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arcticmonster2003

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Perseverance of the Saints
« on: February 23, 2009, 02:32:53 AM »
This is an excellent teaching by John Wesley. Its purpose is to dispute the once saved, always saved doctrine. However since universalsim says everyone is saved, I think it applies nicely as a general argument against universalism. This is some really great reading and I hope you will take the time and read it. I will use 3 posts to post it:

Perseverance Of The Saints
By John Wesley

The most exhaustive refutation to the teaching
of eternal security ever written.

John Wesley (1703-1791) was an English clergyman and founder of Methodism. At the age of 13 he went to the Charterhouse in London where he gained his foundation in the ancient languages of Greek, Hebrew and Latin which he applied to his study of the Holy Scriptures all the rest of his life. At the age of 21, he received his college degree from Oxford, and after receiving his master's degree, he assisted his father at Epworth.

He had been excluded from the pulpits of many parish churches because his preaching disturbed the complacency of the congregations. So he began preaching in the open air, and the common people came by the thousands to hear his message that God wanted to save them. Their revival campaign flowed over the borders of England into Scotland, Ireland and America. The novel nature of the work laid Wesley and his preachers open to suspicion as enemies of the church and of the king. They were repeatedly attacked by mobs, but faced them with quiet courage.

It is estimated that he traveled 225,000 miles, mostly on horseback over execrable roads in all kinds of weather, and preached 40,000 times. The first sermon of the day was usually at 5:00 a.m. The mobs that previously attacked him were transformed into admiring crowds. He left behind him at his death about 75,000 members, a figure which continued to expand rapidly after his death. The number of works he wrote, translated or edited exceeds 200. He also wrote the hymn, "Jesus Thy Blood and Righteousness."

The following is reprinted from Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology, A. M. Hills (C. J. Kinne), 1931, Vol. II, pp. 266-281 (bold emphasis ours; punctuation errors theirs).

On this subject we shall use a somewhat modified argument of John Wesley, which is unanswerable, and further supplement it by arguments of our own.

"A short, plain treatise on this subject," said Wesley, "is what serious men have long desired, and what is here offered to those whom God has endowed with love and meekness of wisdom.

By the saints I mean those who are holy, or righteous in the judgment of God Himself; those who are endowed with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience; those who are grafted into the good Olive tree, the Spiritual, invisible church; those who are branches of the true vine, of whom Christ says, "I am the vine; ye are the branches"; those who so effectually know Christ, as by that knowledge to have escaped the pollutions of the world; those who see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost, of the witness and fruit of the Spirit; those who live by faith in the Son of God; those who are sanctified by the blood of the Covenant; those to whom all or any of these characters belong. I mean by the term saints." Now if these people may not be called saints, then there are no such beings on the earth. If Mr. Wesley can show that such people may fall away fatally, then he has won his case against the doctrine of Calvinism. "Once in grace, always in grace."

Mr. Wesley continues: "By falling away we mean, not barely falling into sin. This, it is granted, they may. But can they fall totally? Can any of these so fall from God as to perish everlastingly? I am sensible either side of this question is attended with great difficulties, such as reason alone could never remove. Therefore, "to the law and the testimony." Let the living oracles decide; and if these speak for us, we neither seek nor want further witness.

On this authority I believe a saint may fall away; that one who is holy or righteous in the judgment of God Himself may never-the-less so fall from God as to perish everlastingly.

I. For thus saith the Lord: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity; in his trespass that he hath trespassed and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die" (Ezek. 18:24). That this is to be understood of eternal death appears from the 26th verse: "When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; (here is temporal death), for his iniquity which he hath done he shall die." (Here is death eternal.) It appears further, from the whole scope of the chapter, which is to prove, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (v. 4). If you say, "The soul here means the body," I answer, that will die, whether you sin or no. Again, thus saith the Lord: "When I shall say to the righteous that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness (yea, or to that promise as absolute and unconditional) and commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed he shall die for it" (Ezek. 33:13).

Again: "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby" (v. 18). Therefore one who is holy and righteous, in the judgment of God Himself, may yet so fall as to perish everlastingly.

Objection. "But," someone asks, "how is this consistent with what God declared elsewhere? If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments, I will visit their offenses with the rod, and their sin with scourges. Nevertheless my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him nor suffer my truth to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. I have sworn once by my holiness, that I will not fail David" (Ps. 89:30-35).

Wesley's answer. "There is no inconsistency between one declaration and the other. The prophet declares the righteous judgment of God against every righteous man who falls from his righteousness. The Psalmist declares the old loving kindness which God sware unto David. . . . May not every man see that the covenant here spoken of relates wholly to David and his seed or children? (as a family) while the other is spoken to men as individuals. Where, then, is the inconsistency between the most absolute promise made to a particular family, and that solemn account which God has given of His way of dealing with all mankind?

"Beside, the very covenant mentioned in these words is not absolute, but conditional. The condition of repentance, in case of forsaking God's law, was implied that, this condition failing, not being performed, God did also fail David. He did "alter the thing that had gone out of His lips," and yet without any impeachment of his truth. He "abhorred and forsook His anointed," verse 38, the seed of David, whose throne if they had repented, should have been "as the days of heaven." He did "break the covenant of His servant, and cast his crown to the ground" (v. 39). So vainly are these words of the Psalmist brought to contradict the plain full testimony of the prophet!

"Nor is there any contradiction between this testimony of God by Ezekiel, and those words which he spake by Jeremiah: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee." For do these words assert that no righteous man ever turns from his righteousness? No such thing. They do not touch the question, but simply declare God's love to the Jewish church. To see this in the clearest light you only need to read the context. "At the same time, saith the Lord, I will be a God to all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people," etc. (Jer. 31:1-4).

Suffer me here to observe, once for all, a fallacy which is constantly used by almost all writers on this point. They perpetually beg the question, by applying to particular persons, assertions, or prophecies which relate only to the church in general; and some of them only to the Jewish Church or nation, as distinguished from all other people.

II. One who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly. For thus saith the inspired apostle: "War a good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck" (1 Tim. 1:18,19).

Observe 1st. These men (such as Hymeneus and Alexander) had once the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, which they once had, or they could not have "put it away."

Observe 2nd. They made "ship-wreck" of the faith, which necessarily implies the total and final loss of it. For a vessel once wrecked can never be recovered. It is totally and finally lost.

And the Apostle himself, in his Second Epistle to Timothy, mentions one of these two as irrecoverably lost. "Alexander," says he, "did me much evil; the Lord shall reward him according to his works" (2 Tim. 4:14). Therefore, one who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly."

Objection. "But how can this be reconciled with the words of the Lord: 'He that believeth shall be saved'?"

Answer. "Do you think these words mean, 'He that believes' at this moment 'shall be saved,' certainly and inevitably? If this interpretation be good, then, by all the rules of speech, the other part of the sentence must mean, 'He that does not believe at this moment, shall certainly and inevitably be damned.' Therefore that interpretation cannot be good. The plain meaning, then, of the whole sentence is: 'He that believeth (if he continue in faith), shall be saved; he that believeth not (if he continue in unbelief), shall be damned."

Objection. "But does not Christ say elsewhere, 'He that believeth hath everlasting life?' (Jn. 3:36), and 'He that believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life?' " (v. 24).

Answer. "I answer. 1. The love of God is everlasting life. It is, in substance, the life of heaven. Now, everyone that believes, loves God, and therefore, hath everlasting life." 2. Everyone that believes "is" therefore, "passed from (spiritual) death unto life." 3. "Shall not come into condemnation," if he endureth in the faith unto the end; according to our Lord's own words, "He that endureth unto the end shall be saved"; and "Verily I say unto you, if a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death" (Jn. 8:510).

III. Those who are grafted into the good Olive tree, the spiritual, invisible church, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly. For thus saith the Apostle: "Some of the branches are broken off, and thou art grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the Olive-tree. Be not high-minded but fear; if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he spare not thee. Behold, the goodness and severity of God! On them which fell severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness; otherwise thou shalt be cut off" (Rom. 11:17,20-22). We may observe here:

1. The persons here spoken to were actually grafted into the Olive-tree.
2. This Olive-tree is not barely the outward visible Church but the invisible, consisting of holy believers. So the text: "If the first fruit be holy the lump is holy; and if the root be holy so are the branches" (v. 16). "And because of unbelief, they were broken off, and thou standest by faith."
3. These holy believers were still liable to be cut off, from the invisible church, into which they were then grafted.
4. Here is not the least intimation of those who were so cut off being ever grafted in again. Therefore those who are grafted into the good Olive-tree, the spiritual invisible church, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly.

Objection. "But how does this agree with the twenty-ninth verse, 'The gifts and callings of God are without repentance'?"

Answer. "The preceding verse shows: 'As touching the election (the unconditional election of the Jewish nation), they are beloved for the Father's sake, -- for the sake of their forefathers.' God has never regretted calling the Jewish nation, and He has blessings still in store for them as a nation. The words refer to the promised blessings to the nation: 'God is not a man that He should lie, neither the son of man that He should repent' (Num. 22:19). The passage has no reference to the eternal salvation of individuals."

Objection. "But do you not hereby make God changeable? Whereas with Him is 'no variableness' " (James 1:17).

Answer. "By no means, God is unchangeably holy; therefore He always loveth righteousness and hateth iniquity." He is unchangeably good; therefore He pardoneth all that "repent" and "believe the Gospel." And He is unchangeably just; therefore He "rewardeth every man according to his works." But all this hinders not His resisting the proud, to whom He gave great grace, when they were humble. Nay, His unchangeableness, itself requires that, if they grow high-minded, God should cut them off; that there should be a proportionable change in all the divine dispensations toward them.

Objection. "But how then is God faithful?"

Answer. "In fulfilling every promise He hath made, to all to whom it is made, all who fulfill the condition of that promise. More particularly,

1. "God is faithful" in that "He will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able to bear."
2. The Lord is faithful to establish you and keep you from evil (if you put your trust in Him), from all the evil that you might otherwise suffer, "through unreasonable and wicked men" (2 Thess. 3:2,3).
3. "Quench not the Spirit; hold fast that which is good; abstain from all appearance of evil; and your whole spirit, soul, and body, shall be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it" (1 Thess. 5:19-23).
4. "Be not disobedient unto the heavenly calling; and God is faithful by whom ye were called, to confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 1:8,9). Yet, notwithstanding all this, unless you fulfill the condition, you cannot obtain the promise.

Objection. "Nay, but are not all the promises, Yea and Amen?"

Answer. "In many cases the condition is not expressed. But this does not prove there is none implied. No promise can be expressed in a more absolute form, than those cited from the eighty-ninth Psalm. And yet a condition was implied even there, though none was expressed."

Objection. "But there is no condition expressed or implied, in those words of St. Paul: 'I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor height nor depth, not any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord' (Rom. 8:39)."

Answer. "Suppose there is not (which will bear dispute), yet what will this prove? Just this much, that the Apostle was at that time fully persuaded of his own perseverance. And I doubt not many believers at this day have the same persuasion, termed in Scripture 'the full assurance of hope.' But this does not prove that every believer shall persevere, any more than that every believer is thus fully persuaded of his perseverance."

IV. Those who are branches of the true Vine, of whom Christ says, "I am the vine, ye are the branches," may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly. For thus saith the blessed Lord Himself: "I am the true Vine and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit He taketh away. I am the Vine, ye are the branches. If a man abide not in me he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:1-6). Here we may observe: 1. The persons here spoken of were in Christ, branches of the true vine. 2. Some of these branches abide not in Christ, but the Father taketh them away. 3. The branches which abide not are cast forth, cast out from Christ and His Church. 4. They are not only cast forth but withered; consequently are never grafted in again; nay, 5. They are not only cast forth and withered, but also cast into the fire; and 6. They are burned. It is not possible for words more strongly to declare, that even those who are now branches in the true vine may yet so fall as to perish everlastingly.

By this clear, indisputable declaration of our Lord we may interpret those which might be otherwise liable to dispute; wherein it is certain, whatever He meant besides, He did not mean to contradict Himself. For example: "This is the Father's will, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing." Most sure, all that God hath given Him, or as it is expressed in the next verse, "every one that believeth on Him" -- namely, to the end -- "He will raise up at the last day, to reign with Him forever."

Again: "I am the living bread; if any man eat of this bread (by faith, and continue eating) he shall live forever" (John 6:51). True if he continue to eat thereof, and keep up the vital relation with Christ, and who can doubt it?

Again: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:27-29). In the preceding text, the condition is only implied; in this, it is plainly expressed. They are my sheep that hear my voice (continually), and (always) follow me in all holiness. And, "if ye do these things, ye shall never fail." "None shall pluck you out of my hand."

Again. Having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end (John 13:1). "Having loved His own" (namely the apostles, as the next words, "which were in the world" evidently show) "He loved them unto the end" of His life, and manifested that love to the last.

Once more: "Holy Father, keep through Thine own name, those whom Thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are one" (John 17:11). Great stress has been laid on this text; and it has been hence inferred, that all those whom the Father had given Him (a phrase frequently occurring in this chapter) must infallibly persevere unto the end. And yet in the very next verse, our Lord Himself declares that one of those whom the Father had given Him did not persevere unto the end, but perished everlastingly. His own words are: "Those that Thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition" (John 17:12). So one of these was finally lost! "Those whom thou hast given me," signifies here, if not in most other places, the twelve apostles, and them only.

On this occasion, I cannot but observe another common instance of begging the question, of taking for granted what ought to be proved; it is usually laid down as an indisputable truth that whatsoever our Lord speaks to, or of, His apostles is to be applied to all believers. But this cannot be allowed by any who impartially search the Scriptures. They cannot allow, without clear and particular proof, that any one of those texts which related primarily to the apostles (as all men grant) belong to any but them.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 02:38:00 AM by arcticmonster2003 »

arcticmonster2003

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 02:33:28 AM »
Continued - Part 2

V. Those who so effectually know Christ as by that knowledge to have escaped the pollutions of the world, may yet fall back into those pollutions, and perish everlastingly.

For thus saith the Apostle Peter: "If, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (the only possible way of escaping them), they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they had known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered them" (2 Pet. 2:20,21). That the "knowledge of the way of righteousness," which they had attained, was an inward, experimental knowledge, is evident from that other expression, "they had escaped the pollutions of the world," an expression parallel to that in the preceding chapter, verse 4, "having escaped the corruption that is in the world." And in both chapters the effect is ascribed to the same cause, -- termed in the first, "the knowledge of Him who hath called us to glory and virtue," in the second, more explicitly, "the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ."

And yet they lost that experimental knowledge of Christ, and the way of righteousness; they fell back into the same pollutions, they had escaped, and were again "entangled therein and overcome." They "turned from the holy commandment delivered to them," so their "latter end was worse than their beginning."

Therefore those who so effectually know Christ as by that knowledge to have escaped the pollutions of the world, may yet fall back into those pollutions and perish everlastingly. And this is perfectly consistent with St. Peter's words in the first chapter of his former Epistle: "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation." Undoubtedly so are all they who ever attain eternal salvation. It is the power of God only, and not our own, by which we are kept one day or one hour.

VI. Those who 'see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ,' and have been 'made partakers of the Holy Ghost,' of the witness and fruits of the Spirit, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly. For thus saith the inspired writer to the Hebrews: 'It is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, if they shall fall away (and then fell away -- New Version) to renew them again to repentance seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame (Heb. 6:4-6). Must not every unprejudiced person see the expressions here used are so strong and clear, that they cannot, without gross and palpable wresting, be understood of any but true believers?

1. They "were once enlightened," -- an expression familiar with the apostle Paul, and never applied by him to any but believers. So, "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation; the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward that believe" (Eph. 1:17-19). So again, "God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined into our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6). This is a light which no unbelievers have. They are utter strangers to such enlightening. "The God of this world hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine unto them" (verse 4).
2. "They had tasted of the heavenly gift (emphatically so-called), and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." So St. Peter likewise couples them together: "Be baptized for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38), whereby the love of God was shed abroad in their hearts, with all other fruits of the Spirit. Yea, it is remarkable that our Lord Himself, in His grand commission to St. Paul (to which the apostle probably alludes in these words) comprises all these three particulars: "I send thee to open their eyes, and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God (here contracted into that one expression, "they were enlightened"), that they may receive forgiveness of sins ("the heavenly gift") and "an inheritance among them that are sanctified" (Acts 26:18); which are made "partakers of the Holy Ghost," of all the sanctifying influences of the Spirit."

The expression, "They tasted of the heavenly gift," is taken from the Psalmist: "Taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). As if he had said, Be ye as assured of his love as of anything you see with your eyes; and let the assurance thereof be sweet to your soul as honey is to your tongue. And yet those who had been thus "enlightened," had "tasted" this "gift," and been thus "partakers of the Holy Ghost," so "fell away," that it was "impossible to renew them again to repentance."

Objection: "But the Apostle only makes a supposition: 'If they shall fall away.' "

Answer: "The Apostle makes no supposition at all. There is no 'if ' in the original. The words are kai parapesontas -- that is, in plain English, 'It is impossible to renew again unto repentance, those who were once enlightened, "and have fallen away"; therefore they must perish everlastingly.' "

Objection: "But if so, then farewell all my comfort!"

Answer: "Then your comfort depends on a poor foundation. My comfort stands, not on any opinion, either that a believer can, or cannot fall away, not on the remembrance of anything wrought in me yesterday; but on what is today; on my present knowledge of God in Christ, reconciling me to Himself; on my now beholding the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ; walking in the light as He is in the light, and having fellowship with the Father and with the Son. My comfort is that through grace I now believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that His Spirit doth bear witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. I take comfort in this, and this only, that I see Jesus at the right hand of God; that I personally for myself, and not for another, have a hope full of immortality; that I feel the love of God shed abroad in my heart, being crucified to the world, and the world crucified to me. My rejoicing is this, the testimony of my conscience, that in simplicity and Godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God I have my conversation in this world.

Go and find, if you can, a more solid joy, a more blissful comfort, on this side of heaven. But this comfort is not shaken, be that opinion, true or false, whether the saints in general can, or cannot fall. If you take up with any other comfort short of this, you lean on the staff of a broken reed, which not only will not bear your weight, but will enter into your hand and pierce you.


VII. Those who live by faith may yet fall from God and perish everlastingly. For thus saith the same inspired writer. "The just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him" (Heb. 10:38). "The just" -- the justified persons -- "shall live by faith," even now shall he live, the life which is hid with Christ in God; and if he endure unto the end, he shall live with God forever. "But if any man draw back," saith the Lord, "my soul shall have no pleasure in him," -- that is, I will utterly cast him off; and accordingly the drawing back here spoken of is termed, in the verse immediately following, "drawing back to perdition."

Objection: "But the person supposed to draw back is not the same with him that is said to live by faith."

Answer: "I answer, 1. Who is it then? Can any man draw back from faith who never came to it? But, 2. Had the text been fairly translated, there had been no pretense for this objection; for the original runs thus: 'But my righteous one shall live by faith; and if he shrink back my soul hath no pleasure in him' (Revised Version)."

Objection: "But the Apostle adds: 'We are not of them that draw back unto perdition.'"

Answer: "And what will you infer from thence? This is so far from contradicting what has been observed before, that it manifestly confirms it. It is a further proof that there are those who 'draw back unto perdition,' although the Apostle was not of the number. Therefore those who live by faith may yet so fall from God as to perish everlastingly."

Objection: But does not God say to everyone that lives by faith, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee?"

Answer: The whole passage runs thus: "Let your conversation be without covetousness, and be content with such things as ye have; for He hath said, 'I will never leave thee nor forsake thee.' " True, provided "your conversation be without covetousness," and ye "be content with such things as ye have." Then ye may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me." Do you not see,

1. That this promise relates only to temporal things?
2. That, even thus taken it is not absolute, but conditional?
3. That the condition is expressly mentioned in the same sentence?

VIII. Those who are sanctified by the blood of the Covenant may so fall from God as to perish everlastingly. For thus again saith the Apostle: "If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin; but a certain looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witness. 'Of how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:26-29). It is undeniably plain, 1. That the person mentioned here was once sanctified by the blood of the covenant. 2. That he afterward, by known, wilful sin, trod under foot the Son of God. 3. That he hereby incurred a sorer punishment than death, namely, death everlasting.

Therefore those who are sanctified by the blood of the covenant may yet so fall as to perish everlastingly.

Objection: "What! Can the blood of Christ burn in hell? Or can the purchase of the blood of Christ go thither?"

Answer: I answer. 1. "The blood of Christ cannot burn in hell, no more than it can be spilled on the earth. The heavens must contain both His flesh and blood, until the restitution of all things. But, 2. If the oracles of God are true, one who was purchased by the blood of Christ may go thither. For he that was sanctified by the blood of Christ was purchased by the blood of Christ. But one who was sanctified by the blood of Christ may nevertheless go to hell, may fall under the fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries.

Objection: "Can a child of God, then, go to hell? Or can a man be a child of God today, and a child of the devil tomorrow? If God is our Father once, is He not our Father always?"

Answer: "1. A child of God, that is, a true believer (for he that believeth is born of God), while he continues a true believer, cannot go to hell. 2. If a believer make shipwreck of the faith, he is no longer a child of God; and then he may go to hell, yea, and he certainly will if he continues in unbelief. 3. If a believer may make shipwreck of faith, then a man that believes now, may be an unbeliever some time hence; yea, very possibly tomorrow; but if so, he who is a child of God today, may be a child of the devil tomorrow. For, 4. God is the Father of them that believe, so long as they believe; but the devil is the father of them that believe not, whether they did once believe or no.

I. The sum of all is this: If the Scriptures are true, 1. Those who are holy or righteous in the judgment of God Himself: 2. Those who are endued with the faith that purifies the heart; that produces a good conscience; those who are grafted into the good Olive-tree, the spiritual, invisible Church; those who are branches of the true vine, of whom Christ says, I am the vine, ye are the branches; those who so effectually know Christ as by that knowledge to have escaped the pollutions of the world; those who see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and who have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost, of the witness and fruits of the Spirit; those who live by faith in the Son of God; those who are sanctified by the blood of the covenant, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly."

We have never seen this argument of Wesley's answered, and do not believe it can be.

II. The Bible continually warns the saints, as if there was real and constant danger of their backsliding fatally. It requires them to spend the time of their sojourning here in fear, and abounds in cautions and warnings and threatenings, that are most unaccountable, and illogical, and out of place if there is no possibility of fatal apostasy and the salvation of the saints is a revealed certainty. Can God reveal to us the fact, that we shall certainly be saved, and then call on us and exhort us to fear that we shall not be saved? Can He require us to doubt His word and His oath? If God has revealed the certainty of the salvation of all true saints, can any saint fear that he shall not be saved without down right unbelief? and can God approve, and even enjoin such fears?

Look at these amazing warnings.

1. 1 Cor. 10:12. "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
2. "Be not high-minded but fear; for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee."
3. "We entreat you that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." 2 Cor. 6:1.
4. "Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God." Heb. 3:12. "Exhort one another, day by day, so long as it is called today; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." Heb. 3:13.
5. "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. Like as in the day of temptation, in the wilderness." Heb. 3:8.
6. "Let us fear, therefore, lest haply, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it." Heb. 4:1.
7. "Let us therefore give diligence to enter into the rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience." Heb. 4:11.
8. "Looking carefully, lest there be any man that falleth short of the grace of God." Heb. 12:14-17.
9. "If ye call on Him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man's work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear." 1 Pet. 1:17.
10. "Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure." 2 Pet. 1:10.
11. "Now I desire to put you in remembrance . . . how that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not the second time." Jude 5 (margin).
12. "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life." Rev. 2:10.

Side by side with these solemn warnings of God I put this jumble of nonsense from a defender of the Calvinistic doctrine. "Once in grace always in grace." "No true saint who has an evidence, or an earnest of his acceptance with God, such as the true saint may have, has a right to fear for a moment that he shall fall nor has he a right to fear that he shall not be saved. I also add, that the Bible nowhere encourages or calls upon the saints to fear, that they shall not be saved, or that they shall be lost. It calls on them to fear something else, to fear to sin, or to apostatize, lest they should be lost, but not that they shall sin and be lost."

When able men write such contradictions, the reason is, their mind is confused by a poor cause which they are laboring to defend.

III. The Bible has some most remarkable conditional sentences, which inferentially teach the possibility of fatally falling from grace. The following are specimens:

1. "Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thought. If thou seek Him, He will be found of thee; but if thou forsake Him, He will cast thee off forever." 1 Chron. 28:9.
2. "He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 10:22.
3. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered." John 15:6.
4. "To them that by patience in well-doing, seek for glory, and honor and incorruption, eternal life." Rom. 2:7.
5. "Be not high-minded, but fear; for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will He spare thee. Behold then, the goodness and severity of God; toward them that fell severity; but toward thee God's goodness, if thou continue in His goodness; otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off." Rom. 11:20-22.
6. "I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage; lest by any means, after that I have preached to others; I myself should be rejected." 1 Cor. 9:27.
7. "To present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before Him; if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel." Col. 1:23.
8. "Whose (Christ's) house are we, if we hold fast our boldness, and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end." Heb. 3:6.
9. "For we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end." Heb. 3:14.
10. "To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life." Rev. 2:7. "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (v. 11). "To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the hidden manna" (v. 17). "He that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations" (v. 26). "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief ' (3:3). "He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life" (v. 5). "Hold that fast which thou hast, that no one take thy crown." But suppose some of God's children do not "overcome" and do not "hold fast," and do not "keep God's words unto the end" (as many do not), what then? Then Jesus teaches here that they lose their crown, and their "name is blotted out of the book of life," after being once put in it. No one would dream of any other interpretation, if he had not a doctrinal notion to drive through the Bible at any cost.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 02:36:46 AM by arcticmonster2003 »

arcticmonster2003

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 02:34:03 AM »
Continued - Part 3

IV. The Scriptures seem to name many cases of those who once knew God and fatally fell.

The Israelite Fathers, "Who were baptized and eat of the same Spiritual drink" (Christ), but "God was not pleased with many of them, and overthrew them in the wilderness." And "some committed fornication and fell" and "some tempted Christ and were destroyed," etc. Now "these things were written for our admonition," "wherefore, let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor. 10:1-12.

Balaam, who knew God; and got remarkable answers to prayer, and God talked with him, and "whom he blessed was blessed, and whom he cursed was cursed." He was the "man who heareth the words of God, and knoweth the knowledge of the Most High." "The word that God putteth in my mouth that shall I speak," yet his carnal nature, through covetousness, caused him to backslide and fall, as many another prophet and preacher has fallen since. Num. Chapters 22-24; 2 Pet. 2:14,15; Rev. 2:14.

"God gave Saul another heart," "and turned him into another man," and "the Spirit of God came mightily upon him and he prophesied." But he afterward disobeyed, and backslid, and God left him, and he became a suicide. 1 Sam. 10....

As David declared, Solomon forsook God and was "cast off forever" though in his early life "Solomon loved Jehovah, walking in the statutes of David his father." 1 Chron. 28:9; 1 Kings 3:3.

Judas was one of the twelve Apostles, called to preach, and work miracles, and cast out devils. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that his early ministry was not as successful and acceptable as was that of the other apostles; but "from his apostleship Judas by transgression fell." Acts 1:25. It is unthinkable that Jesus chose an unbeliever and a child of the devil to be a minister and an apostle.

Hymeneus and Alexander had once the faith that purifies the heart and produces a good conscience. But they put their good conscience away, and made shipwreck of faith. 1 Tim. 1:19, 20.

Men fatally backslid in the ancient church; and they have done the same in the modern. We have lived to see great Bible teachers, great evangelists and leaders of holiness, and bishops fall. Angels fell from heaven; and men, honored almost as angels, shining in the front ranks of the Church militant, have fallen, like Lucifer from heaven. . . .

Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin's lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God's book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever "receive the grace of God in vain"; "bury his talents"; "neglect such great salvation"; trifle away "a day of grace"; "look back" after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can "grieve the Spirit" till He is "quenched," and strives no more, nor "deny the Lord that bought them"; nor "bring upon themselves swift destruction." Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth.

They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever "cast forth," he was never in, and "if one ever withered," he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that "if any man draws back," it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever "falls away into spiritual darkness," he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you "again get entangled in the pollutions of the world," it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you "put salvation away" you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can't lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!


http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/wesley.htm
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 02:40:54 AM by arcticmonster2003 »

Offline Molly

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 03:17:53 AM »
For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
   who thee by faith before the world confessed,
   thy name, O Jesus, be forever blest.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

2.   Thou wast their rock, their fortress, and their might;
   thou Lord, their captain in the well-fought fight;
   thou in the darkness drear, their one true light.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

3.   O may thy soldiers, faithful, true, and bold,
   fight as the saints who nobly fought of old,
   and win with them the victor's crown of gold.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

4.   O blest communion, fellowship divine!
   We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
   yet all are one in thee, for all are thine.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

5.   And when the strife is fierce, the warfare long,
   steals on the ear the distant triumph song,
   and hearts are brave again, and arms are strong.
   Alleluia, Alleluia!

6.   From earth's wide bounds, from ocean's farthest coast,
   through gates of pearl streams in the countless host,
   singing to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:
   Alleluia, Alleluia!


--Wm How  (1823-1897)

Offline Tony N

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 03:19:00 AM »
arcticmonster,
Please read and understand the difference between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision.
The Circumcision can lose their salvation for live in the coming eon.
The Uncircumcision believer can never lose their salvation for the eons to come because that salvation is not earned and not lost by what we do or do not do. It was graciously given to us.
The Circumcision operate under a revocable pardon.
The Uncircumcision are justified and cannot be unjustified.

Though the Circumcision can lose their salvation to life in the coming eon all mankind will eventually be saved due to what Christ accomplished in ransoming them.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 03:39:09 AM »
Please read and understand the difference between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision.
The Circumcision can lose their salvation for live in the coming eon.
The Uncircumcision believer can never lose their salvation for the eons to come because that salvation is not earned and not lost by what we do or do not do. It was graciously given to us.
The Circumcision operate under a revocable pardon.
The Uncircumcision are justified and cannot be unjustified.

Though the Circumcision can lose their salvation to life in the coming eon all mankind will eventually be saved due to what Christ accomplished in ransoming them.

 :thumbsup: :goodpost: :Yesss:  :2thumbs: :gthumbsup: :mthumbsup: :happyclap: :high5: 
 
Thank you Jesus, for dying for us, and rising again for our salvation.  Thank you Father for grafting us in by Your grace.   :bowing:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

bobf

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 04:34:31 AM »
Quote
VII. Those who live by faith may yet fall from God and perish everlastingly. For thus saith the same inspired writer. "The just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him" (Heb. 10:38). "The just" -- the justified persons -- "shall live by faith," even now shall he live, the life which is hid with Christ in God; and if he endure unto the end, he shall live with God forever. "But if any man draw back," saith the Lord, "my soul shall have no pleasure in him," -- that is, I will utterly cast him off; and accordingly the drawing back here spoken of is termed, in the verse immediately following, "drawing back to perdition."

OBJECTION I:  The quoted verse says absolutely nothing about perishing everlastingly.
OBJECTION II:  The man in 1 Cor 5 who had his fathers wife drew back and did not perish everlastingly though he was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

~~~~~~~~~~

I don't believe everyone is [presently saved] nor do I believe in OSAS.  Neither of those is logically required to believe God will saved all mankind.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 04:48:27 AM by bobf »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 08:28:44 AM »
arcticmonster2003,

I partly agree with you.
But things depend greatly on the defenition of saved.
In ET the outcome is black/white. After death you go to hell forever or to heaven/paradise forever.

In UR things have shades of grey. Yes UR teaches we are all saved in the sense that after a undefined period of time after your death you enter heaven/paradise.
Between death and heaven is a learning period that isn't 'nice' to put it mildly.
I have to say that some UR people believe that the period is zero. I'm not one of them.

So I believe we are all saved from the moment we where born. Or from the foundation of the earth when the Lamb was slain.
But we are not automaticly saved from something bad between now and 'the end'.

There is a choice. Walk had in hand with Jesus toward 'the end'
Or let Jesus beat you toward 'the end' with his rod of iron.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

arcticmonster2003

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 09:25:26 AM »
arcticmonster,
Please read and understand the difference between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision.
The Circumcision can lose their salvation for live in the coming eon.
The Uncircumcision believer can never lose their salvation for the eons to come because that salvation is not earned and not lost by what we do or do not do. It was graciously given to us.
The Circumcision operate under a revocable pardon.
The Uncircumcision are justified and cannot be unjustified.

Though the Circumcision can lose their salvation to life in the coming eon all mankind will eventually be saved due to what Christ accomplished in ransoming them.

I disagree that all mankind will "eventually be saved", which of course is at the very heart of universalism.

There are not 2 salvations mentioned in the scriptures.

You are either saved unto eternal life, or not saved unto eternal torment by fire in the Lake of Fire. The translators got it right. Eternal means eternal.

John Wesley also would disagree with you if still here with us on earth, he considered universalism a "grand error".



Offline jabcat

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 09:30:04 AM »
(Amended--this is an example of how translating aionios and its derivatives as eternal/everlasting would not work in these verses...it's not how the verses actually read...many claim aion should be translated consistently as age, etc., rather than perhaps hundreds of different ways to "fit the translators' doctrinal beliefs";  including using eternal/everlasting wherever they choose to put it)

Isaiah 54:4

μη φοβου οτι κατησχυνθης μηδε εντραπης οτι ωνειδισθης οτι αισχυνην αιωνιον επιληση και ονειδος της χηρειας σου ου μη μνησθηση

Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy eternal/everlasting shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood.

Isaiah 61:4

και οικοδομησουσιν ερημους αιωνιας εξηρημωμενας προτερον εξαναστησουσιν και καινιουσιν πολεις ερημους εξηρημωμενας εις γενεας

And they shall build the eternal/everlasting waste places, they shall raise up those that were before made desolate, and shall renew the desert cities, even those that had been desolate for many generations.

Kind'a like the "eternal" fire on the altar that's gone out...Jonah in the belly of the whale "forever"...the fire that would burn "eternally" at the gates of Jerusalem...forever and ever?  Two forevers?  Not so much.

ArcticMonster...welcome back.  I examine my beliefs regularly...hopefully you're not so dug in that you would attempt to refuse revelation if God wanted to provide it to you.

 Is your mind closed or open, even to the fact that God may yet have some things to reveal to you that may currently be veiled?

Whether we see this the same way or not, as far as I'm concerned we're brothers, believers on Jesus the Savior as our forgiver and sustainer...and that's the main thing, no?

God's blessing, James.



« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 11:21:41 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 09:40:20 AM »
I believe "Jesus, the Savior of the world, especially of those believing".  I will share, do some reasoning, but beyond that, I personally prefer to not do a lot of arguing or debating...God will lead us where He wills, and will veil and reveal as suits His purposes.   :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:47:03 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

arcticmonster2003

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 09:50:27 AM »
Isaiah 54:4

μη φοβου οτι κατησχυνθης μηδε εντραπης οτι ωνειδισθης οτι αισχυνην αιωνιον επιληση και ονειδος της χηρειας σου ου μη μνησθηση

Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy eternal/everlasting shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood.

Isaiah 61:4

και οικοδομησουσιν ερημους αιωνιας εξηρημωμενας προτερον εξαναστησουσιν και καινιουσιν πολεις ερημους εξηρημωμενας εις γενεας

And they shall build the eternal/everlasting waste places, they shall raise up those that were before made desolate, and shall renew the desert cities, even those that had been desolate for many generations.

Kind'a like the "eternal" fire on the altar that's gone out...Jonah in the belly of the whale "forever"...the fire that would burn "eternally" at the gates of Jerusalem...forever and ever?  Two forevers?  Not so much.

ArcticMonster...welcome back.  I examine my beliefs regularly...hopefully you're not so dug in that you would attempt to refuse revelation if God wanted to provide it to you.

 Is your mind closed or open, even to the fact that God may yet have some things to reveal to you that may currently be veiled?

Whether we see this the same way or not, as far as I'm concerned we're brothers, believers on Jesus the Savior as our forgiver and sustainer...and that's the main thing, no?

God's blessing, James.





From the KJV:

Isaiah 54:4  Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

Isaiah 61:4  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.


What translation are you using jabcat? I hope you aren's just taking the greek word to mean the same thing in every case and think it does not require a gifted translator for true translation.

I'll admit this list of translations of these verses is not every translation available, but is certainly massive, and many of these translators didn't merely know these languages, but were gifted with languages.

Isa 54:4

(ASV)  Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more.

(BBE)  Have no fear; for you will not be shamed or without hope: you will not be put to shame, for the shame of your earlier days will go out of your memory, and you will no longer keep in mind the sorrows of your widowed years.

(Bishops)  Feare not, for thou shalt not be confounded: be not ashamed, for thou shalt not come to confusion: Yea thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the dishonour of thy widowhead.

(CEV)  Don't be afraid or ashamed and don't be discouraged. You won't be disappointed. Forget how sinful you were when you were young; stop feeling ashamed for being left a widow.

(Darby)  Fear not, for thou shalt not be ashamed; neither be thou confounded, for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

(DRB)  Fear not, for thou shalt not be confounded, nor blush: for thou shalt not be put to shame, because thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt remember no more the reproach of thy widowhood.

(ESV)  "Fear not, for you will not be ashamed; be not confounded, for you will not be disgraced; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

(Geneva)  Feare not: for thou shalt not be ashamed, neither shalt thou be confounded: for thou shalt not bee put to shame: yea, thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproch of thy widdowhoode any more.

(GNB)  Do not be afraid---you will not be disgraced again; you will not be humiliated. You will forget your unfaithfulness as a young wife, and your desperate loneliness as a widow.

(GW)  Don't be afraid, because you won't be put to shame. Don't be discouraged, because you won't be disgraced. You'll forget the shame you've had since you were young. You won't remember the disgrace of your husband's death anymore.

(KJV+)  Fear3372 not;408 for3588 thou shalt not3808 be ashamed:954 neither408 be thou confounded;3637 for3588 thou shalt not3808 be put to shame:2659 for3588 thou shalt forget7911 the shame1322 of thy youth,5934 and shalt not3808 remember2142 the reproach2781 of thy widowhood491 any more.5750

(KJV-1611)  Feare not: for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded, for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

(KJVA)  Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

(KJVR)  Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

(LITV)  Do not fear, for you shall not be shamed, nor shall you be abashed, for you shall not be wounded. For you shall forget the shame of your youth, and you shall not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more.

(MKJV)  Do not fear; for you shall not be ashamed, nor shall you blush; for you shall not be put to shame; for you shall forget the shame of your youth, and shall not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more.

(MSG)  Don't be afraid--you're not going to be embarrassed. Don't hold back--you're not going to come up short. You'll forget all about the humiliations of your youth, and the indignities of being a widow will fade from memory.

(NAS77)  "Fear not, for you will not be put to shame; Neither feel humiliated, for you will not be disgraced; But you will forget the shame of your youth, And the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

(NASB)  "Fear not, for you will not be put to shame; And do not feel humiliated, for you will not be disgraced; But you will forget the shame of your youth, And the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

(NASB+)  "FearH3372a not, for you will not be putH954 to shameH954; And do not feelH3637 humiliatedH3637, for you will not be disgracedH2659; But you will forgetH7911 the shameH1322 of your youthH5934, And the reproachH2781 of your widowhoodH491 you will rememberH2142 noH3808 moreH5750.

(NIrV)  "Do not be afraid. You will not be put to shame anymore. Do not be afraid of being dishonored. People will no longer make fun of you. You will forget the time when you suffered as slaves in Egypt. You will no longer remember the shame of being a widow in Babylonia.

(NIV)  "Do not be afraid; you will not suffer shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.

(NKJV)  "Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed; Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame; For you will forget the shame of your youth, And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore.

(RSV)  "Fear not, for you will not be ashamed; be not confounded, for you will not be put to shame; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

(RV)  Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more.

(TNIV)  "Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.

(Webster)  Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame; for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

(YLT)  And desolate cities they cause to be inhabited. Fear not, for thou art not ashamed, Nor blush, for thou art not confounded, For the shame of thy youth thou forgettest, And the reproach of thy widowhood Thou dost not remember any more.




Isa 61:4

(ASV)  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

(BBE)  And they will be building again the old broken walls, and will make new the old waste places, and will put up again the towns which have been waste for long generations.

(Bishops)  They shall buylde the long rough wildernesse, and set vp the olde desert: they shall repayre the waste places, and suche as haue ben voyde throughout many generations.

(CEV)  Then they will rebuild cities that have been in ruins for many generations.

(Darby)  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the places desolate from generation to generation.

(DRB)  And they shall build the places that have been waste from of old, and shall raise up ancient ruins, and shall repair the desolate cities, that were destroyed for generation and generation.

(ESV)  They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations.

(Geneva)  And they shall builde the olde waste places, and raise vp the former desolations, and they shal repaire the cities that were desolate and waste through many generations.

(GNB)  They will rebuild cities that have long been in ruins.

(GW)  They will rebuild the ancient ruins. They will restore the places destroyed long ago. They will renew the ruined cities, the places destroyed generations ago.

(KJV+)  And they shall build1129 the old5769 wastes,2723 they shall raise up6965 the former7223 desolations,8074 and they shall repair2318 the waste2721 cities,5892 the desolations8074 of many generations.1755, 1755

(KJV-1611)  And they shall build the olde wastes, they shall raise vp the former desolations, and they shall repaire the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

(KJVA)  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

(KJVR)  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

(LITV)  And they shall build old ruins; they shall raise up former desolations; and they shall restore the waste cities, ruins of generations and generations.

(MKJV)  And they will build the old wastes, they will raise up the ruins of former times. And they will repair the waste cities, the ruins of many generations.

(MSG)  They'll rebuild the old ruins, raise a new city out of the wreckage. They'll start over on the ruined cities, take the rubble left behind and make it new.

(NAS77)  Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations, And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.

(NASB)  Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.

(NASB+)  Then they will rebuildH1129 the ancientH5769 ruinsH2723, They will raiseH6965 up the formerH7223 devastationsH8074; And they will repairH2318 the ruinedH2721b citiesH5892b, The desolationsH8074 of manyH1755 generationsH1755.

(NIrV)  They will rebuild the places that were destroyed long ago. They will repair the buildings that have been broken down for many years. They will make the destroyed cities like new again. They have been broken down for a very long time.

(NIV)  They will rebuild the ancient ruins and restore the places long devastated; they will renew the ruined cities that have been devastated for generations.

(NKJV)  And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.

(RSV)  They shall build up the ancient ruins, they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations.

(RV)  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

(TNIV)  They will rebuild the ancient ruins and restore the places long devastated; they will renew the ruined cities that have been devastated for generations.

(Webster)  And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

(YLT)  And they have built the wastes of old, The desolations of the ancients they raise up, And they have renewed waste cities, The desolations of generation and generation.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:54:09 AM by arcticmonster2003 »

martincisneros

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 11:06:36 AM »
Actually, John Wesley was a Universalist.  One of the secondary or tertiary reasons for my pushing people to read up on Elhanan Winchester's books 'cause you inevitably come to the bio on him that gets into a little bit of detail about the fact that Elhanan Winchester was best buds with John Wesley.  John Wesley was likely introduced to UR through Sir George Stonehouse whom he found unanswerable.  John Wesley was President of a Society at Oxford called the "Holy Club."  They FREELY DISCUSSED the Universal Restoration.  John Wesley published or republished a number of UR materials during his lifetime, including Brooke's "Fool of Quality" and he republished Charles Bonnet's "Conjectures Concerning The Nature Of Future Happiness."  In 1787 John Wesley introduced Bonnet's book with the following comment:

"Dublin, April 7, 1787

To The Reader:

I am happy in communicating to men of sense in this kingdom, and at a very low price, one of the most sensible tracts I ever saw.

John Wesley"

As far as John Wesley sermons where he openly advocated the Universal Restoration, read the sermons:

"The Mystery Of Iniquity"
"The New Creation"
"The General Spread Of The Gospel"

The biography that I have on Elhanan Winchester from 1838 even mentions Dr. Adam Clarke as having seemingly advocated endless misery, but having at the same time written some of the most beautiful stuff on the Universal Restoration.  It says to have a look at Adam Clarke's comments on Titus 2:11 as an example.

As far as quotations from John Wesley, since you want to quote Wesley, let's go there briefly and hopefully within 20,000 characters so that the board won't cough and spit at me that it can't publish to the forum a post that's that big.  If necessary, I'll break this up into two posts:

"And have we not farther ground for thankfulness, yea and strong consolation in the blessed hope which God hath given us, that the time is at hand when righteousness shall be as universal as unrighteousness is now?  Allowing that the whole creation now groaneth together under the sin of man, our comfort is that it will not always groan!  God will arise and maintain his own cause.  And the whole creation shall then be delivered both from moral and natural corruption.  Sin, and it's consequence pain, shall be no more -- holiness and happiness shall cover the whole earth.  Then shall the ends of the world see the salvation of God.  And the whole race of mankind shall know, and love, and serve God, and reign with him forever and ever!"
From "The Mystery Of Iniquity"

And from his sermon on The New Creation, Rev. 21:5, is the following: "But the most glorious of all, will be the change which then will take place on the poor, sinful, miserable children of men.  These had fallen in many respects as from a great height, so into a lower depth than any other part of creation.  But they shall hear a great voice out of heaven, saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them; and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be their God.  Hence will arise an unmixt state of holiness and happiness, far superior to that which Adam enjoyed in Paradise: 'God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying.  Neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.'  As there will be no more pain, or sickness preparatory thereto; as there will be no more grieving for, or parting with friends, so there will be no more sorrow or crying.  Nay, but there will be no more sin!  And to crown all, there will be a deep, an intimate, and uninterrupted union with God: A constant communion with the Father and his Son Jesus Christ through the Spirit; a continual enjoyment of the three-one God, and of all creatures in him."

In his sermon on The General Spread Of The Gospel, after speaking of the state of the world occasioned by sin, he remarks: "It will not be always thus; these things are permitted only for a season by the governor of the world, that he may draw immense eternal good out of this temporary evil.  This is the very key which the apostle himself gives us in the words above recited, "God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."  In view of this glorious event how well may we cry out, "O the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are thy judgments and thy ways past finding out." It is enough we are assured of this one point, that all these transient evils issue well -- will have a happy conclusion, and that mercy first and last will reign....He will never intermit the blessed work of his Spirit until he has fulfilled all his promises -- until he hath put a period to sin, and misery, and death; and re-established universal holiness and happiness, and caused all the inhabitants of the earth to sing together, Hallelujah! the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth!"


And I've posted this to this board before and it's worth the repeat from John Wesley's Explanatory Notes:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

That in the dispensation of the fullness of the times In this last administration of God's fullest grace, which took place when the time appointed was fully come.

He might gather together into one in Christ Might recapitulate, re-unite, and place in order again under Christ, their common Head.

All things which are in heaven, and on earth All angels and men, whether living or dead, in the Lord.


2Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

And all these new things are from God, considered under this very notion, as reconciling us - The world, 2Corinthians 5:19, to himself.

2Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Namely The sum of which is, God - The whole Godhead, but more eminently God the Father.

Was in Christ, reconciling the world Which was before at enmity with God.

To himself So taking away that enmity, which could no otherwise be removed than by the blood of the Son of God.


Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

And every creature In the whole universe, good or bad.

In the heaven, on the earth, under the earth, on the sea With these four regions of the world, agrees the fourfold word of praise. What is in heaven, says blessing; what is on earth, honour; what is under the earth, glory: what is on the sea, strength; is unto him. This praise from all creatures begins before the opening of the first seal; but it continues from that time to eternity, according to the capacity of each. His enemies must acknowledge his glory; but those in heaven say, Blessed be God and the Lamb. This royal manifesto is, as it were, a proclamation, showing how Christ fulfils all things, and "every knee bows to him," not only on earth, but also in heaven, and under the earth. This book exhausts all things, 1 Corinthians 15:27,28, and is suitable to an heart enlarged as the sand of the sea. It inspires the attentive and intelligent reader with such a magnanimity, that he accounts nothing in this world great; no, not the whole frame of visible nature, compared to the immense greatness of what he is here called to behold, yea, and in part, to inherit. St. John has in view, through the whole following vision, what he has been now describing, namely, the four living creatures, the elders, the angels, and all creatures, looking together at the opening of the seven seals.


1Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Son also shall be subject Shall deliver up the mediatorial kingdom. That the three-one God may be all in all - All things, (consequently all persons,) without any interruption, without the intervention of any creature, without the opposition of any enemy, shall be subordinate to God. All shall say, "My God, and my all." This is the end. Even an inspired apostle can see nothing beyond this.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2009, 11:11:02 AM »
Sorry Martin, don't want to detract from you good post with this...I was too late to get this little thing in before yours...

AM, my apologies on that one particular post...I should have been more careful...what I posted was actually a piece demonstrating how inserting everlasting/eternal as the translation for aionios or its derivatives would not work in those verses...the point of which would be (which leads back to an old argument) that many say aion/olam/aionios etc. should be consistently translated, rather than (as they claim) change its meaning around to fit whatever doctrine a particular translator believed....for instance, Knoch (CLT) always translated it more as an age/of the ages, etc., rather than attempt to use it many different ways to, as some might say, "suit his purposes"...Again, sorry for the sloppiness of that post...I bet you were wondering "what the heck is that guy reading?"  :laughing7:.  I've gone up and amended my post..hopefully it makes more sense.

God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 11:23:36 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sven

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 11:24:33 AM »
Quote
What translation are you using jabcat?

its written in the Septuagint, Greek OT

Offline jabcat

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2009, 11:35:33 AM »
So Sven, you're talking about the actual, "closest to the original text" that we have, that hasn't been translated a hundred times, right?  Then with everlasting/eternal put in as a translation it looks like what I quoted above...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 11:38:54 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sven

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2009, 11:46:31 AM »
I think it's a missunderstanding, Arctic Monster quoted translations based on the Hebrew where it doesn't say olam, but the LXX says aionios

I'm not quite sure:

Isaiah 54:4  Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

i think it might be of thy youth which the translators of the LXX translated aionios, if they translated of thy youth with aionios, they sure didn't understand aionios to mean eternal, but I think this leads to far here.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2009, 11:49:21 AM »
Nah, I think that's good...thanks.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sven

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2009, 12:05:41 PM »
I posted it here, maybe anyone can help

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3546.0

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2009, 03:48:28 PM »
You are either saved unto eternal life, or not saved unto eternal torment by fire in the Lake of Fire. The translators got it right. Eternal means eternal.

John Wesley also would disagree with you if still here with us on earth, he considered universalism a "grand error".



First, the translators got it right is your declaration of an opinion that you side with that translation.  When in fact Gods word is correct in either fashion.

You can try to debate out the correctness of age bearing or everlasting if you like.  But I have found it quite curious that christians will argue that the preservation of Gods word is evidence of its divine nature yet quickly determine translations they do not like are bad.  ok, but then when we get into doctrinal issues such as this, which word of God was preserved correctly?

You have ask "what translation"  why?  What point is there to ask that if Gods word has been preserved?

The truth is that literally it is age bearing,  figuratively it will seem like forever or we cannot perceive its length.   So, pick your translations, the message is still the same in the correct context.

And no offense,  I really couldn't care less if John Wesley disagrees, so what?


Jesus purpose is to save the whole world,  you either believe he can do it, or you don't.  Not believing it doesn't change what will happen.

Your saved whether you like it right now or not.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2009, 04:37:06 PM »
i think it might be of thy youth which the translators of the LXX translated aionios, if they translated of thy youth with aionios, they sure didn't understand aionios to mean eternal, but I think this leads to far here.

I can't find the post right now but in the past 3 days someone quoted text from an old Greek writing.
Something like: ".......for aionios, that is during is (whole) life......."
Seems to match exactly with your quote.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2009, 06:41:05 PM »
Quote from: articmonster2003
You are either saved unto eternal life, or not saved unto eternal torment by fire in the Lake of Fire. The translators got it right. Eternal means eternal.

Hi,

We humans cannot be saved unto eternal life, nor eternal torment. Eternal can only apply to God, because only he is eternal. Without beginning or end. Even if we were to be punished in the lake of fire for ages without an end, it still would not be eternal because it would have a beginning. Eternal doesn't have a beginning.

Just the way I see it.

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »
I hope you aren's just taking the greek word to mean the same thing in every case and think it does not require a gifted translator for true translation.

I assume "true translation" means translate to fit into a/your doctrine?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2009, 07:42:34 PM »
This is an excellent teaching by John Wesley. Its purpose is to dispute the once saved, always saved doctrine. However since universalsim says everyone is saved, I think it applies nicely as a general argument against universalism.

This is the very first couple of sentences to this post.  I couldn't keep my attention span focused enough to read through the whole thing there . . .but I would like to just say a couple things to this opening argument being presented.

First of . .for me anyway . . .I have found myself in the seat of believing BOTH OSAS (once saved always saved)  and UR.  And I "think" most others who believe in UR also have the same POV on this as well.  Salvation is a gift that we have done nothing to earn, but it was freely given . .and God doesn't reneg on the gifts he gives.  So . . .you can believe that Christ went through the pain and torture just as an option for us to choose . . .or that he did it to save us regardless of our choosing . . .I think the latter has endless more rewards to it myself.

But on the other piece of this . . . again, this is just my opinion here, but it would seem that you're view of what UR believes seems to be just a bit off in that I don't think it means that everyone IS saved . . . it just means that in the end . .everyone WILL BE saved.  This is not to take away from the fact that there "is" a lake of fire . .and there "are" consequences for our decisions here in the flesh.  It's just that the lake of fire is not a place of destruction of Gods creation (people), just the ungodly nature that's attatched to them.  

And why is it such a bad thing to believe that the Blood of the Lamb is just that powerful?  Why can't we accept the fact that God's will is truly more powerful than man's will?  Why would we want to believe that God would leave an eternal decision up to our limited minds to make?  And why would we want to accept that "Love" will destroy or torment those that don't accept Him?  That doesn't sound like love, that sounds like the carnal reasoning of the mind of men.

Offline CHB

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Re: Perseverance of the Saints
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2009, 07:50:06 PM »

AMEN Nathan!!!   :thumbsup:

CHB