Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

I just noticed this topic is under arguments against universal reconciliation.

Not sure why that is.

Just for the record:  I'm arguing for the trinity, not against UR.

The two aren't even related as far as I can see.

[eaglesway]

King David knew Jesus and the Holy Spirit:


1 These are the last words of David:


"David, the son of Jesse, speaks—
    David, the man who was raised up so high,
David, the man anointed by the God of Jacob,
    David, the sweet psalmist of Israel.


2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;

    his words are upon my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke.
    The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:

'The one who rules righteously,
    who rules in the fear of God,
4 is like the light of morning at sunrise,
    like a morning without clouds,
like the gleaming of the sun
    on new grass after rain.'
--2 Sam 23





The trinity

 1 Peter 1:2   who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father  [ONE], through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [TWO], for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [THREE]: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

\\

I dont think anyone here would argue against David, the prophet, foreseeing Messiah. This however has NOTHING to do with the Trinity. That there is the Father I think we all agree. That there is Jesus, I think we all agree, That there is the Holy Spirit-also identifeid in scripture as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ- I think mostly all agree. The above scripture could be used as a proof txt for that.

WHETHER OR NOT THIS PROVES THE ORTHODOX TRINITY DOCTRINE, that THEY ARE thREE SEPERATE PERSONS AND AT THE SAME TIME ONE PERSON CO_EQUAL< CO_ETERNAL_ CO-SUbSTANTIAL,

This is an area about which the scripture shows us through a glass darkly, with room for various understandings.

[ded2daworld]

Molly said, "Just for the record:  I'm arguing for the trinity, not against UR."

Why argue at all? Why do we all seem to have this need to be right? IMO, someone else's spiritual development, knowledge and walk with God is not up to us or anything that we say.

[Molly]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


THE NEW COVENANT


25Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36


Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.



Joel 2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.


Only Then--



14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.



15 For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!



16 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.



17 And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.



--Rom 8





God speaks to God, because only the Spirit of God can understand the things of God.



1  Cor 2:14

14 But people who don't have the Spirit can't receive these truths from the Spirit of God. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.

[Molly]

Molly said, "Just for the record:  I'm arguing for the trinity, not against UR."

Why argue at all? Why do we all seem to have this need to be right? IMO, someone else's spiritual development, knowledge and walk with God is not up to us or anything that we say.

I used the word 'arguing' because the title of this thread is 'arguments against...'

I just wanted to make it clear I am not arguing against UR.

What I write is not my opinion, it is what I believe.  I am witnessing to my beliefs.

There's a difference between opinion and belief.  I have no power over anybody else and what they believe.  I have no power to require them to conform to my beliefs.

I am just sharing what I believe.  I can tell you why I disagree with someone over something.  And, I can show you evidence.  But, I can't do much more than that.

But, we're not discussing a new movie in here or a new best selling book.  We are sharing what we believe and what we know to be true.

Even if we are all wrong.

[Molly]

King David knew Jesus and the Holy Spirit:


1 These are the last words of David:


"David, the son of Jesse, speaks—
    David, the man who was raised up so high,
David, the man anointed by the God of Jacob,
    David, the sweet psalmist of Israel.


2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;

    his words are upon my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke.
    The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:

'The one who rules righteously,
    who rules in the fear of God,
4 is like the light of morning at sunrise,
    like a morning without clouds,
like the gleaming of the sun
    on new grass after rain.'
--2 Sam 23





The trinity

 1 Peter 1:2   who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father  [ONE], through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [TWO], for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [THREE]: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

\\

I dont think anyone here would argue against David, the prophet, foreseeing Messiah. This however has NOTHING to do with the Trinity. That there is the Father I think we all agree. That there is Jesus, I think we all agree, That there is the Holy Spirit-also identifeid in scripture as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ- I think mostly all agree. The above scripture could be used as a proof txt for that.

WHETHER OR NOT THIS PROVES THE ORTHODOX TRINITY DOCTRINE, that THEY ARE thREE SEPERATE PERSONS AND AT THE SAME TIME ONE PERSON CO_EQUAL< CO_ETERNAL_ CO-SUbSTANTIAL,

This is an area about which the scripture shows us through a glass darkly, with room for various understandings.

I'm  showing you 43 pages of data points.  King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue.  He is saying Jesus [whom he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him.  This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.

This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.


2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;

    his words are upon my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke.

    The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:

[redhotmagma]

I'm  showing you 43 pages of data points.  King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue.  He is saying Jesus [who he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him.  This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.

This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.


2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;

    his words are upon my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke.

    The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:

Molly this is a perfect example of a generalization about your posts I am going to make.  You see this as a proof for the trinity.  This very same verse will be used by a modalist and a unitarian, or binitarian for that matter to promote their viewpoint.  This verse could very well be saying that "the Rock" and "the Spirit" are the same.  Many of the verses you've posted are this way.  I haven't had time to answer each one, because as you've just said you've posted 43 pages.  I just don't have the time to go through and do it.  My point is you see these as trinity verses.  Many don't, thats ok.  But just a few posts ago you posted about scoffers denying the dunamis= people not believing the HS is a person.  That does not compute.  NObody is denying a Holy Spirit.  Or the power thereof.  Some are denying that the HS is a person, myself included, but that does NOT equal denying the HS.  Please refrain from making these implications as this is the second or third time that you've done so.  The other notable one was the JW label. 

[micah7:9]

"If so, how are we to know when and where to use it?  Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?
How do we know what to do with it?  Are we to be like Luke Skywalker, using 'the force' at our own discretion?   Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose?  Does this power come with a handbook in its use?" Molly Post 424

"If so, how are we to know when and where to use it?"       WE are not in charge of "it"...."it charges us.
" Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?"           It's not "handed" out, it is given from above to be used for the Lord's Will.
"How do we know what to do with it?"            Again it is not up to us. Mar 13:11  `And when they may lead you, delivering up, be not anxious beforehand what ye may speak, nor premeditate, but whatever may be given to you in that hour, that speak ye, for it is not ye who are speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

" Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose? "
 Heb 5:12  for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food,
Heb 5:13  for every one who is partaking of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness--for he is an infant,
Heb 5:14  and of perfect men is the strong food, who because of the use are having the senses exercised, unto the discernment both of good and of evil.

"Does this power come with a handbook in its use?"        2Co 3:3  For all can see that you are a letter of Christ entrusted to our care, and written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the ever-living God--and not on tablets of stone, but on human hearts as tablets. 

[micah7:9]

I'm  showing you 43 pages of data points.  King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue.  He is saying Jesus [who he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him.  This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.

This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.


2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;

    his words are upon my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke.

    The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:

Molly this is a perfect example of a generalization about your posts I am going to make.  You see this as a proof for the trinity.  This very same verse will be used by a modalist and a unitarian, or binitarian for that matter to promote their viewpoint.  This verse could very well be saying that "the Rock" and "the Spirit" are the same.  Many of the verses you've posted are this way.  I haven't had time to answer each one, because as you've just said you've posted 43 pages.  I just don't have the time to go through and do it.  My point is you see these as trinity verses.  Many don't, thats ok.  But just a few posts ago you posted about scoffers denying the dunamis= people not believing the HS is a person.  That does not compute.  NObody is denying a Holy Spirit.  Or the power thereof.  Some are denying that the HS is a person, myself included, but that does NOT equal denying the HS.  Please refrain from making these implications as this is the second or third time that you've done so.  The other notable one was the JW label.

 

[Molly]

I'm  showing you 43 pages of data points.  King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue.  He is saying Jesus [who he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him.  This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.

This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.


2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;

    his words are upon my tongue.

3 The God of Israel spoke.

    The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:

Molly this is a perfect example of a generalization about your posts I am going to make.  You see this as a proof for the trinity.  This very same verse will be used by a modalist and a unitarian, or binitarian for that matter to promote their viewpoint.  This verse could very well be saying that "the Rock" and "the Spirit" are the same.  Many of the verses you've posted are this way.  I haven't had time to answer each one, because as you've just said you've posted 43 pages.  I just don't have the time to go through and do it.  My point is you see these as trinity verses.  Many don't, thats ok.  But just a few posts ago you posted about scoffers denying the dunamis= people not believing the HS is a person.  That does not compute.  NObody is denying a Holy Spirit.  Or the power thereof.  Some are denying that the HS is a person, myself included, but that does NOT equal denying the HS.  Please refrain from making these implications as this is the second or third time that you've done so.  The other notable one was the JW label.

No no no.  That post you are referring to was mostly scripture, and it was not talking about people denying the Holy Spirit.  It was talking about denying the power of God which is imparted through the Holy Spirit and that this power will be denied by some in the latter days.   The Bible is saying this, not me. It was not meant to criticize anyone or accuse anyone of denying the Holy Spirit.  It did not even say that.  It was to draw attention to what the Bible says about the power imparted to Christians by and through the Holy Spirit.  It is the Bible that says this power will be denied, not me.

The denial part was not even the main focus of the post.  The main focus of the post was dunamis [dynamite] imparted to us by the HS.  Why don't you talk about that?

I made no such implication as you are describing.  Nor did I intend to make any such implication.  I said very little myself in that post and actually could have said nothing at all, just posted the scripture.  Forget what I say and just read the scripture.  If you want to decide that King David is talking about one person in that scripture, that's fine with me.  They are one, that's the whole point.  But he's describing two different functions.   The Spirit is giving him words to speak.  And, the Rock is speaking to him.

[eaglesway]

Actually Davib may have been using a standard form of Hebrew literary expression, reinforcing the meaning by doubling it.

The God of Israel.........the Rock of Israel     Certainly YHWH is the rock of Israel as well.

Molly you routinely insert meanings into scriptures as if they are the only way to see them when many of them are proof texts for those who are disagreeing with you but just see it a different way. There are many scriptures you dont include in the context of the discussion that also add to, and for others, change the picture for them.

To suggest that because someone does not accept the Trinity means they do not accept the power of the Holy Spirit is a similar kind of thing. I do not believe in the trinity. I have seen the power of the Holy Spirit move throughout my whole life(I am 59 and was filled with the Spirit at 24) I have seen healing and restoration, deliverance and revelation- among many people who are not trinitarians.

The 43 pages of YOUR INTERPRETATIONS of data points are organized and understood in some different ways by others.

The Trinity doctrine is not a key to overcoming in these last days- a deep intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Spirit is, IMO and I know both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians who are walking in the Spirit and the Word and seeking Him with their whole hearts.

[Molly]

To suggest that because someone does not accept the Trinity means they do not accept the power of the Holy Spirit is a similar kind of thing.

Where did I suggest that?  Quote me.

The Trinity doctrine is not a key to overcoming in these last days

Where did I say that?  Quote me.


This study has greatly blessed me.  I hope it has been a blessing to someone else out of the 11,000 hits this thread has had.

[redhotmagma]

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof....


--2 Timothy 3:5



Paul warned us that in the last days we would see godly people who deny the power of God.


What did he mean by that?


What is it exactly that these men are denying?



For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.   1 cor 4:20




"power"


G1411

δύναμις

dunamis

doo'-nam-is

From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.



Dunamis--it's the word dynamite comes from, a force so powerful that it is explosive.

This, then IMO, is the power we are not to deny.


This [dunamis] power of God IMO, is the work of the Holy Spirit.


But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."  Acts 1:8



Is this power of God just an impersonal force?  If so, how are we to know when and where to use it?  Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?


How do we know what to do with it?  Are we to be like Luke Skywalker, using 'the force' at our own discretion?   Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose?  Does this power come with a handbook in its use?


What does Jesus say?


But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

--John 14:26

Molly here is the post in question.  I have a hard time seeing how you aren't implying what I've stated.  You compare and contrast HS as person and force right after the denying the power thereof.  Maybe you were just short on time and lumped these 3 sections together.  But to an observer you have given one concrete statement. 

[Molly]

I just don't know what else to say. 

The post is about the power of God that we are given and how do we know how to use it.

And, Jesus says--the Holy Spirit--he will teach you how to use it.

[eaglesway]

Actually Ded, this for me has nothing to do with being right. I have said several times in this thread, it doesnt matter to me if someone see the Trinitarian view or any of the other views as correct. The only essential thing a person needs to believe about Jesus, IMO, is that He is the Only Begotten of the Father and He died as a sacrifice for sin, was raised from the dead, and lives as Lord.

Anything more than that, made essential by a Trinitarian or a Modalist or a Binitarian or a Biblical Untiarian, is a violation of the priesthood of the believer- the Holy Spirit is our teacher- not man, and certainly not the men of the Nicean Convention.

This discussion for me is about three things. 1)It is about the freedom to understand something in different ways and still maintain a spirit of fellowship and mutual respect as disciples of Jesus  2)It is about requiring that statements made as fact be required to stand the test of the word in the whole topical context 3) and it is about ensuring that members and prospective members of the site who hav divergent views can see that their is an open forum for the discussion of their divergent views and that no one will dictate to them or evaluate them as difficient in Christ because they don't agree with a particular view on some non-essential doctrine. Especially IMO one such as the nature of the Godhead which I believe, God has purposely left shrouded in mystery.

Those 3 things are important to a disciples walk with God and their growth in the Body of Christ and in relationship to the whole Tabernacle of God- at least I think so.

The way in which we discuss our differences testifies to our maturity- or lack thereof ;o).

The servant of the Lord should not strive.....

The wisdom that is from abve is first pure, then peacable, then easily entreated....


As I said earlier- whether it is the Trinity or Modalism or the Law or Predestination or Free will.... the measure we get all up in arms when someone presents an opposing view to ours.... that is the measure of how much religion is working in us, as opposed to the work of the Spirit of truth, who is not upset or overly wrought up about Himself or how exactly we have Him defined, analyzed, and presented 

He really just wants us to learn His ways and walk in one mind and one accord(the key t the release of His power)

For that to happen, doctrines like the Trinity need to take a lower place in relationship to the doctrine Jesus taught, "Love one another, that your joy may be full"  :o)

[dajomaco]

Since coming to tent makers I personally have had a hard time distinguishing
the difference between a debate and a discussion.
I know see the importance of moderation and moderators.
I see now that I can with the Spirit, be passionate and a moderator.
I thought moderation was the opposite of passion.

[eaglesway]

Yes Daj..... I would say passion shows how intensely we feel, while moderation shows how deeply we love those who disagree with what we feel :o)

[Molly]

15 And also the Holy Spirit adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]. For having said,

16 This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),

17 He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.

--Heb 10 Amplified Bible

[Molly]

Can an 'it' be a second witness?  Heb 10:15


New International Version (©2011)
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

New Living Translation (©2007)
And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says,

English Standard Version (©2001)
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says:

International Standard Version (©2012)
The Holy Spirit also assures us of this, for he said:

NET Bible (©2006)
And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But The Spirit of Holiness also testifies to us, who says:

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Holy Spirit tells us the same thing:

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after this he had said before,

American King James Version
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

American Standard Version
And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Holy Ghost also doth testify this to us. For after that he said:

Darby Bible Translation
And the Holy Spirit also bears us witness of it; for after what was said:

English Revised Version
And the Holy Ghost also beareth witness to us: for after he hath said,

Webster's Bible Translation
Of this the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Weymouth New Testament
And the Holy Spirit also gives us His testimony; for when He had said,

World English Bible
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after saying,

Young's Literal Translation
 and testify to us also doth the Holy Spirit, for after that He hath said before

[redhotmagma]

The scriptures testify, the water and the blood testify, the stars are a witness. 

[Molly]

But the Holy Spirit is called 'he' in just about every one of those Bibles.

As well as 'Lord,' and 'I'.  The Holy Spirit is speaking in the first person as God.

The water and stars  don't do that.

[redhotmagma]

In the above verse there is no word for he in the greek it is inserted.  In many other places the word also can be it.  It may be a person, the question is, is it a separate person from God the Father that is co-equal etc. etc.