Author Topic: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET  (Read 206 times)

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Offline Searching_For_The_Truth

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How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« on: July 29, 2015, 02:26:28 AM »
Hello all,

I was just reading an article about Rob Bell, (an ex pastor who got kicked out do to his believe in UR). As you can all imagine, the comments for the article are flooded with anti UR sentiments. Below are some of the popular comments on the article. How would you all respond? The link to the article is also posted below.

Top Comment A:

2 Tim 4
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Comment B:

"God is love…..He is the loving father who loves us BEFORE we choose Him. Our choice of Him through Jesus Christ…opens the path for that love to be two-way communion. As we spend time with Him (we call this prayer)…His very nature lives inside us and begins to transform us from the inside outward as we surrender each part of ourselves to his loving care. That is the transformation and the healing.

Similarly…their is also the possibility that we will NOT choose to receive Him… When we ignore Him….we are not restored/renewed from the inside out… We remain the broken twisted things that follow their nature into increased implosion (death in scripture)… Hell….is a place where those who refuse God's freely given healing love…his abiding presence inside…Hell is the place where they choose to spend eternity… Yes it is punishment…not by a hateful God….but by those who have chosen to be the depraved/debauched monstrosities that occur when the broken debauched nature of unredeemed humans is fully realized…"

Comment C:
"You're attempt to rationalize God's ways is an attempt to place yourself above Him." (he seemed to be responding to another UR supporter).

Comment D:
Sheol is "the grave," and all the dead seemed to go there before Christ. But no torment? Not according to Jesus, and Jesus is the one we need to listen to. He described a Sheol divided by a great chasm, with one side presenting comfort and the the other side giving torment. Whatever it was called, Jesus described torment, gnashing of teeth, weeping, unquenchable fire, destruction. Lake of Fire, burning forever, in Revelation. Hell is absolutely a Biblical teaching.

Comment E:
Sinners talking themselves into Hell is quite common today. To anyone that can READ the Authorized Holy Bible, your entire comment is a joke. In fact, your statements about the Authorized Holy Bible being inaccurate shows you are merely running from the clear teaching of scripture. Hell is not a "Christian concept"; Christ said it was a REALITY (Mark 9:43-48); so did John the apostle (Revelation 14:9-11; 21:8). Only a fool rejects God's plain warnings about His wrath (Romans 1:18) and ignores His judgment upon sinners in the past (Jude 7). Where ever you read the junk you spewed in this forum, it will be in Hell with you unless you repent and trust Christ.

Here is the article
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/28/ex-pastor-who-ignited-evangelical-furor-when-he-questioned-ideas-about-the-afterlife-explains-why-he-doesnt-believe-god-would-burn-people-in-hell-for-eternity/


Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 03:23:39 AM »
Top Comment A:
2 Tim 4
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Laz sez:
Folks don't stop to realize that UR does NOT have a "great number of teachers."  They need to examine themselves. for nowadays are no different from the days of Jesus, when few could see themselves in His parables.  There are gobs of itching ears ready to hear what people such as Mary Baxter has to say.

Comment B:
Similarly…their is also the possibility that we will NOT choose to receive Him… When we ignore Him….we are not restored/renewed from the inside out… We remain the broken twisted things that follow their nature into increased implosion (death in scripture)… Hell….is a place where those who refuse God's freely given healing love…his abiding presence inside…Hell is the place where they choose to spend eternity… Yes it is punishment…not by a hateful God….but by those who have chosen to be the depraved/debauched monstrosities that occur when the broken debauched nature of unredeemed humans is fully realized…

Laz sez:
Every bit of the above is someone's theory.  There is not a shred of Biblical proof.  End.

Comment C:
"You're attempt to rationalize God's ways is an attempt to place yourself above Him." (he seemed to be responding to another UR supporter).

Laz sez:
Oh?  But we don't indulge in outright half-pagan fiction like Dante, or not-quite-so-pagan fiction like Milton or Baxter.

Comment D:
Sheol is "the grave," and all the dead seemed to go there before Christ. But no torment? Not according to Jesus, and Jesus is the one we need to listen to. He described a Sheol divided by a great chasm, with one side presenting comfort and the the other side giving torment. Whatever it was called, Jesus described torment, gnashing of teeth, weeping, unquenchable fire, destruction. Lake of Fire, burning forever, in Revelation. Hell is absolutely a Biblical teaching.

Laz sez:
Yes, sheol is the grave.  But when God made the cosmos (Genesis 1:1) He claims only to have made heaven and earth, not Hell.  Further, John 1:3 states that if God did not, then no one else did either.  The no-Hell theory fits more scriptures than the Hell theory.

Comment E:
Sinners talking themselves into Hell is quite common today. To anyone that can READ the Authorized Holy Bible, your entire comment is a joke. In fact, your statements about the Authorized Holy Bible being inaccurate shows you are merely running from the clear teaching of scripture. Hell is not a "Christian concept"; Christ said it was a REALITY (Mark 9:43-48); so did John the apostle (Revelation 14:9-11; 21:8). Only a fool rejects God's plain warnings about His wrath (Romans 1:18) and ignores His judgment upon sinners in the past (Jude 7). Where ever you read the junk you spewed in this forum, it will be in Hell with you unless you repent and trust Christ.

Laz sez:
Sounds like someone has made the KJV into an idol.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline marie glen

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2015, 06:44:46 AM »
hi! :hiya: I love a good quiz!

Top Comment A:

2 Tim 4
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

 --- first thing comes to my mind is man's theory of evolution which says man is the higher power.. i.e. 'god' among all manner of strange things (teachings and ideas) in the world..

Comment B:

"...Similarly…their is also the possibility that we will NOT choose to receive Him… When we ignore Him….we are not restored/renewed from the inside out… We remain the broken twisted things that follow their nature into increased implosion (death in scripture)… Hell….is a place where those who refuse God's freely given healing love…his abiding presence inside…Hell is the place where they choose to spend eternity… Yes it is punishment…not by a hateful God….but by those who have chosen to be the depraved/debauched monstrosities that occur when the broken debauched nature of unredeemed humans is fully realized…"

--- Hmmm, God sure sounds un-able.
...er, what about all those who never heard the gospel? What if any one of us (believers) had died before (supposedly) 'making the choice for Jesus'? But beyond all that, the Word says "you did not choose Me but I chose you.." ..."foreordained.." etc. "He chooses who He will and hardens whom He will.." And please, show me the verses which say after death no chance for repentance? Only one "you will die in your sins" simply means one will rise still in their sins.. "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD" ..when? during judgment day.. Israel's annual day of national judgment was Day of Atonement, great day of mourning and repentance and forgiveness.. Jubilees were associated with that day..
 - Is God not Perfect? Is He not all powerful? Which of these is He not?

Comment C:
"You're attempt to rationalize God's ways is an attempt to place yourself above Him." (he seemed to be responding to another UR supporter).

--- Strong's concordance is needed..


Comment D:
Sheol is "the grave," and all the dead seemed to go there before Christ. But no torment? Not according to Jesus, and Jesus is the one we need to listen to. He described a Sheol divided by a great chasm, with one side presenting comfort and the the other side giving torment. Whatever it was called, Jesus described torment, gnashing of teeth, weeping, unquenchable fire, destruction. Lake of Fire, burning forever, in Revelation. Hell is absolutely a Biblical teaching.

--- Lazarus and the rich man was a parable and, imo, reflects conditions during (what surely must be?) a very long day (age?) of judgment... the great and small of the 2nd resurrection before God, a review for us all, of all human and angelic history..

Comment E:
Sinners talking themselves into Hell is quite common today. To anyone that can READ the Authorized Holy Bible, your entire comment is a joke. In fact, your statements about the Authorized Holy Bible being inaccurate shows you are merely running from the clear teaching of scripture. Hell is not a "Christian concept"; Christ said it was a REALITY (Mark 9:43-48); so did John the apostle (Revelation 14:9-11; 21:8). Only a fool rejects God's plain warnings about His wrath (Romans 1:18) and ignores His judgment upon sinners in the past (Jude 7). Where ever you read the junk you spewed in this forum, it will be in Hell with you unless you repent and trust Christ.

 --- yeow.. I would explain what gehenna was.. what the lower part of the earth is (the dust of the grave).. angles locked into judgment-being imperfect cannot now change their course but are locked into judgment.. hell ("the grave") is thrown into the lake of fire.. not vice versa.. Judgment in the Old Testament (Jude 7) was always understood to be national judgment.. a fiery 'hell' is a pre Christian belief.. Dante was a madman.. Strike that last one, I might not say that one..

Here is the article
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/28/ex-pastor-who-ignited-evangelical-furor-when-he-questioned-ideas-about-the-afterlife-explains-why-he-doesnt-believe-god-would-burn-people-in-hell-for-eternity/


 --- the title itself.. would God burn people in hell for eternity? puh-lease! :faint:
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 06:51:28 AM by marie glen »
Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to me" ~ Ps 22:27-"All the ends of the earth will turn to the LORD-every knee shall bow-all tongues confess`Jesus is Lord`" ~ iF there's 1000yrs between Trumpets (beginning of the long 2nd advent of Jesus) and DOA/2nd resurrection, then is there 500yrs between DOA and Tabernacles?-"God will now tabernacle w/ man"Rev21. For 500yrs judgment day the HS will convince the world of sin? & at the concLusion of, all those(still) not believing will go to"age-lasting" LOF?
~ If 1st advent fulfilled the Spring Holy Days, 2nd fulfills Fall 1's?

Offline Searching_For_The_Truth

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2015, 06:08:44 AM »
I liked the responses so far. There are a few who quoted the following part from the article.

"We are speculating," he said of definitive discussions surrounding heaven and hell. "No one knows.""

How would you all respond to comments like "Why take that risk if you aren't 100% sure if Hell is not real or eternal?"

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2015, 06:58:11 AM »
How would you all respond to comments like "Why take that risk if you aren't 100% sure if Hell is not real or eternal?"
"So, your religion is merely a fire insurance?"
"Where does the Bible state, believing in Hell is part of salvation"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2015, 03:55:10 PM »
Top Comment A:
2 Tim 4
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Laz sez:
Folks don't stop to realize that UR does NOT have a "great number of teachers."  They need to examine themselves. for nowadays are no different from the days of Jesus, when few could see themselves in His parables.  There are gobs of itching ears ready to hear what people such as Mary Baxter has to say.

Comment B:
Similarly…their is also the possibility that we will NOT choose to receive Him… When we ignore Him….we are not restored/renewed from the inside out… We remain the broken twisted things that follow their nature into increased implosion (death in scripture)… Hell….is a place where those who refuse God's freely given healing love…his abiding presence inside…Hell is the place where they choose to spend eternity… Yes it is punishment…not by a hateful God….but by those who have chosen to be the depraved/debauched monstrosities that occur when the broken debauched nature of unredeemed humans is fully realized…

Laz sez:
Every bit of the above is someone's theory.  There is not a shred of Biblical proof.  End.

Comment C:
"You're attempt to rationalize God's ways is an attempt to place yourself above Him." (he seemed to be responding to another UR supporter).

Laz sez:
Oh?  But we don't indulge in outright half-pagan fiction like Dante, or not-quite-so-pagan fiction like Milton or Baxter.

Comment D:
Sheol is "the grave," and all the dead seemed to go there before Christ. But no torment? Not according to Jesus, and Jesus is the one we need to listen to. He described a Sheol divided by a great chasm, with one side presenting comfort and the the other side giving torment. Whatever it was called, Jesus described torment, gnashing of teeth, weeping, unquenchable fire, destruction. Lake of Fire, burning forever, in Revelation. Hell is absolutely a Biblical teaching.

Laz sez:
Yes, sheol is the grave.  But when God made the cosmos (Genesis 1:1) He claims only to have made heaven and earth, not Hell.  Further, John 1:3 states that if God did not, then no one else did either.  The no-Hell theory fits more scriptures than the Hell theory.

Comment E:
Sinners talking themselves into Hell is quite common today. To anyone that can READ the Authorized Holy Bible, your entire comment is a joke. In fact, your statements about the Authorized Holy Bible being inaccurate shows you are merely running from the clear teaching of scripture. Hell is not a "Christian concept"; Christ said it was a REALITY (Mark 9:43-48); so did John the apostle (Revelation 14:9-11; 21:8). Only a fool rejects God's plain warnings about His wrath (Romans 1:18) and ignores His judgment upon sinners in the past (Jude 7). Where ever you read the junk you spewed in this forum, it will be in Hell with you unless you repent and trust Christ.

Laz sez:
Sounds like someone has made the KJV into an idol.

 :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline bushy

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2015, 09:12:42 PM »
I liked the responses so far. There are a few who quoted the following part from the article.

"We are speculating," he said of definitive discussions surrounding heaven and hell. "No one knows.""

How would you all respond to comments like "Why take that risk if you aren't 100% sure if Hell is not real or eternal?"

They ask such a silly queston because of the belief that we have to save ourselves and believe all the right facts or we're in big trouble. It's like it was nice for Jesus to die for us but it didn't do a dang thing unless we do our part, so what people have is faith in their faith and think that they have been smart enough to understand the basics, with Jesus stirred into the mix.  Ask most people how they know they are 'saved' and the first thing they say is "because I" did this or that.

Offline Searching_For_The_Truth

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #7 on: Today at 01:58:42 AM »
I liked the responses so far. There are a few who quoted the following part from the article.

"We are speculating," he said of definitive discussions surrounding heaven and hell. "No one knows.""

How would you all respond to comments like "Why take that risk if you aren't 100% sure if Hell is not real or eternal?"

They ask such a silly queston because of the belief that we have to save ourselves and believe all the right facts or we're in big trouble. It's like it was nice for Jesus to die for us but it didn't do a dang thing unless we do our part, so what people have is faith in their faith and think that they have been smart enough to understand the basics, with Jesus stirred into the mix.  Ask most people how they know they are 'saved' and the first thing they say is "because I" did this or that.

Most would say their salvation is assured because they accepted Lord Jesus as Savior and turned away from their sins.

Offline Searching_For_The_Truth

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #8 on: Today at 02:04:46 AM »
Here's a somewhat unique argument in support of ET that I read somewhere else online. Below is a paraphrased version of the argument:

"Eternal torment is a necessary part of God's love because it shows that the lives of the wicked mattered. The everlasting fire is proof that the wicked did not exist for nothing. Most of the wicked believe when they die they just sleep forever. This is God's way of showing that he cares for them and will hold them accountable for their deeds."

What are your thoughts?

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #9 on: Today at 02:10:49 AM »
Here's a somewhat unique argument in support of ET that I read somewhere else online. Below is a paraphrased version of the argument:

"Eternal torment is a necessary part of God's love because it shows that the lives of the wicked mattered. The everlasting fire is proof that the wicked did not exist for nothing. Most of the wicked believe when they die they just sleep forever. This is God's way of showing that he cares for them and will hold them accountable for their deeds."

What are your thoughts?

Take a person serving a life sentence matter in society, as opposed to someone who undergoes and is successfully rehabilitated and reintroduced back into society. Which one's life is shown to matter? Which shows that they are cared for and yet held accountable for their deeds? I think most arguments fall short when they are truly taken to their logical conclusion.

Ronen

Offline jabcat

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #10 on: Today at 03:22:21 AM »

Most would say their salvation is assured because they accepted Lord Jesus as Savior

I think the ones that say that have gotten that part right :)

John 1:12  Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline joeteekay

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #11 on: Today at 03:35:36 AM »
Here's a somewhat unique argument in support of ET that I read somewhere else online. Below is a paraphrased version of the argument:

"Eternal torment is a necessary part of God's love because it shows that the lives of the wicked mattered. The everlasting fire is proof that the wicked did not exist for nothing. Most of the wicked believe when they die they just sleep forever. This is God's way of showing that he cares for them and will hold them accountable for their deeds."

What are your thoughts?

Hi,
Seems to me that if ET is sleep there is no eternal horrible torment for ever. After all sleep is sweet. I suspect the idea is better expressed by the idea of annihilation. Which also is a false doctrine. I have lived through both the ET and annihilation beliefs. Annihilation seemed so much more "JUST" than ET. Is not God's purpose to save all humanity as many scriptures validate?
3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Offline marie glen

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Re: How to respond to the following arguments in support of ET
« Reply #12 on: Today at 06:05:01 AM »
Here's a somewhat unique argument in support of ET that I read somewhere else online. Below is a paraphrased version of the argument:

"Eternal torment is a necessary part of God's love because it shows that the lives of the wicked mattered. The everlasting fire is proof that the wicked did not exist for nothing. Most of the wicked believe when they die they just sleep forever. This is God's way of showing that he cares for them and will hold them accountable for their deeds."

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that's a real knee slapper! :LH: :doh: Not a lotta logic...  :faint:

God our Father can only be perfect. Therefor the 'end' result can onLy be the (utterly) best one possible. Imo. :smile:
Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to me" ~ Ps 22:27-"All the ends of the earth will turn to the LORD-every knee shall bow-all tongues confess`Jesus is Lord`" ~ iF there's 1000yrs between Trumpets (beginning of the long 2nd advent of Jesus) and DOA/2nd resurrection, then is there 500yrs between DOA and Tabernacles?-"God will now tabernacle w/ man"Rev21. For 500yrs judgment day the HS will convince the world of sin? & at the concLusion of, all those(still) not believing will go to"age-lasting" LOF?
~ If 1st advent fulfilled the Spring Holy Days, 2nd fulfills Fall 1's?