages the ages. Therefore He is God of the ages. He also created animals. Therfore is He God of the animals. Does that mean He isn't God of humans? No, because He also created humans.
So God IS eternal. AND he manages the ages. So He is God of the ages, animals, plants, humans, star, everything.
I hope that makes sense....

Heb 9:14
I have no answer for that one. But I'm sure someone does.
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Offline legoman

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Re: question about the aionios controversy
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 12:12:05 AM »
I posted this over at city-data.  IMHO aionios doesn't mean "eternal" or "a limited time period", but only is referring to something that "pertains/relates to ages".  Other people may disagree with this, but this is how I see it:


This is what aionios God means. 

Assume aionios means "pertaining to the ages". Ages are limited. Whatever aionios is describing, it means that thing is pertaining or relating to the ages (which are limited). The thing itself is not necessarily limited.

So: God created the ages. God frames the ages. God is involved with the ages. God even interacts with His creation in the ages. God is the Rock of the ages, He is the God of the ages, and thus can be called the aionios (eonian) God, because He pertains to the ages! When the ages end, does God end? No of course not, aionios God does not imply that. We know God always exists because God is described as "immortal" and "endless" elsewhere.


Consider the phrase "aionios punishment". This is not saying the punishment is limited, although we can assume that with no other info. Its also not saying the punishment is unlimited. It is simply saying that the punishment relates to some specific ages. And the ages will end. So then we come to the same question about punishment as you asked about "eonian God". God doesn't end when the ages end. So how do we know the punishment ends when the ages end? Because no where in the bible is punishment also described as "immortal" or "endless". In fact we are told specifically that God's wrath ends, therefore we know the punishment ends. But the phrase "aionios punishment" does not imply endless or ending, only that it pertains to a limited period of time. With no other info, we can assume the punishment is only in those ages.


Now finally consider the phrase "aionios life". Again it is only pertaining to the ages. Does the life end at the end of the ages? Aionios life implies neither ending nor endless. So we must look elsewhere. And we are specifically told that God makes all alive, death is abolished, and immortality will be given to all so God can be all in all. Therefore we will all be living after the ages end. "aionios life" is not a threat to true eternal life.


Make sense?


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: question about the aionios controversy
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 12:20:03 AM »
I've always considered time as a measured fragment, just a piece of the whole, a temporary structure for our awareness.
And the Alpha and Omega as a circle, or better yet, a sphere!