Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation

James White's objections need to be addressed

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dajomaco:
All
How much we want to give you.
All
What have you required.
All
Mostly more than most.
All
the sons and daughters of man.
All
the sons and daughters of God
All
of creation.
All
of the cry's of Israel.
All
of humanities hurting.
All
My God My God My God   
All
Lifted up.
All
drawn near.
All
reconciled
All
thoughts captive
All
flesh dead
All
receive inner peace
All
that is holy
All
That is pure
All
to the end before the start
All
the wisdom of the universe
All
the host shall see
All
Jesus did for me.
All
others
All
disappear
All
of God draws near.
All
of love appears.
All
the vanquished fears.
All
I say, I say to
All.

eaglesway:
yes, indeed- All in ALL

legoman:

--- Quote from: myrddin on November 14, 2011, 08:52:06 PM ---Argh!  :sigh:  Unfortunately I wrote them down on my computer at home, and didn't put it in a google doc.  I'll post them tonight.  I believe Dr. White's main concern was that God must be free to display all of His attributes, for His own self-glorification.  (I agree with this.)  The only way to do that is to save some sinners by grace (which by definition must not be demanded of Him), and to justly condemn the rest of the sinners and leave them there forever.  (I don't agree with this, because it disagrees with Scripture and has a warped view of justice.)

--- End quote ---

Most of the problem with mainstream "churchianity", and mankind in general, is when you get right down to it, they can't identify good & evil, and thus are evil in some sense themselves.  It affects us all. This is why there is so much war, greed, hate, corruption at all levels of our society.

Anyway, they have no problem saying it is just that someone be tortured forever (as long as it is not themselves) - and so you notice most will say they are saved but others deserve to be tortured forever.  They have justified it in their own mind and assume God must be like this.

This leads to twisted ideas like God torturing babies forever because they deserve it.  This is an evil idea, but when you can't identify good and evil, it seems like a "good thing" - because its for God's glory, or some such nonsense like that.

When one comes to reason and rationality, according to their own belief, they begin to realize it could just as easily be they themself that are to be tortured forever.  Then perhaps they will start to wake up and see the error.

God is leading us away from these insane beliefs in order to come to an understanding of what goodness really is.

legoman:

--- Quote from: Sherman on November 23, 2011, 10:39:22 PM ---White's argument that the freedom of God demands that some be ultimately condemned to ECT is ludicrous.  If God is "free" then He can choose to save everyone if He desires such. 

His rebuttal to Col.1:20 is weak in that it appeals to humanity being different than the stars or the earth, things not created in the image of God.  How this supports his position I don't understand. We do not disagree that there is an inherent difference between humanity and the rest of creation.  He also implies that there is another meaning for reconciliation, that does not imply bringing back into unity two waring parties. But he doesn't offer this different meaning. And White questions why Paul said "If you continue in the faith" to those who have been reconciled.  But all this does is recognize that even after having been reconciled, people have the free-will to turn from Christ and there to be problems in their relationship with God. 

His rebuttal of Phil.2.10 is also very weak saying that some will confess/bow but such will not indicate a change in heart but only an acknowledgment that Jesus is God. Problem with this is that "confess" is a weak translation of exomologeo which means to "acknowledge openly and joyfully", and bow which is a universal sign of surrender, worship, honor.  Also, this is a quote of Isa.45:23 which in context is speaking of salvation, and the word for confess is shawbah which means to "swear and allegiance to".

He wonders why when people die, their character would be made perfect.  He fails to recognize the purpose of God's judgment where the fire of truth burns the hell out of us, purges us from all evil.  I wonder if he's experienced the judgment of God?  I have and it's terrible, but it changed me forever. 

And just a noter, something that irritates me in his reading of these passages is his trying to make light of them through his tone, instead of taking them seriously.

Concerning Rom.5 White says that Paul is presenting Two humanities, one In Adam and one In Christ.  How in the world he arrives at this from the text is beyond me!  Paul is comparing the universal effect of the sin of Adam with the universal effect of the sacrifice of Christ, except Paul notes that the sacrifice of Christ is even greater for it not only overcomes Adam's sin, but all of our subsequent sins.   

Well, I only listened to this point.  White comes across to me as arrogant and dismissive, not really wrestling with either the text or the arguments in favor of UR.  Of course his understanding of the Judgment is radically different than mine.  I believe Judgment is a means of reconciliation. In order for there to be reconciliation we must understand and acknowledge the truth concerning ourselves and God, and we must repent from it.  When a person encounters the holiness of God it will kill you; you will die to all selfishness.  The fire of truth will burn the hell out of you - Reality Discipline in the Extreme! 

Being White's a Calvinist, it seems to me that He'd recognize that salvation is completely an act of God.  It is something that God does in us.  God raises us from the dead, delivers us from slavery.  But many of White's arguments are stated from a position of us needing to repent, making a choice to follow God.  I wish he'd make up his mind; is it God's sovereignty that he appeals to or human autonomy! 

For me, it was seeing that the UR passages seemed to evidently affirm UR that compelled me to study the passages on Hell to reaffirm my traditional infernalist beliefs.  But when I got into the passages that I thought affirmed ECT, only to find out that that there is little, if any, evidence in scripture for Hell, I was dumbfounded, scared.  As I studied these passages on the judgment of sin though it became clearer and clearer to me that the purpose of judment and punishment is the mitigation of evil and ultimately reconciliation. 

Oh well, I hope this helped a little.

--- End quote ---

Excellent response.

You say:  He wonders why when people die, their character would be made perfect.

This kind of thinking always bugs me and is hypocritical.  Does he assume Christians have perfect character when they die?  Really?  I don't think so.  So if God can make Christian's character perfect when they die, he can easily do it for anyone.

So either he is arrogant or a hypocrite.

ded2daworld:
Right Legoman.
God makes it clear that just as he chose the Israelites, there was nothing in their character or intelligence or ANYTHING that caused God to choose them over others.
I believe deep down in their heart, no matter what they outwardly say, most ET christians feel that by being a "chosen" people that there was something in them - something different-even if it was a just little spark that caused God to love them and choose them. In other words, they still feel it was for some reason, however minute, that God chose them rather than God is Love.

It is interesting that man bases so much on physical appearance and yet, speaking of Jesus in Isaiah 52 it states the way he looked(physically) was such that NONE would desire him. Our Lord was not good looking by our own standards. Some may have even been a little repulsed at his face (He wasn't deformed since by Jewish Law that would have been unacceptable for a sacrifice)

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