Author Topic: Four Questions to ET Believers  (Read 1847 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Four Questions to ET Believers
« on: February 23, 2009, 10:22:31 AM »
I wanted to recycle these 4 Questions, and then add some comments from Eric Stetson.

QUESTION #1

"For all the land which you see, I give to you and your descendants forever." (Genesis 13:15) 

"Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Genesis 17:8) 

After reading and studying these two Scriptures it appears to me that something is not in accord, because the physical seed of Abraham has not always retained possession of the land of Canaan. From A.D. 70 up to the middle of the 20th century, the people of Israel were scattered throughout this entire earth and thus did not possess their Promised Land endlessly, as the words forever and everlasting signify. Can you explain this? 

QUESTION #2

The Bible also says that the Aaronic Priesthood is an everlasting priesthood, but the book of Hebrews clearly states an end to it. (See Exodus 40:15, Numbers 25:13, and Hebrews 7:14-18). Likewise, Leviticus 24:8 tells of the Mt. Sinai or Mosaic covenant as being an everlasting covenant, yet Jeremiah 31:31 prophesies its end with a second and better covenant. Hebrews 8:7-13 reiterates this prophecy as being fulfilled. Why the apparent contradictions?

QUESTION #3

If punishment in hell, which is described as a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, is everlasting, then why does God's Word clearly state the following?

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

QUESTION #4

Likewise, in Revelation 20:14 the lake of fire is referred to as the "second death." So how can the lake of fire, or the "second death," be an eternal place of punishment when God's Word clearly tells us that "death" will come to an end in Revelation 21:4? (See also I Corinthians 15:26)
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Note--those that are NOT full Preterists will likely benefit most from Eric's comments below:

The words translated for ever and ever should rightly be translated for ages of ages;  everlasting or eternal should be age-lasting.

Future, corrective punishment exists, but its duration is not for ever and ever.  Fire and brimstone (sulpher) are both purifying agents. 

God has a two phased plan to save ALL people.  There is a special salvation for the elect who are relatively few in number.  The elect are chosen from the nation of Israel and also from Gentile nations.  They will be raised up and be with Christ at the First Resurrection which takes place at His second coming.  It is described as a better resurrection.  After 1,000 years, the rest of humanity will be resurrected and judged at the Great White Throne Judgment in the Lake of Fire, with the ultimate aim of bringing salvation, righteousenss and reconciliation for all people.  After the GWT judgment all the resurrected unbelievers in their immortal spiritual bodies will be cast into the Lake of Fire.  The earth will be cleansed by fire, which is both a literal and spiritual fire.

God's devouring physical fire will burn up all of man's physical works of the flesh.  God's refining, consuming spiritual fire will remove all of the dross, scum, filth, and unbelief from the hearts of all unbelievers.  God will also judge fallen angels and cleanse them with His fire. 

Rev. 5 says, "But the rest of the dead will not live again until the thousand years were finished."  This is the Second Resurrection which will consist of all those who did not have a part in the First Resurrection.  This group of people will be all those who died as unbelievers, and all those who lived and died during Christ's millennial rule.

Rev. 20:15 is about the Lake of Fire and second death. Then contrast that with Rev. 21:1-6, which describes; a new heaven and a new earth...states "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people."  Further, that God will be with them ...will wipe away every tear from their eyes;  THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, NOR SORROW, NOR CRYING.  And John states, "And he said to me "it is done!""

The important truth we now need to show is that God's redeemed people called the Bride, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem will be joined by all peoples and nations from this old earth as they repent and receive salvation.  This truth is given the next verses of Rev. 21:24-26.

The Lamb's Book of Life is not a closed book, such that new names cannot be added to it.  God will continue to add new names to it as people repent and accept Jesus Christ.  Traditional Christianity does not understand this truth.  If the Lamb's Book of Life were a closed book, then why are the nations still being saved and coming into the Holy City?  Those who are privileged to be God's elect , the Bride of Christ, will actually be evangelising and helping our fellow human beings to leave the old earth and join us, God's Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

As Apostle Paul says, "God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all". 

We are sure that the traditional teaching of eternal torture in "hell" for multiple billions of humanity is a great deception of Satan and a stench in the nostrils of God.  The Word of God is abundantly clear that God's judgments lead to his righteousenss and salvation and not the the chambers of eternal torture. -- Eric Stetson

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation. For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:9-11

 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 12:08:36 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sven

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 11:26:28 AM »
no offense, but revelation is bad to "proof" universalism

but you could ask, why they claim second death is an terrible everlasting life and not death

My questions would be, it never came in God's heart to burn in children in gehenna

Jeremiah 7:32

And have built the high places of Tophet, That are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, Which I did not command, Nor did it come up on My heart.

so why do they claim, God is going to eternally torment most of mankind in a literal or symbolic fire in the literal or allegorical valley of hinnom/gehenna?

Jesus said, we shall fear who is able to destroy both body and soul in gehenna

Matthew 10:28

And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

They say, fear him, who will keep body and soul alive to eternally torment them in gehenna.

If they believe in free will, Deuteronomy 30:19 says

I have caused to testify against you to-day the heavens and the earth; life and death I have set before thee, the blessing and the reviling;

Than the choice would be live or death, death is not everlasting torment, cause Salomo says: And I am finding more bitter than death, the woman whose heart [is] nets and snares... (Eccl. 7:26)

Paul also says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) while they claim the wages of sin is everlasting torment or that death is actually a horrible everlasting live.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 11:40:10 AM by sven »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 11:41:58 AM »
Well, I think I know why you're saying that about Revelation, but many believe it actually is future (or at least much of it).  I've amended my OP to reflect the preterist/non-preterist POV.

I actually have some Preterist leanings, but not everyone sees it that way, so to say it's "bad" proof is probably debatable.  IF it's future, then IMO, it actually is quite solid evidence of UR, and again, if so, I really like a lot of how Eric explains it.  Also, a side note...Eric also states that Revelation isn't "in order", that it moves back and forth some...Even for folks that don't see Revelation as future, I guess one might say "boy, if Revelation is yet to be fulfilled, it sure sounds like God would be going to bring everything and everyone to a good end".. :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 12:10:33 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline CHB

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 07:44:24 PM »
Quote from: jabcat
The Lamb's Book of Life is not a closed book, such that new names cannot be added to it.  God will continue to add new names to it as people repent and accept Jesus Christ.  Traditional Christianity does not understand this truth.  If the Lamb's Book of Life were a closed book, then why are the nations still being saved and coming into the Holy City?  Those who are privileged to be God's elect , the Bride of Christ, will actually be evangelising and helping our fellow human beings to leave the old earth and join us, God's Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

What do you think the "Book of Life" is? Is it Christ Himself? A book that has everyone's name in it and when each one dies they are taken out of it?  (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.  (Ex. 30:32-33). Or was this a book only of the Israelites?

CHB

Offline Nathan

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 08:00:17 PM »


Paul also says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) while they claim the wages of sin is everlasting torment or that death is actually a horrible everlasting live.



Great point!!!  Where is hell at there?  The wages of sin is eternal torment in hell . . .  And even if they want to lump hell in with death . . .it doesn't say anything about remaining there forever.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 08:04:06 PM »
The believers are resurrected into eternal life and the sinners are resurrected into eternal death...  :sigh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 09:38:59 PM »
willieH: Hi Sven! :hithere:

no offense, but revelation is bad to "proof" universalism

but you could ask, why they claim second death is an terrible everlasting life and not death

My questions would be, it never came in God's heart to burn in children in gehenna

Jeremiah 7:32

And have built the high places of Tophet, That are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, Which I did not command, Nor did it come up on My heart.

so why do they claim, God is going to eternally torment most of mankind in a literal or symbolic fire in the literal or allegorical valley of hinnom/gehenna?

Jesus said, we shall fear who is able to destroy both body and soul in gehenna

Matthew 10:28

And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

They say, fear him, who will keep body and soul alive to eternally torment them in gehenna.

What a wonderful verse you have noted in Jeremiah (one of my favorite books in the OT)!  It is an excellent one to use in conversing about the subject of ET/Hell!

Matt 10:28 says that He is ...ABLE... [to kill body and soul] it does NOT say that He WILL nor that He is even INCLINED to do so...  GOD's Law is AGAINST ...KILLING...  :dontknow: :dontknow:

This verse is an admonition of LOVE not a command to FEAR... re-emphasizing that "if GOD is for YOU, who can be AGAINST YOU?"... for later on in context, it speaks of GOD's loving concern for even SPARROWS, let alone His CHILDREN, whose HAIRS He "numbers" --- which notes the GREAT DETAIL of His concern... (which in my case doesn't keep Him all that busy!  :laughing7:)

...willieH   :icon_king:

Offline sven

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 10:03:03 PM »
to be honest the Jehovah Witnesses often use this verse against the teaching of hell, but they're right here

Matthew 5:43-48 is also interesting, gehenna is first mentioned in Matthew 5, now look what Jesus said, he called God their heavenly Father whom he threatened with gehenna

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.'  But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

according to these words, I can hardly imagine Jesus used gehenna as a place of everlasting torment

Offline jabcat

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 10:11:50 PM »


Paul also says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) while they claim the wages of sin is everlasting torment or that death is actually a horrible everlasting live.



Great point!!!  Where is hell at there?  The wages of sin is eternal torment in hell . . .  And even if they want to lump hell in with death . . .it doesn't say anything about remaining there forever.

and death is to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire..
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Four Questions to ET Believers
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 10:16:15 PM »
Quote from: jabcat
The Lamb's Book of Life is not a closed book, such that new names cannot be added to it.  God will continue to add new names to it as people repent and accept Jesus Christ.  Traditional Christianity does not understand this truth.  If the Lamb's Book of Life were a closed book, then why are the nations still being saved and coming into the Holy City?  Those who are privileged to be God's elect , the Bride of Christ, will actually be evangelising and helping our fellow human beings to leave the old earth and join us, God's Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

What do you think the "Book of Life" is? Is it Christ Himself? A book that has everyone's name in it and when each one dies they are taken out of it?  (Psalms 69:28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.  (Ex. 30:32-33). Or was this a book only of the Israelites?

CHB

I'm no scholar...but I think the book in Psalms is different than THE Book of Life...I also think the Book of Life is Jesus Himself and/or an "accounting" of those in Jesus...not sure...different folks have different opinions...I don't have any exact relvelation on it beyond that  :dontknow:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23