Author Topic: Matthew 24:1-35  (Read 9005 times)

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Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2011, 10:03:36 PM »
Whether it's "place of my" or just "my killing" it doesn't change the spiritual message liying beneath the natural story.  Either way, before we can reign in Christ and "see" with eyes and "hear" with ears, a death in us must first occur.
 
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Once again, this is not projecting 2,000 years into the future.  If you just take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.  The mentality with this and the church today is, what was spoken was really irrelevant to those people then, what it "really" was about, was how ugly it is in our day.  I've been hearing sermons on today's ugliness for 30 years now.  Sure would be nice to hear preachers get excited about celebrating the freedom of Christ today rather than use current status quo as a weapon to inflict shame, guilt and fear . . .and damned if ya don't kind of preachin.  The message was never about eternal hell or even God being disgusted with what he created.  The whole message was about reconciliation.  What happened with A.D. 70 was a cleansing, not a vengance.  It's all in the perspective though.  The Egyptians experienced 10 plagues whereas Israel experienced 10 keys to freedom.  Just depend on what side of the fence you're on.

But if you keep ALL of what's in this chapter in context, it's all pertaining to the religiousness of men . . .keep in mind, Jesus just rebuked the snot out of the relious leaders.  He just left the building and now he's telling them what happens once his presence is removed from the structure . . .it implodes.  And again, that's what happened in A.D. 70.  Israel imploded on itself because it embraced something that was supposed to be temporary and the system was removed, never to recover and I'll go so far to say that regardless of how many people out there believe and are anticipating the day when the temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices start up again . . . just like everything else, they are waiting for something that's not going to happen.  The temple is NOT going to be rebuilt and the sacrifices are NOT going to return either.  For them to come back would be a sacrilidge against everything Jesus did.  he was the ULTIMATE sacrifice.  God is the one that removed the system, if God removed it, I guarantee you, no man is going to be able to put it back.


 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
 
And here is where the church goes totally off the track . . .the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place is not speaking of a literal brick and mortar building anymore than Jesus was talking about raising up a literal building in three days . . ."you" are the temple of the Holy Ghost and in all of us there is an abomination of desolation every time when we give the throne of our nature over to our minds to be governed and ruled by rather than our spirit.  "that's" why there's an insertion here about letting the reader understand.  he's telling you that things just went dimensional and natural minds can't follow where this just went.




 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


When you keep all of this "in" the context, it all just fits together like a tapestry.  It's all about the day when Israel as a nation comes crashing down.  It's an ugly day . . .it took them 4000 years of history to make them the great nation and idenitified as God's chosen nation and this relgious system was the center piece of all of it . . .problem was . . .God is the true center piece and by removing him from the throne and replacing it with the religious system is . . .an abomination of desolation.  So many people point to v 21 and claim things have been worse than what they experienced that day . . .but again, they just don't get it . . .this was about the ability to have God manifest his presence through their worship . .and that was removed from them that day because they rejected the substance and chose the symbolism.  The lights just went out in Georgia.

Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2011, 10:40:08 PM »
   so then the 'wicked servan/ offspring of viperst' that beat,killed the 'son' to seize the vineyard, lost his position of oversite in the temple of God

   was 'thrown out" and assigned a position with hypocrites

   same in our day with Babylon,because of the way she treated you....

Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2011, 10:54:31 PM »
Quote
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


When you keep all of this "in" the context, it all just fits together like a tapestry.  It's all about the day when Israel as a nation comes crashing down.  It's an ugly day . . .it took them 4000 ars of history to make them the great nation and idenitified as God's chosen nation and this relgious system was the center piece of all of it . . .problem was . . .God is the true center piece and by removing him from the throne and replacing it with the religious system is . . .an abomination of desolation. 

I agree with you that what happened with the Levite priesthood and the Temple is definitely and supernaturally from God.  No other way this could have happened.  A religion that had hung on for thousands of years was suddenly 'obsolete and fading away.'

But, Israel was never a 'great nation.'  They were a minor player in the Roman Empire in those days.  Rome was the great nation of the time and Rome was not in jeopardy.  And what about this strange statement:


ye22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


There was never a question in those days of no flesh being saved.  The Roman Empire was still thriving after the fall of Jerusalem.

But, today...there is a real question.  We are being rained upon by radiation from the skies which is entering our food supply by land and by sea.  Three nuclear plants are in various stages of meltdown.  And, more.  Today one could see where this scripture might soon apply.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2011, 11:07:16 PM »

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.


Yes, he was as dead in the very first chapter yet went on to finish the Revelation.


Stating the John physically died on Patmos is an assumption.


Where are you getting that?  Re-read what Nathan wrote before you decide to nit pick posts.




(the quotes weren't showing up right shawn, so I edited to make it clearer - james)




Nitpick is one word.
   ... just sayin'.

Clever...certainly adds to the depth of conversation.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2011, 11:12:50 PM »



What?
You sore?
You struck first, didn'tcha Shawn?


Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2011, 11:31:13 PM »



What?
You sore?
You struck first, didn'tcha Shawn?

Sore? No.  Struck first?  See I believe that to be the issue with some posters.  This shouldn't be about striking, nitpicking, arguing or anything that doesn't build up other believers.  Much too often I see a believer just lay down some earth shattering truth only to have individuals come along and want to tear it down. 

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2011, 11:32:38 PM »
Terrific additions Nathan.  This is specifically the kind of discussion I was looking for on this chapter.  Our carnal minds are the abomination that causes desolation...game changer.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:44:09 PM by shawn »

Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2011, 12:13:32 AM »
  wow Shawn......'earth shattering truth" made me think of Him ruling the nations with a rod of iron :thumbsup:

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2011, 12:24:09 AM »
  wow Shawn......'earth shattering truth" made me think of Him ruling the nations with a rod of iron :thumbsup:

 :cloud9:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2011, 12:24:40 AM »



What?
You sore?
You struck first, didn'tcha Shawn?

Sore? No.  Struck first?  See I believe that to be the issue with some posters.  This shouldn't be about striking, nitpicking, arguing or anything that doesn't build up other believers.  Much too often I see a believer just lay down some earth shattering truth only to have individuals come along and want to tear it down.


Struck first?
Yes!
You did by accusing me of nit-picking Nathans post.

He made an unfounded statement.
I replied, that's all that happened.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2011, 12:27:38 AM »


Romans 8:6;
For to be carnally minded is death;
but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2011, 12:33:56 AM »



Yes, the Scriptures are earth-shattering.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2011, 12:45:34 AM »
See I believe that to be the issue with some posters. 
Much too often I see a believer just lay down some earth shattering truth only to have individuals come along and want to tear it down.




Another strike at me, Shawn!

It was not my intention to "tear down" Nathan's post.
If one of the facts is questionable, there is no harm in bringing it to light.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 01:12:18 AM by Beloved Servant »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2011, 12:57:26 AM »
If Shawn wishes to respond, after that can we get back on topic please?

Good posts, Nathan.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2011, 01:45:09 AM »
If Shawn wishes to respond, after that can we get back on topic please?

Good posts, Nathan.

No need to respond.  I would rather read and respond to the subject at hand.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2011, 02:12:53 AM »
The crazy thing here is . .. I never said Patmos was the place that John died and that was the nitpick . . . it was understood that I said he did . . .so . . .the argument going on out there is based on a misunderstanding in the first place . . .ain't that just like how our minds always work??  There reallly is just a bit more I wanted to throw out to you guys while I still have the stage on this if you don't mind.

Wow . . .I thought I'd be able to cover the whole chapter . . .but jeeze . . .this is a long friggin' chapter!!  But I digress . . .

25Behold, I have told you before.
 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


There was A LOT of these warnings coming forth to the readers.  There would be A LOT of fakes coming out of the woodwork and Jesus was trying to ingrain in them what truth sounded like so that when the fakes came, the hearer could discern the difference between the sound of truth and the noise of reasoning.  Take a look around you at all the churches and ask yiourself this question . . .which are producing sound, which are producing noise?  How can one tell the difference?  Those who reverberate the sound of truth manifest with messages of freedom, love, liberation, easy yokes . . those with religious noise produce messages of warning, alarms, reservations, caution . . .those in bondage may be able to talk about freedom, but they can't produce it.  The water in them is a stagnant pond as opposed to a flowing river.

What I'm trying to say is, church as we've known it has been duped.  The fakes are the ones running the business of religious hatcheries rather than intimate birthing rooms.  God is calling us back to the birhing room.  We must be born again . . .again in order to "see" the kingdom of God.  How many of us know people that are church chasers, running down the next revival, the best worship, the most popular teachers and preachers?  Oh . . .God is moving over there, lets go to that church!!  He's not in the desert, he's not in some secret club or society . . .the kingdom of heaven does not come by observation, it is IN YOU.  You want to see the kingdom?  Look "inward".

 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

When God shows up . . .the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea . . .it's not here or there . . .when he shows up, it'll be everywhere, all at once.  Now we get to the verse I love to play with.

 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

There are so many translations that will try to say the accurate rendition here is not eagles, but it's vultures . . .sorry . .. I disagree.  In fact, I looked this up in strongs and it ticked me off.  Because the definition went something like . .. "it appears to be saying eagles but we all know eagles don't eat dead flesh so this has to mean vultures instead . . .  To switch it to a vulture just because it doesn't "make sense" is an atrocity!

First off, what is the reason for Jesus saying this?  he's answering the "where" question.  Where will this take place?  Where the eagles gather together.  Where what will take place?  That's what this chapter has been dealing with from the beginning.  The "what" is the removal of the old covenant system.  Where will it happen?  where eagles gather together?  Are we still talking about the same thing here?  What does eagles have to do with where this happens?  The real question is . . .WHO are the eagles?  Let Scripture intrepret Scripture . . .Isaiah 40 . . .those that wait upon the Lord, shall renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings as  . . .eagles.

Who are the eagles?  Those that wait upon the Lord.  What's the connection?  This whole time frame is pertaining to the removal of the old system to make way, oh boy . . .gonna make a jump here so hang on a sec . . .but in Revelation it talks about the Euphrates river drying up . . .Euphrate's means "fruitfulness"  the river dries up in "preparation for the kings of the east."  Church taught me to believe this is talking about China accumulating a million soldiers to march in on Jerusalem and make war . . .PUH-LEEEZE . .  this is talking about the fruitfulness of carnal minds, of religious mindsets, they are going to dry up in preparation for the kings . . .Revelation also says "WE" are kings AND priests.  That was actually against the law.  You couldn't be a king "and" a priest.  Anyeay, these just aren't any kings, these guys are kings of the "east".  East speaks of resurrection . .the rising of the son.  It's saying religion will dry up and give way to sons of God who have a message of resurrection life on their tongues rather than control and intimidation.

The eagles are the true believers . . .Jerusalem is where the church was born out of the side of Jesus, blood and water, then manifested later in the upper room . . .Jerusalem is where the eagles gathered together because "that's" where the carcass was . . .what was the carcass?  Did Jesus not say we must eat his flesh and drink his blood?  he is the carcass that draws the eagles together and that is "where" these things shall be.

 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Whenever you say "tribulation" to a religious person, their eyes roll back into their heads and they put on a face of fright and immediately revert to the destruction of the world as we know it.  And everything that carries with it as well actually . . .lots of doom and gloom . . .But again, this is not literal in the sense that the stars are literally going to fall from the sky.  But prophetically, Israel represents the sun, moon and stars by way of Joseph, the kid with a super colorful coat his Dad made him . .he had the dream where he saw the sun and moon bow down to him along with twelve stars . . .it was depicting his family, but it was also the infrastructure of Israel's heritage.  When the old covenant was removed, Israel went dark.  She lost her sense of identity.


30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There's so much in this chapter . . .but I'm almost out of time so this will be it for today . . . I hope you guys are having as much fun reading this as I am in sharing it . . .there's a charge being released here . . .anyway . . .I will say this is a HUGE verse, but it's not what we've been taught to think it means.

This verse is revealing the reason "why" these things shall be.  There was lots of dark tension settling in over the first part . . .which happens a lot when you're describing hell for someone . .Jesus was explaining the hell they were about to encounter and at the lowest point, Israel's lights went out . . .'THEN' . . .that's a word implying a shift in the storyline. 

This is going to happen where the eagles gather together . . .where the righteous who know the sound of my voice within them gather around "me"  . ."and then" . . .a sign shall APPEAR unto them the tribes of my earth will mourn . . .tribes of who?  Tribes of what?  the earth . . .anything that is connected to earth is not godly, spiritual or heavenly . .it's carnal.  Those with carnal minds will mourn for Israel being wiped out . . but . . .to the eagles . . .they will see the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven . . .in other words . . .they're eyes are now opened and where natural people see death and destruction, the eagles see the son of man surrounded in witnesses (Hebrews 12:1) proclaiming his glory

 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Hmmm . . .another "gathering".  Still thnk this has to do with the end of the earth as we know it?  The removal of the old covenant system HAD to happen because those in the old covenant could not see the true nature of Jesus.  But those who transitioned from old to new were the ones in the clouds with him which is where eagles soar, in the jetstreams of truth, of life and of freedom.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2011, 02:23:35 AM »
The crazy thing here is . .. I never said Patmos was the place that John died and that was the nitpick . . .

Now wait a cotton-pickin' minute Brother Nathan.
Y'aint leaving me left holding the bag; read your quote below:




. . .when John received the Revelation at the place of his killing (Patmos),

That statement, as written, informs the reader that John died there.



Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2011, 02:54:17 AM »
The crazy thing here is . .. I never said Patmos was the place that John died and that was the nitpick . . .

Now wait a cotton-pickin' minute Brother Nathan.
Y'aint leaving me left holding the bag; read your quote below:




. . .when John received the Revelation at the place of his killing (Patmos),

That statement, as written, informs the reader that John died there.

Not to keep it going but that is what was printed. Im figuring that Bro. Nathan was assuming and he may be correct. Peace
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2011, 03:00:17 AM »
He clarified in this post  http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/matthew_24135_9897.msg126696.html#msg126696

that the assumption he was under, was that most knew the meaning of Patmos as being "the place of his killing".

I believe he was attaching symbolic and spiritual meaning.

His last post was on topic and good for edification.   

Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2011, 03:07:59 AM »
 I loved the understanding about the eagles....King of Babylon had to grow hair like eagles feathers..and be wetted with dew of heaven

   Ezekiel 10;14  Each of the cherubim had four faces..one was an eagle :grin:   synomonous with Michael...the Prince of your people...

    should of known  Rev 8;13 and 12;14   a third of the day was without light[8 hours sleeping/nite/all virgins slept] should of known

   His body was not dead..but asleep!...the woman was given the two wings of a great eagle..so that she might fly to 'THE PLACE PREPARED FOR HER

  Michael means 'who is like GOD"?

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2011, 03:09:10 AM »
Friend I take exception. For me, without accepting that it is speaking of eagles and not vultures, what you say I dont think is sound. Should they be vultures, how then do we understand this part of the parable?  Its only an atrocity if it is not vultures.

"There are so many translations that will try to say the accurate rendition here is not eagles, but it's vultures . . .sorry . .. I disagree.  In fact, I looked this up in strongs and it ticked me off.  Because the definition went something like . .. "it appears to be saying eagles but we all know eagles don't eat dead flesh so this has to mean vultures instead . . .  To switch it to a vulture just because it doesn't "make sense" is an atrocity!
OT
BDB Definition:
1) eagle, vulture, griffon-vulture
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from an unused root meaning to lacerate
NT
Thayer Definition:
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Milita
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2011, 03:23:08 AM »
read about two eagles and a vine the Lord planted  Ezekiel 17;7   But there was another great eagle with powerful wings and full plumage...

   the vine now sent out it's roots toward him....

    Ezekiel 17;22  This what the Sovereign Lord says...I will take the shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it on a high and lofty mountain

    On the mountain heights of Israel I will plant it. All the trees of the feild will know that I the Lord bring down the tall tree,and make the low

   tree grow tall.I dry up the green tree and make the dry tree flourish

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2011, 07:46:44 AM »
I never said Patmos was the place that John died and that was the nitpick . . .
Some info that may be relevant:
Patmos means "my killing"
The Roman historian Tertullian recorded the event of John's exection. John was cast in a pot of boiling oil, a common execution method at that time. But John didn't die. He just kept preaching in that pot.
After that failed execution the Romans exiled him to their prison island to work in the mines. That island was Patmos.
Working conditions were not the best as you can imagine. Most died on that island. John was released. (when a new emperor took office?)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 08:05:04 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2011, 07:56:02 AM »
I think that's INCREDIBLE information!  Things I didn't know.  Sounds like John was miraculously very much alive, "though he were dead"!

All that was no accident.  God still had an as-yet-to-be-completed mission for him.  That's a faith-builder.  :angelharp:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2011, 08:03:12 AM »
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

There are so many translations that will try to say the accurate rendition here is not eagles, but it's vultures . . .sorry . .. I disagree.  In fact, I looked this up in strongs and it ticked me off.  Because the definition went something like . .. "it appears to be saying eagles but we all know eagles don't eat dead flesh so this has to mean vultures instead . . .  To switch it to a vulture just because it doesn't "make sense" is an atrocity!
Secular warning. Eagle also refers to a Roman legion. Their banner. And in a way where they appear is death/carcasses.
Read THIS on the eagles. Hoax or not? Dunno....
An other view about shepherds feeding on their flock

Another view is that believers are eagles and believers are were the carcas is. At the cross of the dead Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...