Author Topic: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments  (Read 3973 times)

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DeeDee

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WhiteWings showed me this website which he compiled into a pdf. file to make it easier to read. Martin suggested to us that we should make a thread here in the Arguments section. Read through it and lets see what we can make of it.




http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/toc.htm
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 06:49:28 PM by DeeDee »

aspiring son

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Re: Lets Debunk This
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 05:16:06 PM »
I have not read all of it yet, but I will start out noting the contradictions I've noticed in the little that I did read:

His translation of sheol as pit instead of the grave is ridiculous. What is his basis on the mistranslation of the word? And even if it did mean specifically pit instead of grave, where in scripture does it state that it literally means the center of the earth?

He also states that the pit is aplace no one can get out of, but than uses this verse in 1 Samuel to prove that sheol means pit instead of grave:  "The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave AND RAISES UP"

One of his biggest errors is his translations of scripture are based on dealing with a specific geoloical place.

I'll let others chime in who will better rebuke this garbage.

God Bless

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 05:25:43 PM »
Great thread DD :thumbsup:
I know most/all on TentMaker will get high blood pressure after even reading the TOC...
But I think it may be of very great use to those that come out of ET.
It addresses lots of ET claims and seems to back up their claims in a good way with many verses.
So it could become a reference debunking article for all.

Promoting UR can also be done by debunking ET.
Looking forward to some solid on-topic input.

I uploaded the .pdf here: http://qwerty777.fileave.com/Crucifixion%20-%20Heaven%20-%20Hell%20-Judgement.pdf
Nothing added or removed. Just a more friendly/printable layout
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Lets Debunk This
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2008, 05:29:30 PM »
To do a full fledged rebuttle would take some time, but just a short note.

One is that this is centered around the King James Version of the bible and I only need to point this out to say the whole thing then has to be questioned.

Quote
In the King James translation, without exception, everywhere in the Old testament where the word "Hell" appears, it is always the Hebrew "Sheol."


Once someone places the King James version of the bible as the authority of translational purity their whole perspective can be proven to be questionable.

Since 1611 the KJV can be documented to have over 100,000 corrections, including the removal of some whole books.   The word Hell appears less times now, than it did in 1611.  


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2008, 05:39:14 PM »
I have not read all of it yet, but I will start out noting the contradictions I've noticed in the little that I did read:

His translation of sheol as pit instead of the grave is ridiculous. What is his basis on the mistranslation of the word? And even if it did mean specifically pit instead of grave, where in scripture does it state that it literally means the center of the earth?

He also states that the pit is aplace no one can get out of, but than uses this verse in 1 Samuel to prove that sheol means pit instead of grave:  "The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave AND RAISES UP"

I see the following problems.
Just assume there are 3 compartments.(3rd one is for demons) then people are judges before the throne judgement.
Because being in the paradise side is different from the hell side.

Plus it would be unfair that a sinner that died 5000 year ago has to burn 5000 years longer than a similar sinner that dies today.

Ray does mention the wod Gibrah also but as usual he doesn't agree with the hellfire teachers  :laughing7:
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 05:56:22 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Lets Debunk This
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 05:52:14 PM »
Yeah, but you have to feel the love with this one.


Quote
This is all that the lost have to look forward to when they die.  How grateful we are that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son (Christ) that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


When I did believe in some of this stuff, I always remember the strange feeling I would get in my gut when I would hear this type of message.  Ministers talking about the lost and their eternal doom and then in the same breath how grateful they are for Jesus.

Just never felt right.   Now I know why.....    :happy3:


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2008, 06:00:04 PM »
His point seems to be that you can be risen from the grave but not from the pit.
The verses that he uses to proof that they are more logical when you use pit instead of grave don't convince me at all.

Take this one:
Job 7:9 (Sheol). "As a cloud is consumed and vanisheth away; so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more."

But Job started with say mans time on earth will run out. Then its logical that once he goes into the ground he never returns.
Job 7:1  Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?
Even if the pit in the center of the earth exists none of his 'proof verses' prove that.
They just say "at death something inreversible happens"


To me that says Job is
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2008, 06:20:56 PM »
where in scripture does it state that it literally means the center of the earth?

From the site:
Quote
We are not going to exhaust all the Scriptures concerning the location of Sheol and Hades, but only give a couple to substantiate clearly where it is located.
WhiteWings: Meaning this are the best/only verses he has to support his claims

1. Matthew 12:40. "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Acts 2:27 says that Christ went to Hades and here we are told He went to the heart of the earth, so Hades is located in the heart (middle or center) of the earth.
2. Isaiah 14:9. Here Isaiah is speaking concerning the fall of Babylon. "Hell (Sheol) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming..." The word "beneath" here is the Hebrew word "tachath." It comes from a Hebrew root word meaning to depress, the bottom, below and underneath. In other words, Sheol is located depressed, below, underneath and in the bottom of the earth.
3.
(The two compartments within Sheol and Hades). Within Hades, we learn from Luke 16, there are two compartments separated by a tremendous gulf. Prior to Christ's ascension back to heaven in Acts 1:11, both saved and lost went to one of the two compartments in Hades. The gulf separated the two places which are called a place of torment (lost) and "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise for, the saved. We must emphasize that Sheol and Hades are all-inclusive of both places. Only the context of the Scripture will determine whether a person went to Torment or Paradise within Hades.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2008, 07:07:59 PM »
Another one from me. Then people can debunk my debunking  :laughing7:


Quote
Now in Acts 2:27 we have seen that Christ went to Hades:

Quote
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell (Hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
Doesn't corruption mean to rot (away)
Nothing rots in hell. It's fireproof. If we would rot away in hell our nerves would be gone and we can feel the love of God anymore....

Quote
Even though it is clearly stated that He went to Hades, we still are not told whether He went to Paradise or Torment. The answer is given, though, when we examine what Christ told the thief on the cross. This man believed that Christ was the Messiah and Saviour. Here are the words in Luke 23:42, "And he (the thief) said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

Here is the Lord's reply, which separates all skepticism from truth.
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in PARADISE" (Verse 43).

Devide the word I think that's called.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in PARADISE
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in PARADISE
Shift the comma 1 word to the right and the whole meaning gets different.

Question? Does heaven means the same as Paradise?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

LaurieJo

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 07:44:22 PM »
I know it's not funny because there are people who do believe it.....
but....Diagram 1, with the line denoting "ground surface", the "gulf", and the "A & B torment chambers" gave me the giggles....really bad.

I don't think I can join in this thread....reading that kind of stuff makes me ill.

aspiring son

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 09:03:32 PM »
where in scripture does it state that it literally means the center of the earth?

From the site:
Quote
We are not going to exhaust all the Scriptures concerning the location of Sheol and Hades, but only give a couple to substantiate clearly where it is located.
WhiteWings: Meaning this are the best/only verses he has to support his claims

1. Matthew 12:40. "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Acts 2:27 says that Christ went to Hades and here we are told He went to the heart of the earth, so Hades is located in the heart (middle or center) of the earth.
2. Isaiah 14:9. Here Isaiah is speaking concerning the fall of Babylon. "Hell (Sheol) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming..." The word "beneath" here is the Hebrew word "tachath." It comes from a Hebrew root word meaning to depress, the bottom, below and underneath. In other words, Sheol is located depressed, below, underneath and in the bottom of the earth.
3.
(The two compartments within Sheol and Hades). Within Hades, we learn from Luke 16, there are two compartments separated by a tremendous gulf. Prior to Christ's ascension back to heaven in Acts 1:11, both saved and lost went to one of the two compartments in Hades. The gulf separated the two places which are called a place of torment (lost) and "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise for, the saved. We must emphasize that Sheol and Hades are all-inclusive of both places. Only the context of the Scripture will determine whether a person went to Torment or Paradise within Hades.

Well, we better start digging!!! I want to see what hell looks like! I wander if Satan really has a pitchfork.........................

On a serious note though, I just looked grave up on e- sword and found two translations for the word grave

1.qeburah- meaning literally a pit, well, cistern, or sepulchre. That's the what he stated should be what all the definitions for the word sheol should be in the OT. Found in Gen 35-20 refering to Rachel's literal burial place

2. sheol- the state of the dead

Now they took the time to translate Gen 35-20 correctly, so why would they get confused in all the rest of the translations of the word grave?

Just a thought....

Offline studier

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 09:26:02 PM »
WhiteWings showed me this website which he compiled into a pdf. file to make it easier to read. Martin suggested to us that we should make a thread here in the Arguments section. Read through it and lets see what we can make of it.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/toc.htm

First see if you can prove it even exists....

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 09:34:45 PM »
1.qeburah- meaning literally a pit, well, cistern, or sepulchre. That's the what he stated should be what all the definitions for the word sheol should be in the OT. Found in Gen 35-20 refering to Rachel's literal burial place

So qeburah has 3 meanings.
He used pit to build his doctrine on.

Cistern
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern

Pronunciation: \ˈsis-tərn\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin cisterna, from cista box, chest — more at chest
Date: 13th century
1 : an artificial reservoir (as an underground tank) for storing liquids and especially water (as rainwater)
2 : a large usually silver vessel formerly used (as in cooling wine) at the dining table
3 : a fluid-containing sac or cavity in an organism

Scelpture
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepulchre
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07425a.htm

Main Entry: 1sep·ul·chre 
Variant(s): or sep·ul·cher  \ˈse-pəl-kər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sepulcre, from Anglo-French, from Latin sepulcrum, sepulchrum, from sepelire to bury; akin to Greek hepein to care for, Sanskrit saparyati he honors
Date: 13th century
1 : a place of burial : tomb
2 : a receptacle for religious relics especially in an altar

Ofcourse there is also a normal grave and catacombes.

A grave is a hole in the ground. A pit.
All the others 'build' and more solid.
Like catacombs with hundered of coffins in it.
Or the hew out Sepulchre where Jesus is placed in.

So if there is a difference between the meaning of "qeburah" and "Sheol" it's the 'contruction' and not the functionality.

Right? :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 09:38:49 PM »
WhiteWings showed me this website which he compiled into a pdf. file to make it easier to read. Martin suggested to us that we should make a thread here in the Arguments section. Read through it and lets see what we can make of it.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/toc.htm

First see if you can prove it even exists....

Trick question Craig?  :winkgrin:

The only way we can prove something is with verses I guess. At least I expect you don't have photo album with pics of heaven (and hell)
The writer of the article has presented his proof/verses.
Now it's up to us to debunk it.
Likely you have it all figured out. But that doesn't mean everyone has figured it out....

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline studier

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2008, 12:35:37 AM »
WhiteWings showed me this website which he compiled into a pdf. file to make it easier to read. Martin suggested to us that we should make a thread here in the Arguments section. Read through it and lets see what we can make of it.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Hell/toc.htm

First see if you can prove it even exists....

Trick question Craig?  :winkgrin:

The only way we can prove something is with verses I guess. At least I expect you don't have photo album with pics of heaven (and hell)
The writer of the article has presented his proof/verses.
Now it's up to us to debunk it.
Likely you have it all figured out. But that doesn't mean everyone has figured it out....

 :2c:

Can't debunk what someone cannot prove. The only way it is even relevant is if one takes the presumption that it is true based on their desire for it to be true. That is all I am saying. I mean even as a pastor in ET, I found no relevance to the 3 hell compartments.

DeeDee

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2008, 12:33:30 PM »
All that gets me bigtime about this pdf./website is that the writer claims that Gibrah is the only word that means grave and the rest of the words like Sheol means hell. The rest of his claims don't really get to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2008, 01:13:17 PM »
It gets a little further than that because other things are based on some of teh assumption made at the start of the article.
The other verse could be said prove the earlier assumption or are they just part of circular reasoning.....?

There is more in the document but that's not stricly about hell.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2008, 01:30:52 AM »
All that gets me bigtime about this pdf./website is that the writer claims that Gibrah is the only word that means grave and the rest of the words like Sheol means hell. The rest of his claims don't really get to me.

No comments on Gibrah ?  :sigh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline studier

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2008, 02:03:20 AM »
I did some research on Gibrah, it is not 'grave', per say, it is a a chambered grave. A place reserved for the saints and prophets and royalty of Israel unlike the non-saints, non-prophets, and non-royalty, who were buried in the ground.

Nothing like twisting the facts. The word Gibrah is not the common word for grave.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2008, 11:09:51 AM »
I did some research on Gibrah, it is not 'grave', per say, it is a a chambered grave. A place reserved for the saints and prophets and royalty of Israel unlike the non-saints, non-prophets, and non-royalty, who were buried in the ground.
Clear Craig. It's basicly what I found after some Googleing.
For simplicity I'll just call all you mentioned grave.


Quote
Nothing like twisting the facts. The word Gibrah is not the common word for grave.
The point of the authors is that he agrees 'hell' is almost always translated wrong. It should have the menaing that is explained many times on TentMaker.
But one verse uses the word Gibrah. And that verse very clearly points toward hell. According to the author.
Gibrah has 3 meanings. Two of them are what you decribed Craig. The third one is 'pit' and that, according to the author, is a strong proof of hell. He backs that up with some verses.

Personally I'm not so convinced. None of his verses prove anything. Yes, they can be read as hell. But also as grave. And many oother things if you do enough twisting.
The 3rd meaning of the word 'pit' well it can just be me but isn't a grave just a pit? If you dig a hole in the ground you call it hole or pit. But when you put a body in it suddenly is called grave. I think the key here is to understand how the ancient Jews looked at that word. We must take care to look with western moderns eyes to eastern acient words.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

DeeDee

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2008, 05:35:34 PM »
Thanks Guys, you always know how to make me feel ALOT better.


 :HeartThrob:   :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:   :HeartThrob:


Blessings!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DeeDee

Offline studier

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2008, 08:44:57 PM »
Quote
The 3rd meaning of the word 'pit' well it can just be me but isn't a grave just a pit? If you dig a hole in the ground you call it hole or pit. But when you put a body in it suddenly is called grave.

That is exactly it. What makes Gibrah special it seems, is the fact it is a prepared and manufactured pit or chamber for the purpose of the living remembering the buried dead.

Legacy, according to the Jews (and Scripture), is one of the rewards given to those who trust in the Lord.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 08:53:46 PM by SOtW »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2008, 11:48:09 PM »
From the article
Quote
Here are a few of the places where the Hebrew word "Sheol" is mistranslated as grave in the Old testament.  Beside the passages in parenthesis is the way it appears in the Revised Standard.  The Revised Standard has transliterated, i.e., put the Hebrew word "Sheol" itself in the English translation.  There is one exception where Sheol is translated as "Pit" by the Revised Standard and that is Job 33:22.  This would be correct, since Sheol is a pit located in the center of the earth. 
Clear all sheol translations should be hell instead of grave...


The red word in the verse below is translated from sheol.
The verse is about king David.
Psalm 16:10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Two problems here. For the ETs that is....  :flamebreath:
a] Is king David in hell?
b] "not leave" means people get out of hell that is supposed to be the eternal destination of all who enter it.

For me the verse simply states "I won't be dead forever"
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 11:49:43 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2008, 01:03:44 AM »
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
ETs use death as "burn in hell forever"

Jesus came to pay for our sin.

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Quote
These final three words uttered by Jesus are a translation of the single Greek word "Tetelastai". The reason Jesus spoke this word is because it was the word placed on the Roman stamp of payment. It was used in Roman society to indicate that a debt had been paid in full, a financial debt or even when a criminal debt was served in jail. Jesus' last words were literally
"PAID IN FULL!!"

If the wages for death is "burn in hell forever" then it's wasn't finished at all. Jesus would still be 'paying' right now in hell.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

DeeDee

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Re: Lets Debunk This - Death and conscious judgement in 3 hell compartments
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2008, 08:58:03 AM »
Quote
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
ETs use death as "burn in hell forever"

Jesus came to pay for our sin.

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Quote
These final three words uttered by Jesus are a translation of the single Greek word "Tetelastai". The reason Jesus spoke this word is because it was the word placed on the Roman stamp of payment. It was used in Roman society to indicate that a debt had been paid in full, a financial debt or even when a criminal debt was served in jail. Jesus' last words were literally
"PAID IN FULL!!"


If the wages for death is "burn in hell forever" then it's wasn't finished at all. Jesus would still be 'paying' right now in hell.


Very clever way of looking at it Tony!  :clapping: