Author Topic: Perseverance of the Saints  (Read 4470 times)

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2009, 08:31:25 PM »
 :cloud9: I second that Amen..... :thumbsup:

For me, it's as simple as this; God planted a seed in all of us (He gives all men a measure of faith to receive Him, this is faith from the Spirit of God), some don't realize it, just like we didn't for a season, but it was there all along. Some may not realize it until the death of the body, but that doesn't affect the seed that was planted. We are all the garden of the Lord, and the tending of it is ultimately His business. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

bobf

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2009, 11:58:09 PM »
I'll admit this list of translations of these verses is not every translation available, but is certainly massive, and many of these translators didn't merely know these languages, but were gifted with languages.

Proving that aionion shame does not mean everlasting shame and aionion wastes does not mean everlasting wastes according to all these translators.  But somehow aionion punishment does mean everlasting punishment.  See the problem?


Offline jabcat

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2009, 12:16:29 AM »
I'll admit this list of translations of these verses is not every translation available, but is certainly massive, and many of these translators didn't merely know these languages, but were gifted with languages.

Proving that aionion shame does not mean everlasting shame and aionion wastes does not mean everlasting wastes according to all these translators.  But somehow aionion punishment does mean everlasting punishment.  See the problem?

Thanks Bob for saying in 30 words what it took me 100 to finally, almost, say that same thing  :laughing7: :thumbsup:
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

bobf

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2009, 02:15:06 AM »
I'll admit this list of translations of these verses is not every translation available, but is certainly massive, and many of these translators didn't merely know these languages, but were gifted with languages.

Proving that aionion shame does not mean everlasting shame and aionion wastes does not mean everlasting wastes according to all these translators.  But somehow aionion punishment does mean everlasting punishment.  See the problem?

Thanks Bob for saying in 30 words what it took me 100 to finally, almost, say that same thing  :laughing7: :thumbsup:

LOL.  Don't feel bad, that was my third version of saying it.  My first two were longer than yours.  ;)

bobf

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2009, 07:09:27 PM »
There are not 2 salvations mentioned in the scriptures.

This assertion of your's is also untrue.

Who or what is the Holy City coming down from God in Revelation 21?  It is the bride of Christ.

  • Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

  • Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

So conclusively, the Holy City consists of saved people.  Also notice that when the Holy City descends from heaven, the wrath of God has already been poured out ("which HAD the seven vials...").

And outside the city are UNSAVED people.

  • Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So the Holy City constitutes salvation #1.  According to you there are NO MORE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then why does the Holy City, the bride of Christ, say this:

  • Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And why do the gates of the city remain open?  To bring something into the city.  What?

  • Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Isaiah 60 shows what it means for the glory and honor of the Gentiles to be brought into the city.  It means people are being saved.

First I want jump ahead to show that all the "thees" and "thys" in Isaiah 60 refer to the Holy City, the bride of Christ.

  • Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

The bride of Christ shines as a light:

  • Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

The rest of the earth sits in gross darkeness:

  • Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Spiritual Gentiles come to the light of the City (spiritual Jews).

  • Isaiah 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

They are converted.  Saved.

  • Isaiah 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

They bring praises for the LORD.

  • Isaiah 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.

They come with acceptance.

  • Isaiah 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.

They build up the walls of the Holy City.  Those within the city had experienced BOTH the wrath of God and His mercy.

  • Isaiah 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

And that is why the gates of the Holy City remain open night and day.  To bring those in darkness outside the city to the light of the city and into the city.  The saved bride of Christ usher in the unsaved outside the city.

  • Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought

Those outside the city must follow Christ as the bride of Christ follows Christ to enter.  If the continue in sin they languish outside the city.

  • Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One more proof.

Here is the two groups of salvation stated succinctly by Christ.  Jesus is teaching about two kinds of people.  One said "no" to Christ but then obeys.  The second said "yes" to Christ but then disobeys.  The former enters the kingdom of God BEFORE the latter.

  • Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Is Christ careless with His words?  No.  If Christed wanted to say they enter and you phariesses never enter, He would have said so.   Christ meant what He said.  The publicans and sinners who repented precede the pharisees into the kingdom of God. 

If you doubt what the words GO...BEFORE... mean, do your own word study (it's one greek word translated "go...before").  It means to precede or lead forth as in leading forth from prison.

The repentant publicans and sinners are the bride of Christ, the Holy City, serving as light to those who said "yes" but did not go.  They judge the pharisees and lead them into the kingdom of God.

They reign with Christ to bring the enemies of Christ under His feet until God is all in all.

Three orders:
1. Christ the firstfruits
2. Those who are Christ's at His coming
3. All enemies subjected to Christ

All dead in Adam, all made alive in Christ.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 07:21:24 PM by bobf »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2009, 07:56:40 PM »
bob

 :high5: :happyclap:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...