James White's objections need to be addressed

[myrddin]

Hi Everyone,
I came around recently to God's desire to reconcile everyone only recently.  I've been a fan of reformed apologist James White, and I still listen to him, as he tries to stay Biblical in everything he teaches.  (But to me he seems to fall into the unconscious desire to hold onto Damnationism.)  At any rate, I find him much more intelligent and sophisticated than any other apologist, and his objections to Universalism must be addressed, because he raises some good points.  Anyone care to try:  http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4855 ?  I have a few thoughts.

[micah7:9]

Lets have them thought of yours. I went to that site and well rather than open that door, I would appreciate your thoughts for right now. Thanks

[myrddin]

Argh!    Unfortunately I wrote them down on my computer at home, and didn't put it in a google doc.  I'll post them tonight.  I believe Dr. White's main concern was that God must be free to display all of His attributes, for His own self-glorification.  (I agree with this.)  The only way to do that is to save some sinners by grace (which by definition must not be demanded of Him), and to justly condemn the rest of the sinners and leave them there forever.  (I don't agree with this, because it disagrees with Scripture and has a warped view of justice.)

[Nathan]

Not only that, but it also disagrees with God's nature.  God-is-love.  He is not death.  He doesn't give us what he doesn't have in him.  He is light, he gives us light.  He is endless, he gives us abundance.  He is peace, he gives us rest.  All of the opposites to those things are from the carnaltiy in us, not from the purity in him.  He's ways are righteous.  They are just.  His judgments are righteous.  By handing judgment upon us, that action purges us and we "become" righteous.  There is no place in heaven for death . . . if death is purified in the lake of fire, how then can people still be bound to it?

[Sherman]

White's argument that the freedom of God demands that some be ultimately condemned to ECT is ludicrous.  If God is "free" then He can choose to save everyone if He desires such. 

His rebuttal to Col.1:20 is weak in that it appeals to humanity being different than the stars or the earth, things not created in the image of God.  How this supports his position I don't understand. We do not disagree that there is an inherent difference between humanity and the rest of creation.  He also implies that there is another meaning for reconciliation, that does not imply bringing back into unity two waring parties. But he doesn't offer this different meaning. And White questions why Paul said "If you continue in the faith" to those who have been reconciled.  But all this does is recognize that even after having been reconciled, people have the free-will to turn from Christ and there to be problems in their relationship with God. 

His rebuttal of Phil.2.10 is also very weak saying that some will confess/bow but such will not indicate a change in heart but only an acknowledgment that Jesus is God. Problem with this is that "confess" is a weak translation of exomologeo which means to "acknowledge openly and joyfully", and bow which is a universal sign of surrender, worship, honor.  Also, this is a quote of Isa.45:23 which in context is speaking of salvation, and the word for confess is shawbah which means to "swear and allegiance to".

He wonders why when people die, their character would be made perfect.  He fails to recognize the purpose of God's judgment where the fire of truth burns the hell out of us, purges us from all evil.  I wonder if he's experienced the judgment of God?  I have and it's terrible, but it changed me forever. 

And just a noter, something that irritates me in his reading of these passages is his trying to make light of them through his tone, instead of taking them seriously.

Concerning Rom.5 White says that Paul is presenting Two humanities, one In Adam and one In Christ.  How in the world he arrives at this from the text is beyond me!  Paul is comparing the universal effect of the sin of Adam with the universal effect of the sacrifice of Christ, except Paul notes that the sacrifice of Christ is even greater for it not only overcomes Adam's sin, but all of our subsequent sins.   

Well, I only listened to this point.  White comes across to me as arrogant and dismissive, not really wrestling with either the text or the arguments in favor of UR.  Of course his understanding of the Judgment is radically different than mine.  I believe Judgment is a means of reconciliation. In order for there to be reconciliation we must understand and acknowledge the truth concerning ourselves and God, and we must repent from it.  When a person encounters the holiness of God it will kill you; you will die to all selfishness.  The fire of truth will burn the hell out of you - Reality Discipline in the Extreme! 

Being White's a Calvinist, it seems to me that He'd recognize that salvation is completely an act of God.  It is something that God does in us.  God raises us from the dead, delivers us from slavery.  But many of White's arguments are stated from a position of us needing to repent, making a choice to follow God.  I wish he'd make up his mind; is it God's sovereignty that he appeals to or human autonomy! 

For me, it was seeing that the UR passages seemed to evidently affirm UR that compelled me to study the passages on Hell to reaffirm my traditional infernalist beliefs.  But when I got into the passages that I thought affirmed ECT, only to find out that that there is little, if any, evidence in scripture for Hell, I was dumbfounded, scared.  As I studied these passages on the judgment of sin though it became clearer and clearer to me that the purpose of judment and punishment is the mitigation of evil and ultimately reconciliation. 

Oh well, I hope this helped a little.

[myrddin]

Thanks, Sherman.  I appreciate all your points. 

Dr. White's point is that God doesn't desire to save everyone, so He doesn't have to.  Grace, to be grace, can't be forced.  God can do what He wants.  I understand the principle, but how this leads to a multitude of people burning for eternity (even if it is from their own seething anger at God and the Righteous) is a bit beyond me.

Dr. White does come off as arrogant and dismissive, but having listened to him for 4 years now, I'm able to filter that out to get to the stuff behind it, and it's usually very cogent and well thought out (e.g., on Trinitarian issues).  He's actually helped me become a better Universalist, because he defines what's at stake, even when he's wrong.

I had to do a double take on his comment on Colossians 1:20.  Doesn't "all things" include us humans?  And you bring up a good point that reconciliation implies that two formerly warring parties are now at peace with each other.  James White depicts the inhabitants of Hell as continually spitting out their hatred of God and the inhabitants of heaven, and their resentment forms the greater part of their torment.  I don't see how this is reconciliation.

Philippians 2:10.  I was unaware until recently of the open and joyful connotations of exomologeo.  Nice.  But in context of the OT passage (Is. 45:23) you cited, in v. 24 there is this statement "...all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed", so be careful--the Damnationists might still find a loophole here.

Regarding the assumption that people are made perfect when they die:  I think it's a valid concern.  Why is this assumed?  However, Dr. White follows the other common assumption (not found in Scripture) that there are no chances to repent after death; therefore, any punishment after death is only punitive, not correctional.  He gave a passing reference to Hebrews 9:27 ("And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"), as though judgment means no further chances and therefore bolsters eternal torment.  So, challenging the idea that people are made perfect upon death isn't much of a challenge, because there's plenty of room for correctional punishment (i.e., kolasis).  But Dr. White is attached to his tradition.

Rom. 5 *has* to present two humanities, otherwise Damnationism is false!    Well, everyone has a systematic theology:  some are just better and more coherent and better conforming to the data (i.e., God's revelation in the Scriptures) than others.  I think Romans 5 argues for Universalism, but one verse that may posit two humanities is v. 17:  "...much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ."  But the klinker for UR is v. 18, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." and I don't see how a possible delimiter (only slightly possibly seen in v. 17) can weigh in on such a bold clear statement in v. 18.

Yes, Dr. White is a Calvinist, and before I understood (with Tentmaker's help) that Gehenna isn't eternal, I became a Calvinist largely due to his influence.  He's a Compatibilist, which means God's sovereignty works *with* people's wills (or sometimes against).  I agree with him.  The key is that there is no "autonomous free will", i.e., a will that has some miraculous random element to it that allows one to decide differently if presented twice with the same option.  The will is solely a function of the nature, and the nature presents desires, from which the Willer chooses the strongest or most compelling.  And the Biblical data (Acts 4:27-28, Genesis 50:20, Isaiah 10:5-7, etc.) seems to favor this view.  Okay, another thread.  But I don't think Dr. White needs to make up his mind:  it is up to us to repent and believe, but those who end up repenting and believing are the ones God has decreed will do so.  The God who ordained the end also ordains the means (preachers, people who tell the good news, Bible writers, etc.).  And I don't think this is his way of having his cake and eating it too.

I didn't come at UR from the force of the universalistic passages.  Hell has always bugged me, from day 1 of being a Christian.  It didn't seem just and I kept trying to figure out ways to make it just.  Then it went on the back burner for a while.  But when I realized that aionios doesn't mean eternal (at least that's not the preferred meaning), the whole house of cards of ECT came falling down and I saw how flimsy the whole structure is.  I mean, is that all the verses you Damnationists have to bolster such a horrid idea??  What a joke!  In fact, I'm listening right now to one Sinclair Lewis (Scottish Reformed professor) about Hell, and I just keep shaking my head.  He won't even address the meaning of aionios!  These poor damnationists are struggling under such a massive burden of a horrible doctrine, and they're trying their best to put on a brave face.  I wish they could just let it go.

[eaglesway]

Of course the scripture says that God DOES desire to save everyone, and has made provision for everyone

1 Tim 2:4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

1 John 2:1,2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


And the scriptures says that God causes ALL THINGS to work according to the counsel of His will,  and has made the mystery of the salvation of all known to any who seek the truth,  

Eph 1: 7-11 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory

especially to us, who will participate in the full redemption of the whole creation

Ro 8:18-21 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Because in the end, Every knee shall bow, Every enemy will be subjected, Everyone ever created will be reconciled, and God will be ALL IN ALL

Phillipians 2:9,10 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were created through Him and for Him. And He is before ALL THINGS, and in Him ALL THINGS consist.  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in ALL THINGS He may have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,  and by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Lest we doubt the Word of our Lord who said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me", all men drawn by his infinite love untill ALL are in God and God is in ALL."

Romans 11:32-36 For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.

 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?  Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. 

[redhotmagma]

Of course the scripture says that God DOES desire to save everyone, and has made provision for everyone

1 Tim 2:4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

1 John 2:1,2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


And the scriptures says that God causes ALL THINGS to work according to the counsel of His will,  and has made the mystery of the salvation of all known to any who seek the truth,  

Eph 1: 7-11 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory

especially to us, who will participate in the full redemption of the whole creation

Ro 8:18-21 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Because in the end, Every knee shall bow, Every enemy will be subjected, Everyone ever created will be reconciled, and God will be ALL IN ALL

Phillipians 2:9,10 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were created through Him and for Him. And He is before ALL THINGS, and in Him ALL THINGS consist.  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in ALL THINGS He may have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,  and by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Lest we doubt the Word of our Lord who said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me", all men drawn by his infinite love untill ALL are in God and God is in ALL."

Romans 11:32-36 For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.

 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?  Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. 

 

[eaglesway]

:o)

[WhiteWings]

Regarding the assumption that people are made perfect when they die:  I think it's a valid concern.  Why is this assumed?

From indirect evidence.
If all will bow to Jesus and no sin will enter New Jerusalem then something must be done after death because it's obvious that far from everyone on this planet classifies as a good Christian.

[CHB]

Regarding the assumption that people are made perfect when they die:  I think it's a valid concern.  Why is this assumed?

From indirect evidence.
If all will bow to Jesus and no sin will enter New Jerusalem then something must be done after death because it's obvious that far from everyone on this planet classifies as a good Christian.

What if those who are not Christians are resurrected in the flesh as they were when they died and are taught by God and those who have been changed into immortality? This happening during the millennium.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

(Revelation 14:10 [CLV])
he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin."



to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal


Something like that?

[thinktank]

(Revelation 14:10 [CLV])
he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin."



to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal


Something like that?

I listened to that on Garys video, a few weeks ago.

It does resonate with the parables of Jesus, and also scriptures say that the wicked will repay. I will recompense.

[Jeremias]

Of course the scripture says that God DOES desire to save everyone, and has made provision for everyone

1 Tim 2:4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

1 John 2:1,2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


And the scriptures says that God causes ALL THINGS to work according to the counsel of His will,  and has made the mystery of the salvation of all known to any who seek the truth,  

Eph 1: 7-11 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory

especially to us, who will participate in the full redemption of the whole creation

Ro 8:18-21 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Because in the end, Every knee shall bow, Every enemy will be subjected, Everyone ever created will be reconciled, and God will be ALL IN ALL

Phillipians 2:9,10 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were created through Him and for Him. And He is before ALL THINGS, and in Him ALL THINGS consist.  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in ALL THINGS He may have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,  and by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Lest we doubt the Word of our Lord who said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me", all men drawn by his infinite love untill ALL are in God and God is in ALL."

Romans 11:32-36 For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.

 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?  Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. 

This is a gem of a post EW!!  Someone should make a poster of it!!  Our Father, the God of the Universe, NEVER FAILS!!  He is Victorious!!  He is Good!! 

 

[eaglesway]

I am blessed it was a blessing :o)

[dajomaco]

All
How much we want to give you.
All
What have you required.
All
Mostly more than most.
All
the sons and daughters of man.
All
the sons and daughters of God
All
of creation.
All
of the cry's of Israel.
All
of humanities hurting.
All
My God My God My God   
All
Lifted up.
All
drawn near.
All
reconciled
All
thoughts captive
All
flesh dead
All
receive inner peace
All
that is holy
All
That is pure
All
to the end before the start
All
the wisdom of the universe
All
the host shall see
All
Jesus did for me.
All
others
All
disappear
All
of God draws near.
All
of love appears.
All
the vanquished fears.
All
I say, I say to
All.

[eaglesway]

yes, indeed- All in ALL

[legoman]

Argh!    Unfortunately I wrote them down on my computer at home, and didn't put it in a google doc.  I'll post them tonight.  I believe Dr. White's main concern was that God must be free to display all of His attributes, for His own self-glorification.  (I agree with this.)  The only way to do that is to save some sinners by grace (which by definition must not be demanded of Him), and to justly condemn the rest of the sinners and leave them there forever.  (I don't agree with this, because it disagrees with Scripture and has a warped view of justice.)

Most of the problem with mainstream "churchianity", and mankind in general, is when you get right down to it, they can't identify good & evil, and thus are evil in some sense themselves.  It affects us all. This is why there is so much war, greed, hate, corruption at all levels of our society.

Anyway, they have no problem saying it is just that someone be tortured forever (as long as it is not themselves) - and so you notice most will say they are saved but others deserve to be tortured forever.  They have justified it in their own mind and assume God must be like this.

This leads to twisted ideas like God torturing babies forever because they deserve it.  This is an evil idea, but when you can't identify good and evil, it seems like a "good thing" - because its for God's glory, or some such nonsense like that.

When one comes to reason and rationality, according to their own belief, they begin to realize it could just as easily be they themself that are to be tortured forever.  Then perhaps they will start to wake up and see the error.

God is leading us away from these insane beliefs in order to come to an understanding of what goodness really is.

[legoman]

White's argument that the freedom of God demands that some be ultimately condemned to ECT is ludicrous.  If God is "free" then He can choose to save everyone if He desires such. 

His rebuttal to Col.1:20 is weak in that it appeals to humanity being different than the stars or the earth, things not created in the image of God.  How this supports his position I don't understand. We do not disagree that there is an inherent difference between humanity and the rest of creation.  He also implies that there is another meaning for reconciliation, that does not imply bringing back into unity two waring parties. But he doesn't offer this different meaning. And White questions why Paul said "If you continue in the faith" to those who have been reconciled.  But all this does is recognize that even after having been reconciled, people have the free-will to turn from Christ and there to be problems in their relationship with God. 

His rebuttal of Phil.2.10 is also very weak saying that some will confess/bow but such will not indicate a change in heart but only an acknowledgment that Jesus is God. Problem with this is that "confess" is a weak translation of exomologeo which means to "acknowledge openly and joyfully", and bow which is a universal sign of surrender, worship, honor.  Also, this is a quote of Isa.45:23 which in context is speaking of salvation, and the word for confess is shawbah which means to "swear and allegiance to".

He wonders why when people die, their character would be made perfect.  He fails to recognize the purpose of God's judgment where the fire of truth burns the hell out of us, purges us from all evil.  I wonder if he's experienced the judgment of God?  I have and it's terrible, but it changed me forever. 

And just a noter, something that irritates me in his reading of these passages is his trying to make light of them through his tone, instead of taking them seriously.

Concerning Rom.5 White says that Paul is presenting Two humanities, one In Adam and one In Christ.  How in the world he arrives at this from the text is beyond me!  Paul is comparing the universal effect of the sin of Adam with the universal effect of the sacrifice of Christ, except Paul notes that the sacrifice of Christ is even greater for it not only overcomes Adam's sin, but all of our subsequent sins.   

Well, I only listened to this point.  White comes across to me as arrogant and dismissive, not really wrestling with either the text or the arguments in favor of UR.  Of course his understanding of the Judgment is radically different than mine.  I believe Judgment is a means of reconciliation. In order for there to be reconciliation we must understand and acknowledge the truth concerning ourselves and God, and we must repent from it.  When a person encounters the holiness of God it will kill you; you will die to all selfishness.  The fire of truth will burn the hell out of you - Reality Discipline in the Extreme! 

Being White's a Calvinist, it seems to me that He'd recognize that salvation is completely an act of God.  It is something that God does in us.  God raises us from the dead, delivers us from slavery.  But many of White's arguments are stated from a position of us needing to repent, making a choice to follow God.  I wish he'd make up his mind; is it God's sovereignty that he appeals to or human autonomy! 

For me, it was seeing that the UR passages seemed to evidently affirm UR that compelled me to study the passages on Hell to reaffirm my traditional infernalist beliefs.  But when I got into the passages that I thought affirmed ECT, only to find out that that there is little, if any, evidence in scripture for Hell, I was dumbfounded, scared.  As I studied these passages on the judgment of sin though it became clearer and clearer to me that the purpose of judment and punishment is the mitigation of evil and ultimately reconciliation. 

Oh well, I hope this helped a little.

Excellent response.

You say:  He wonders why when people die, their character would be made perfect.

This kind of thinking always bugs me and is hypocritical.  Does he assume Christians have perfect character when they die?  Really?  I don't think so.  So if God can make Christian's character perfect when they die, he can easily do it for anyone.

So either he is arrogant or a hypocrite.

[ded2daworld]

Right Legoman.
God makes it clear that just as he chose the Israelites, there was nothing in their character or intelligence or ANYTHING that caused God to choose them over others.
I believe deep down in their heart, no matter what they outwardly say, most ET christians feel that by being a "chosen" people that there was something in them - something different-even if it was a just little spark that caused God to love them and choose them. In other words, they still feel it was for some reason, however minute, that God chose them rather than God is Love.

It is interesting that man bases so much on physical appearance and yet, speaking of Jesus in Isaiah 52 it states the way he looked(physically) was such that NONE would desire him. Our Lord was not good looking by our own standards. Some may have even been a little repulsed at his face (He wasn't deformed since by Jewish Law that would have been unacceptable for a sacrifice)