Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation

Jude ch 1

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gatheredfragments:
I would have to copy and paste all of Jude 1 to support UR...and show the prepared understanding of the argument against it. 

I can say particular to these verses:


Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

(yes this is King James version)

1.  what is destroyed is what is 'unbelieving'...ideas of non belief ...the ego of pride
2.  what is under chains 'unto' the judgment day...is present tense
3.  are set forth for an example,'suffering' the vengeance of eternal fire...is also present tense


this was shown to me a couple days ago while listening to the Word. 
hope its helpful.


Redlettervoice:


So you see it really as "salvation" ........?

Am I "hearing" you right?

gatheredfragments:

if destroying my soulish nature and bringing it to submission to the spirit that is God in me is salvation, then yes.  i experience for myself being saved again and again from the ways of man, the world, and myself, and every time its Jesus Christ i have to thank.

the entire design as i see it is to take us out of ourselves and into Him.

i don't follow the terminology of theology.  for that i apologize and wish i were more educated in that field of study, then i could clarify precisely for you through terms you are familiar with, instead i can only express as i am. 

when i read this...Jude is saying that there are those that will preach eternal damnation,  (damnation as i understand it is perpetual in that it cycles out the dross, or death, or refuse of the human being)...but they don't undertsand that what they call damnation is necessary for our growth..they do this to take away the truth of God's love which is eternal and misplace it with a fear based limitation to enforce codes and traditions hoping to create a patent means of attaining God being pleased with us and creating a safety zone of there being a 'line' that determines where you have reached a specific place and can rest.  But thats not so, there is no rest, Jesus said so himself, the son of man has no place to lay his head. (no place to stop and wait) we never stop growing.  So eternal damnation serves to create an END, to which there is none.  (all that is truly eternally damned is that behavior of mine that i have put behind me forever)  But eternal damnation of the being,cannot be, as the application of reconciliation/restoration/baptism/salvation/resurrection is individuated to the person and the circumstance.  God's creation demands life and all the variants of life in it, i cannot be saved in the same manner as you, but under the same love as you, yes i have been. 




while the Father purges me of my self, am i not being destroyed, saved, restored, and washed at the same time?  the goal is God growing me towards him. 

I fear its likely that i've entered into a discussion that i don't really belong in because of not having the background as many here have. 

i'll leave it up to the mod's to remove this or take whatever step is necessary legally regarding what is allowable in this environment. 

i have to add...after i posted this i went about my business and realized i had written jude ch 1...(i had been reading through several different books at the time and ch1 obviously came from another study experience)...to which there is only one chapter of Jude!   once again my enthusiasm trips me up. 

Kratos:
Enthusiasm and zeal are good things when they are for the ways of God. I understand perfectly what you are saying and agree. All of Israel (everyone when they come to the Lord) come out of Egypt and into the wilderness where what is offensive to God and His Kingdom perishes until we all cross the Jordan and receive our new land (resurrected bodies) each in their own order.

John

Taffy:

--- Quote ---All of Israel (everyone when they come to the Lord) come out of Egypt and into the wilderness where what is offensive to God and His Kingdom perishes until we all cross the Jordan and receive our new land (resurrected bodies) each in their own order.

--- End quote ---

Much more could be said to this..But Amen Kratos..thats the crux.
Blessings
Taffy

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