Author Topic: Proof that Christian Universalism is the most logical form of Christianity  (Read 2245 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Most Universalist probably can logically see why Universal Salvation is the most logical belief over traditionalism or annihilationism. 

Why Universalism is the most logical
1. It fits the best with the themes of the old and new testament.
2. Punishment is temporary, and meant to reform a sinner.
3. No sin on earth by anyone could possibly equal unending and unimaginable sufferings too horrible to comprehend.
4. eternal punishment is not just and is nothing but revenge.
5. Salvation would be disturbing if just one soul were in horrible sufferings, but the churches teach that most people go to hell.  A place housing most of humanity in horrible suffering would be a very disgusting universe.  Yet as we know, our world is not so terrible.

Yet many people say that Universalism is illogical.  Now those justifications did not make any sense to me, but the difficulty is how do we know that Universalism is the most reasonable faith and not just some wish?
How do we know that Eternal Punishment is just a sick fantasy of the carnal mind.  The ET claim that Universalism is just a way to deny unending punishment, because it is too scary for us. 

Offline WhiteWings

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How do we know that Eternal Punishment is just a sick fantasy of the carnal mind.
We can't be 100% sure of anything. But that said consider this: Would a god that doesn't care about ET send his son for really no purpose. A son that acts more like a weak slave than a powerful god. a son asking for forgiveness until the end. And shortly after he dies he returns to his old habit of torturing souls in hell.

ETs usually quote from the NT.
But imo the OT gives much stronger support for their case. Lots of war, death and famine in the OT. Showing Father can have real anger.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Mr.Irrelevant

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IF we accept that God is:

All-knowing
All-powerful
Good to all
and Creator of all

THEN it is logically impossible to accept that God would create someone that He knew in advance would be tortured forever.

Offline WhiteWings

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True.
But that's "refuted" with things like:
- A sin against an infinite God requires infinite punishment.
- God can't tolerate sinners in heaven. => conveniently forgetting all people in heaven have been sinners once.
- ...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Universalist Catholic

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- A sin against an infinite God requires infinite punishment.
Sounds more like our modern ideal of compensation.  If you were playing baseball, and hit someone, it would only be fair to help pay for their medical bills.  Yes it does require a little bit of sacrifice. 
Plus lets look at this comparison.  A mouse bites you, so you spend about 70-90 years burning a mouse over a fire till it dies.  That does not sound like justice, that is pure cruelty.  For what? A little mouse bite that is only going to heal, and is not going to last for a lifetime. 

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- God can't tolerate sinners in heaven. => conveniently forgetting all people in heaven have been sinners once.
Thats true, thats why the sin is burned up, not the sinner.

Offline WhiteWings

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Plus lets look at this comparison.  A mouse bites you, so you spend about 70-90 years burning a mouse over a fire till it dies.  That does not sound like justice, that is pure cruelty.  For what? A little mouse bite that is only going to heal, and is not going to last for a lifetime.
Yeah it likely only hurts for 1 day.
But unfortunately....
KJV2Pe 3:8 that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Mr.Irrelevant

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True.
But that's "refuted" with things like:
- A sin against an infinite God requires infinite punishment.
- God can't tolerate sinners in heaven. => conveniently forgetting all people in heaven have been sinners once.
- ...
Speaking only for myself, I was never able to refute the logic.  Even those points you make aren't refutations, but only changing the subject.

I always justified my belief in eternal torment by saying, "it doesn't matter what my faulty human logic comes up with, it matters what the bible says."  Imagine my joy when the Lord revealed to me that the Bible didn't say what I thought it said!

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Why it seems more logical:
1.  If Calvinism were true, I dont think that I would want to go to Heaven, considering it would not sound very loving.  All it would be is a place with some sociopathic God who created most people with no purpose except to be in some horrible place, not to mention the only saved people would have to be awful selfish.  Personally speaking, in order to be a calvinist and okay with that teaching, you would have to be pretty selfish.  So hell would sound a lot more loving and way less selfish. 

2. If Arminianism were true, then that would not make God very powerful.  If we were powerful enough to resist Gods will, we would also be powerful enough to turn hell into a utopian society.  People have done it before without Organized Religion.

3. Once Saved Always Saved-according to the popular creed, it means that once one is saved, they are no longer capable of sin, or a free pass to sin.  Televangelists like Pat Robertson who ask people to send him money to pray for the souls in Haiti is actually part of Gods will because PR is "Saved".  In another instance, "Once saved always saved" gives you a freepass to sin.  No payment for all the autrocities I am going to commit, no need to reform, because Im right with the Lord.  But every non-saved is going to face unending wrath for not being born again.  That sounds like some pretty messed up justice based on the "all or nothing" philosophy.

4. Faith Alone-preached in many Catholic and Protestant churches today.  I have faith in Jesus, but I sin all the time, but that dont matter, im saved.  Those who were not Christians are screwed eternally just for not being in the right religion.

5. If Heaven were exclusive only to the self proclaimed born again Christians, then heaven would be one dull place.  The Born again Christian life is way too many rules, and pretty much sees anything fun as a sin. 

6. Mortal Sin-According to Catholic theology, if one commits mortal sin, which pretty much is every single little sin.  So according to that form of theology, you are at the beach one day, and see some girls in bikinis, and you have a dirty thought.  A wave comes from the ocean and kills you.  You go to hell.  Why? because you just happened to have committed the sin at the wrong time, and never went through the priest.  Too bad so sad. 

7.  Universalism-based on the principal that God has the full power and love to save everyone, but the catch is there is going to be chastisement for everyone based on their sins.  No more no less.  A hindu maybe required to leave behind any faulty beliefs and learn about Jesus, while a Hardcore fundamentalist may have the most trouble, having to learn to love their enemies, and humble themselves big time. 

8.  Its the only form of Christianity that seems exactly consistent with the bible.  All the other Christian beliefs all require you to (a.) Ignore all scriptures that speak of universal Salvation and (b.) ignore all scriptures that contradict your beliefs.  It is the only Christian belief system that can tie Mercy and Judgment together with Love.  None of that Justice and Love are two separate things.  It reduces all biblical complications, and is the only belief system that accepts the scriptures without needing to twist other scriptures.

Offline WhiteWings

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Why it seems more logical:
1. Personally speaking, in order to be a calvinist and okay with that teaching, you would have to be pretty selfish.
Some are. Most are way beyond selfish I think. They truely believe it's a great way to handle things.

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2. If Arminianism were true, then that would not make God very powerful.  If we were powerful enough to resist Gods will, we would also be powerful enough to turn hell into a utopian society.  People have done it before without Organized Religion.
But that was in a less hot climate :winkgrin:

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3. Once Saved Always Saved-according to the popular creed, it means that once one is saved, they are no longer capable of sin, or a free pass to sin.  Televangelists like Pat Robertson who ask people to send him money to pray for the souls in Haiti is actually part of Gods will because PR is "Saved".
In Pat's case I would rephrase that in "has $aved..."

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In another instance, "Once saved always saved" gives you a freepass to sin.
I heared another variation. If you sinned that's proof you were not in the "allways saved" group.

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5. If Heaven were exclusive only to the self proclaimed born again Christians, then heaven would be one dull place.  The Born again Christian life is way too many rules, and pretty much sees anything fun as a sin.
Except torture ofcourse. That's just a type of love.

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6. Mortal Sin-According to Catholic theology, if one commits mortal sin, which pretty much is every single little sin.  So according to that form of theology, you are at the beach one day, and see some girls in bikinis, and you have a dirty thought.  A wave comes from the ocean and kills you.  You go to hell.  Why? because you just happened to have committed the sin at the wrong time, and never went through the priest.  Too bad so sad.
Then you only hope is someone pays a priest to pray you out of hell...

Point 7 & 8  :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Universalism also fits the very laws of nature in a way that Hell cannot. 

1.  For every problem, there is a solution.  We are constantly finding ways to cure and treat diseases and disorders.  We have created transportation making traveling and globalization much easier.  We have found ways to create sturdier buildings.  We have found ways to better educate people.  For a solution to clean off our sins, we have remedial judgment, for a solution to defeat death, we have Jesus sacrifice.  Eternal Torment is not a solution, and annihilation is a partial solution. 

2.  No sin committed have unending effects.  You steal a candy bar one time, naturally you make the family disappointed, the store doesnt trust you, the store then has some economic issues.  As bad as the holocaust was, it does not have the profound effects that it did 70 years ago.  As the laws of nature indicate, nothing evil can have everlasting effects, however several of the good things from as early as the first civilizations still have a profound effect on our life.  We are no longer effected by the black plague any more, but the invention of the printing press still has a profound effect on society today.  Even the mosaic law proved that every misdeed would fade away after atonement was made.  Therefore no sin can last forever making Judgment only temporary and its consequences temporary.

3.  Any organism living in a harsh environment will either die or will adapt making the environment less harsh.  However the the teaching of hell says that we just live in a harsh and painful environment forever without dying or adapting to the natural surroundings.