Author Topic: Matthew 24:1-35  (Read 8954 times)

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Offline shawn

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Matthew 24:1-35
« on: August 11, 2011, 08:00:31 PM »
Both of my parents have been asking about universal reconciliation, what I believe etc.  They are certainly open and curious.  But, for whatever reason Matthew 24 is a problem for him.  I didn't want to discuss the details with him before I checked in here.  I believe Matthew 24 is speaking about the judgment of 70 A.D. and everything within that chapter refers to that judgment.

Thoughts?  Does this correlate with Revelations?  I'm thinking not, because of the Great White Throne Judgment appears to be something else entirely.

Any help would be appreciated.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 08:12:28 PM »
Also, while looking at these verses...if I'm reading this correctly...to take a preterist interpretation of these verses must you believe that Jesus has already come back?  Also, what about some of the other prophecies that haven't been fulfilled yet?

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 08:28:01 PM »
 and will cut him in two, 70  and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The cut him in two, which stage of hell does that take place in?  Is that right after the rapists but before Hitler?   

Sorry for the sarcasm, I know this is serious, and I'm praying that it goes well, and your parents awake to the good news of great joy for all people.

But whats the point of being cut in two if you're going to burn forever?  The word there is dichotomy btw, kind of interesting.  Maybe it has to do with separating the old man from the new?

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 09:16:13 PM »
and will cut him in two, 70  and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The cut him in two, which stage of hell does that take place in?  Is that right after the rapists but before Hitler?   

Sorry for the sarcasm, I know this is serious, and I'm praying that it goes well, and your parents awake to the good news of great joy for all people.

But whats the point of being cut in two if you're going to burn forever?  The word there is dichotomy btw, kind of interesting.  Maybe it has to do with separating the old man from the new?

It appears that this is symbolic language for God dealing harshly with wicked servants.  I agree that it doesn't support ET but it doesn't answer my questions about Matthew 24. 

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 09:56:32 PM »
sorry thats all I've got.  What exactly is the problem of Matthew 24 for your dad?

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 11:08:50 PM »
sorry thats all I've got.  What exactly is the problem of Matthew 24 for your dad?

I'm really not sure.  For whatever reason he believes this chapter supports hell.  But, when I was getting into it, I realized that I am not sure if Jesus is talking about 70 AD here or something else entirely.  I wanted a discussion on that particular topic.

Offline CHB

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 12:51:29 AM »
Hi Shawn,

(Matt. 24:3) the disciples ask Jesus when would these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world/age? Notice they ask when the end of the AGE would be?  Personally I think Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70AD. I don't think all prophecy has been fulfilled though.

CHB

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 02:54:20 AM »
Let's have some fun!!!

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

There is so SOOOO much going on in this chapter . . .I would LOVE to set down with your parents and just take a couple hours walking them through it . . .but . . .here we is.

First off, keep in mind just how hard Jesus came down on the pharisees and religious leaders while he was "in" the temple.  The terrible seven woes, the vipers, the serpents . . .their despise for him and his disdain for what they were doing with the law of life as they conformed people with the fear of death with it.  The disciples were right there, hearing the passion of righteous judment come from his lips and they were still cringing at the fact that he just unloaded on the most prestigious of men.  So . . .the idea that they were pointing out the wonderful works of men outside the temple isn't a coincidence.  It's like you just got a serious chewing out from your Dad and then your mom steps in and tries to soften up the harshness of what your Dad just said.  That's really what the disciples were doing.  They were trying to show Jesus all the great efforts the religious leaders put into these great monuments of the religion.  Jesus would have none of it because what the disciples were missing was, Jesus was everything these religious traditions symbolized.  and the fact that he's here now in the flesh meant that there was no longer going to be a need for the symbolization.  But because the religious were embracing the symbol instead of the substance, rather than being transformed into celebration, they were going to be disassembled in violence.  It was their choice.


The first thing this chapter is showing is . . .Jesus is turning his back on the religious system.  Literally, Jesus has left the building.  This sets the stage for the rest of the entire chapter, it's not about the end of the earth, it's about the end of the age of the Old Covenant system.  Everything from that point on is specifically about the destruction of not only the temple, but also of the entire religious establishment.  We ain't in Kansas anymore!!  The renting of the veil was going to be just the beginning of what was still to come to them. 

Not one stone will be left on top of the other . . .I'm not even going to begin going into the spiritual implications of that because that's not what you asked for.  What I will tell you is, it is most assuredly connected to Revelation.  Don't let the great white throne judgment lead you away from everything else that is symbolically aligned with what they were going to literally experience.  That's the one thing that still gits my griddle . . .all the years I've spent in church, not one time was there ever mentioned of the atrocities that took place in A.D. 70.  People point their finger to what Hitler did with the Jews . . .millions of them, they say he tortured and murdered.  Well, according to Josephus . . .if you haven't, I'd recomend you read up on the book of Martyrs . . .that's the name of it . . ."The Book of Martyrs".  In it you'll find just how real and torturous those days were . . .the torturing of Christians wasn't by any means just a one time event, but A.D. 70 marks the year when the old religious system was removed.

Those buildings Jesus was pointing to that day were literally torn down brick by brick not because a bomb hit them, but because there was said to be gold lining in between them and the Roman's tore them down for the gold.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Now think about this for a minute.  What the church wants you to believe is . . .Jesus just foretold of a great destruction literally to those buildings, the disciples were seriously concerned so they ask him "when" . . .the diagnose is fatal . . .it's no longer a matter of "if", but "when".  They were beginning to realize the magnitude of why Jesus was here and just how deeply the effects of his life would reach.  So Jesus, in all the ominous tension that had built up among them by then, chose to jump ahead to 2000 years later and begin talking about the end of the earth as "we" know it . ...

Really? 

I think if you just slow this whole thing down . . .you say they're somewhat open to hearing you . . .first thing is, lay down the preconceived ideas of what others have "taught" them.  God is about to personally show them something all together different.

Everything in Matthew 24, in Daniie's dream with the book he was told to seal up and . . .in Revelation as well . . .this was a huge deal.  This was pertaining to the identity of an entire nation!!  It was going to get ugly . . .it was on their minds for the next 40 years through all of their ministries . . .when John received the Revelation at the place of his killing (Patmos), it was a generation later and the time had come for what Jesus prepared them with in Matthew 24 to litterally unfold . . .

I would love to keep going through this chapter . . .but I'm out of time.

The bottom line is . . .this has EVERYTHING to do with the destruction of the old religious system.  It has NOTHING to do with our generation or our earth being destroyed . . .it has nothing to do with US at all.  It's not a revelation of the end of the earth as we know it . . .or of the destruction of men or of the salvation of saints.  It's a revelation of Jesus Christ, the very one the entire old system was patterned after.  So it's no wonder when Jesus did reveal his nature to John, that it was about the removal of the old system and the establishing of the celebrative new lineage.

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 03:19:36 AM »
Nathan this is blowing my mind right now.  I have never read anything like it.  Anytime you get more time...please continue.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2011, 03:41:55 AM »
But we haven't seen the end of the age yet.

"All right," Jesus replied. "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
--John 2:19


It is a double prophecy.  It began in 33ad at the cross.  But, the old system, Babylon, is still with us.  It is making its last play for world dominance as we speak.

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2011, 04:02:55 AM »
I know that it doesn't necessarily directly allude to Matthew 24:1-35, but there is a good document from Dr. Bob Wilson about Jesus' usage of 'Gehenna' here: http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=1269, which can be downloaded from his first post.

I like Nathan's enthusiasm!  :thumbsup:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2011, 04:23:35 AM »



I like Nathan's enthusiasm too, BUT...


when John received the Revelation at the place of his killing


How do you know John was killed on Patmos?



Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2011, 04:46:39 AM »
I know that it doesn't necessarily directly allude to Matthew 24:1-35, but there is a good document from Dr. Bob Wilson about Jesus' usage of 'Gehenna' here: http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=1269, which can be downloaded from his first post.

I like Nathan's enthusiasm!  :thumbsup:

Much good stuff to glean from that.  Thanks for the link.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 09:10:20 AM »



I like Nathan's enthusiasm too, BUT...


when John received the Revelation at the place of his killing
John died of old age in Ephesus (Turkey). I'm just guessing Nathan knows that and is speaking about something spiritual :winkgrin:


How do you know John was killed on Patmos?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 03:26:17 PM »
I was going on an assumption that most people knew the definition of "Patmos".  It literally means "place of my killing".  Nothing is as it seems guys.  That's why I try not to get too deep into debates on surface issues . . .the natural stories are merely gateways leading into spiritual truths.  Several instances Scripture uses the phrast "things above the earth, on the earth and under the earth . . .I believe it's spiritual speaking to dimensional truths.  The literal story laying on the surface of the earth, being the "above the earth" the moral value is "in" the story being "on" the earth and the spiritual truth beneath the story would then be that which is "under" the earth.  Before John could even receive a revelation of Jesus, he first had to come to . . .the place of his killing .. as do we all.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 03:45:02 PM »
But we haven't seen the end of the age yet.

"All right," Jesus replied. "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
--John 2:19


It is a double prophecy.  It began in 33ad at the cross.  But, the old system, Babylon, is still with us.  It is making its last play for world dominance as we speak.

Um . . .I kinda see it that way, kinda not . . .I've heard this terminology before, I used to use it but really, there's no place in Scripture that supports the idea of "double prophecies".  The prophecies literally given were to unfold LITERALLY UPON THOSE TO WHOM THEY WERE SENT TO . . .  In this case, Jesus was referring to his body as the temple . . .now . . .having said that I do think there are multiple DIMENSIONS to that declaration of being raised up in three days.  And perhaps it's just the terminology that's our only difference here.  I don't see prophecies repeating themselves naturally but I do see them having dimensional applications. 

They "thought" he was talking literally about brick and mortar buildings . . .as I mentioned before, we now know that he was refering to his literal body of flesh as the temple being raised up in a literal three days.  But I also see "we" to are temples as individuals, but also we are living stones assembled together to bond together creating one massive, living, breathing corporate temple.  And in "that" sense, I see that in a prophetical three days . . .or . . a day is a thousand years . .principle, that two days have passed and "we" are alive at the dawning of that third day when the resurrection occurs and as such, the atmosphere . . .the invisible, spiritual atmosphere around us has changed from one of a religious, politically correct and "propper" church system that was seated in laboring minds to one that is being resurrected from that labor and being realigned and repositioned into an identity of REST in the FINISHED works.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 05:36:04 PM »
I was going on an assumption that most people knew the definition of "Patmos".  It literally means "place of my killing".  Nothing is as it seems guys.  That's why I try not to get too deep into debates on surface issues . . .the natural stories are merely gateways leading into spiritual truths.  Several instances Scripture uses the phrast "things above the earth, on the earth and under the earth . . .I believe it's spiritual speaking to dimensional truths.  The literal story laying on the surface of the earth, being the "above the earth" the moral value is "in" the story being "on" the earth and the spiritual truth beneath the story would then be that which is "under" the earth.  Before John could even receive a revelation of Jesus, he first had to come to . . .the place of his killing .. as do we all.





Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.


Yes, he was as dead in the very first chapter yet went on to finish the Revelation.


Stating that John physically died on Patmos is an assumption.





« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:08:17 PM by Beloved Servant »

Offline shawn

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 05:47:16 PM »

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.


Yes, he was as dead in the very first chapter yet went on to finish the Revelation.


Stating the John physically died on Patmos is an assumption.


Where are you getting that?  Re-read what Nathan wrote before you decide to nit pick posts.




(the quotes weren't showing up right shawn, so I edited to make it clearer - james)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:37:28 PM by jabcat »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 06:00:26 PM »
No, I wasn't stating that John physically died on Patmos . .. I was saying John received the revelation from Jesus AT THE PLACE OF HIS KILLING.  I'm pretty sure when he did die physically, it wasn't there, Patmos is a prison on an island . . .like Alkatraz . . .

Play time again . . .only got a few minutes though . . .
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This was happening on a regular basis, there are even accounts in Scripture where men claimed to be sent by God, if I'm not mistaken, one of those times were either when Paul was in prison or Peter . . .I think it may have been Peter.  They wanted to kill him but one religious leader who did see truth in what the disciples were preaching advised him . . .let him go, if he's a fake, it'll be just like . . .and he said some guy's name but I don't remember what it was.  But the guy ended up getting himself killed.  But he went on to say, if the things Peter is saying are true and you go and kill him, you don't want that kind of blood on your hands . .but there were people popping up all over the place claiming they were the Christ . . .that's actually one of the major factors in why the canon was formed in the first place.  Too many guys were out there writing books and claiming their message was the Christ message when most of them were frauds.

 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Again, all of this was transpiring all around them leading up to AD 70 and when it actually did happen, it wasn't because an outside nation wanted over run Israel, it was because the religious "in" Israel turned on each other and the Roman's were originally trying to get control of the civil fighing.

 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

I know people always point to the weather in their back yards and use this Scripture as evidence of what's coming . . as in the end of the world, but there's just no way this is about the condition of the earth 2,000 years after the fact.

 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And here's a really good sign that this is NOT pertaining to our generation.  Jesus is talking to THEM directly.  If he were referring to generations to come, he would say "this is not for you, live in peace for the things I've described will come to pass at a later time . . .God told that to Daniel . . .but not here.  Here he didn't say nations are going to hate "us" or nations are now hating Israel so that must mean now . . .he's talking TO THEM.  Same as when the angels proclaimed at the ascension . . .Just as YOU saw him go, YOU will see him return . . .it's not about us . . its a message TO THEM.


Offline CHB

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 07:19:09 PM »
Hi Nathan,

Enjoyed what you said here and I agree. A lot of other things in the Bible are just like this but most of religions of the world try to apply it to themselves. I do think that not all things have happened yet but most of it has.

CHB

Offline Nathan

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2011, 08:02:08 PM »
I have 8 minutes . . .
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

If you think about this, Jesus came and established a completely different message than what they were raised in.  Many embraced, many didn't.  So you gotta know that once he was no longer physically there, those that didn't accept him had to have been closing in on those that did . . .I mean, even "during" Jesus time here, he had the biggest fan that ever lived in John the Baptist and even HE got to the point where he lost his focus and began questioning who Jesus was.  If John the baptist did, then ya gotta know pretty much everyone else would have been getting a little shaky in their faith after a time as well.  At that time, brothers were turning in their own Fathers and visa versa . .. and many were seeing their own family members getting yanked out of their homes and slaughtered in front of their houses with their families looking on.  All in the name of religion.

And then the false prophets came in and started effectively leading even more people away.  Ever read Galatians?  Paul immediately goes into a rebuke against them for leaving law for life, only to return to law again because someone deceived them.  This is another one that the church uses over and over again whenever they hear a message that contradicts their own.  They immediately point their finger and use the false prophet/teacher card . . .as if the church NEVER adopted false teachings at IT'S CONCEPTION and now that truth is really being pronounced, they've been in the false side of things for so long, they don't even recognize the truth when it punches them right between the ears.

 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come

In the book of Acts, there is a passage that actually states the gospel had reached the ends of the earth . . . people today are still misinterpreting this and thinking it means that the end of this earth will come once men finally hit that one last lost tribe in Africa . . . Puh-leeze . ..  I'd rant more on that buy my 8 minutes were up 2 minutes ago.

Offline Molly

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 08:17:08 PM »
Nathan
Quote
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come

Why does this all sound so familiar? lol  Could it be we have been in the last days, all three of them, since Jesus came to earth in the flesh?  And, these things are just playing themselves out, one after another, for each generation until the end?



 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 08:18:55 PM »
. . . people today are still misinterpreting this and thinking it means that the end of this earth will come once men finally hit that one last lost tribe in Africa . . . Puh-leeze . ..




Apparently, that lost tribe was found 2000 years ago:
Romans 1:20;
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen,
                                                                                                  being understood from what has been made,
                                                                                                            so that men are without excuse
                                                                                                                                !



Offline micah7:9

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2011, 09:26:50 PM »

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.


Yes, he was as dead in the very first chapter yet went on to finish the Revelation.


Stating the John physically died on Patmos is an assumption.


Where are you getting that?  Re-read what Nathan wrote before you decide to nit pick posts.




(the quotes weren't showing up right shawn, so I edited to make it clearer - james)

I must agree with Beloved on the Patmos assumption thing. I could only find in Thayer Patmos means "my killing," not "place of my killing."

Otherwise I find Nathans post interesting :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Matthew 24:1-35
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2011, 09:44:29 PM »

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.


Yes, he was as dead in the very first chapter yet went on to finish the Revelation.


Stating the John physically died on Patmos is an assumption.


Where are you getting that?  Re-read what Nathan wrote before you decide to nit pick posts.




(the quotes weren't showing up right shawn, so I edited to make it clearer - james)




Nitpick is one word.
   ... just sayin'.