Author Topic: Is Saving a Co-operative process?  (Read 4480 times)

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Offline Nathan

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2009, 08:44:48 PM »
There is a worship song that's been a favorite of the church for some time now that just sort of jumped out at me the other day . . .

Ya'll heard of the song called "Come"?

it goes like . . .

Come, now is the time to worship . . .Come, now is the time to give your heart . .
Come, just as you are and worship . . Come, just as you are before your God . . .

It's the chorus that got me . . .I never saw this in all the years I've sung it . . .

One day every tongue will confess you are God . . .
One day every knee will bow . . .
but STILL THE GREATEST TREASURE, REMAINS FOR THOSE
WHO GLADLY CHOOSE YOU NOW . . ..

Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2009, 09:04:17 PM »
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.


True, but I wonder how that some goes through some minds.  I have not met one christian yet who won't say  "yeah all will bow and confess"    but then the punch line... "but their realization comes too late"



Offline Nathan

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2009, 09:53:08 PM »
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.


True, but I wonder how that some goes through some minds.  I have not met one christian yet who won't say  "yeah all will bow and confess"    but then the punch line... "but their realization comes too late"




My sister says that they will, but it will be because they are forced to realize that . . .against their will . . .

Offline legoman

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2009, 10:03:11 PM »
Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.


True, but I wonder how that some goes through some minds.  I have not met one christian yet who won't say  "yeah all will bow and confess"    but then the punch line... "but their realization comes too late"




My sister says that they will, but it will be because they are forced to realize that . . .against their will . . .

But I thought God never "forces" anyone against their will!?!?  :winkgrin:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2009, 10:19:06 PM »
Oh, but he does . ..sends them to hell forever . .against their will . . .forces them to admit that Jesus is the winner and all that .  .

what . . .you actually thought God was really Love????

Offline Doc

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2009, 09:24:11 AM »
There is a worship song that's been a favorite of the church for some time now that just sort of jumped out at me the other day . . .

Ya'll heard of the song called "Come"?

it goes like . . .

Come, now is the time to worship . . .Come, now is the time to give your heart . .
Come, just as you are and worship . . Come, just as you are before your God . . .

It's the chorus that got me . . .I never saw this in all the years I've sung it . . .

One day every tongue will confess you are God . . .
One day every knee will bow . . .
but STILL THE GREATEST TREASURE, REMAINS FOR THOSE
WHO GLADLY CHOOSE YOU NOW . . ..

Churches have been singing a song of universal reconciliation for years without even realizing it.

That's awesome, Nate! I was just thinking the very same thing when we were doing that song in church a few weeks back!

That's what is so hilariously frustrating about seeing the truth of UR. ET churches preach and sing about it all the time without even realizing it! It's right under their noses and they don't see it!

One Sunday a few weeks back, our pastor gave a really great sermon. I very nearly walked up to him afterward and said; "great sermon, pastor, we'll make a universalist of you yet... :laughing7:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

martincisneros

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2009, 08:18:07 AM »
The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a cooperative process.  That's why Jesus was appointed as High Priest over God's Word to bring it to pass in our lives when we stand upon it unwaveringly in faith and love.  Salvation is more than the remittance of sin and reconciliation with God.  It includes healing, prosperity, and anything else that we'd need in order to accomplish all of the plans of God for our lives and in the behalf of all of humanity.  We're not only free to claim our own salvation, but also that of the entire world.  It's wonderful to stand in agreement with Lord Jesus for the salvation of the whole world and to watch Him bring to pass that aspect of God's Word that we're standing unwaveringly on in faith and love.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2009, 08:35:47 PM »
The Scriptures are clear that salvation is a cooperative process.  That's why Jesus was appointed as High Priest over God's Word to bring it to pass in our lives when we stand upon it unwaveringly in faith and love.  Salvation is more than the remittance of sin and reconciliation with God.  It includes healing, prosperity, and anything else that we'd need in order to accomplish all of the plans of God for our lives and in the behalf of all of humanity.  We're not only free to claim our own salvation, but also that of the entire world.  It's wonderful to stand in agreement with Lord Jesus for the salvation of the whole world and to watch Him bring to pass that aspect of God's Word that we're standing unwaveringly on in faith and love.

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

IceDash

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2009, 04:12:31 AM »
Hi Paul,

In some ways I can agree with that argument, although I believe it misrepresents the truth.

Just because God will save all doesn't mean we can run around doing whatever we want sinning all over the place and then "get into" heaven.  (I don't think that's what you were implying either).

This is kind of like the OSAS doctrine - once saved always saved, therefore LETS PARTY!  I can sin whenever I want and still get into heaven blah blah blah...

As you said, we need to the run the race, let God transform us, and with God's help, we will enter the Kingdom - when God wants us to.

Legoman


This is the reason why paul was angry at the church when they was lazy and doing evil thing because they knew they will be saved and Paul called them a idiot (sorry, my word but I bet paul was thinking that :laughing7:) anyway, no, I knew I will be saved but that doesn't mean I can do whatever I want to sin all the time! No, I want follow the example of christ because why? I believe in good and love, not evil god show me what is evil and wrong is, I never like them at all!

Because of what you wish for, you will be test by the fire of God, the more sins is there, the more painful is going to be to be taking the sins out, the less is it, the less painful is it.

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2009, 10:03:26 AM »
Is saving a co-operative process, between the one who is saving (the saviour) and the one who is being saved (the savee)?  I would have to say no... its ultimately the responsibility of the saviour whether or not and whom he saves.

Example:  I slip on the rocks, knock myself unconcious, and fall into the river.

I cannot save myself, infact I may not even be aware that I need to be saved (if I remain unconcious).  Yet I clearly do need to be saved and will die if I am not saved.

Someone comes along, jumps into the river, and pulls me out.  Did they need any help from me to save me?  Did they need to ask my permission or ask if I wanted to be saved?  Not likely, as I am probably still unconcious - effectively not even realizing I need to be saved.

Am I responsible at all for my own salvation if I slip and fall unconcious into the river?

Just trying to understand the correct usage of the English words "save" and "saviour".

Thoughts?
Legoman


I kindof look at it as were responsible to make a "choice" in a sense, but its a choice we were designed to make EASILY (with no sin or anything hindering us ideally). that choice is not limited to THIS life though, and people will make that "choice" when they see God in all his glory at the end of the ages I think...i think this is what "every knee shall bow, every tounge shall confess" is refering to...that moment when all who havent accepted...will.

its what we were designed for...we were ALL designed to be with and love him...he doesnt "force" it but he designed us for that ultimate meaning, that ultimate reconcilliation.

so thats my :2c:

martincisneros

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Re: Is Saving a Co-operative process?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2009, 10:25:13 PM »
So . . .could we then say that repentance does not bring salvation . .that already exists whether repentance is there or not . . .but that repentance "activates" that salvation in us?

How does that fit for ya?
Repentance does activate salvation for us very often.  You don't want that particular weed growing in your heart, so you stop watering it and start yanking on it to throw it out.  Some things you might want to dig out have enormously deep roots/tentacles and you're yanking on that puppy for the longest time and squirming the whole time 'cause ya wanna get this crop of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit growing.  But this other crap has to be thrown out, or it'll try to either choke out the good stuff or try to hybridize it.  Repentance is the light switch. 

A lot of people try to say that it's God that has to do it for us.  No, He complained too many times in the prophets that people were sitting on their hands and waiting on Him and not doing what they needed to do.  "Is it not time to build My house?  Is it time to build your houses??" -- the obvious implication being "Who is really first priority and final authority here??" God may yell at you or try to romance you into throwing that switch, but you're still the one that ultimately turns the switch on/off.  If My people who are called by My Name shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face, then will I hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.(2Chronicles 7:14) 

Many times when nothing else is working in my life, I start scrutinizing my mind, heart, and flesh over the repentance issue and the standards of God's promises and provisions and I start asking myself the serious questions related to whether or not I've wandered into trying to be my own provider again or whether He's still my God.  And it'll usually, after all of these years, wind up being the teeniest adjustment in my thinking or what I've slipped into saying with everybody else, and then boom!  The power starts flowing again after the transformer has been repaired. 

More than once, I've had my body SUDDENLY line up QUICKLY after a very thorough repenting of having touched God's anointed in having had a slip of the tongue about another man of God that I didn't agree with.  When I'm being 100% honest and seeking God and nothing else is occuring to me, then I ask the Holy Spirit to show me where I've missed it 'cause I'm obviously still clueless after having gone into every closet in my heart, mind, and body about the issue.  And every once in a while someone's face will come before me that I had a slip of the tongue or of the keyboard about and the following dialogue will inevitably go along with it:

God: Is that man your servant?
Martin: No
God: Am I able to make him stand or fall?
Martin: Yes
God: He's standing, so guess what?!
Martin: I'm repenting of having touched Your anointed.
God: :Sparkletooth:

and then here comes the healing of my body, the badly needed check in the mail or cash being passed to me in public "out of the blue," my reconciliation with all of Creation and animals are speaking with me again with clarity, or whatever else I was dealing with will straighten out.  And obviously, if that wasn't the only issue that was unresolved in my life, then I'm still digging until things are straightened out between me and God.  And for me, most often, it'll wind up being that I was sinning by carrying cares for my life, having thought for the morrow, or in some other way not having every thought captive to the obedience of Christ's High Priestly ministry.

Repentance gets rid of the bottle neck on God's provisions and of things working in your life as they should.  It's not the magic bullet that'll take care of everything.  Some ministers have tried to imply that you'll grow in greater and greater rewards by simply staying totally repented.  But no, you've got to stand on God's Word and do those things that the Holy Spirit ministers to you to do during your time in the Word.  It's the life of obedience that grows in greater and greater grace.  It's not the life of repentance.  If it's a life of repentance, then someone hasn't truly repented.  But you do have to change filters, spark plugs, and clean out things every once in a while -- with every hundred thousand miles or whatever.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 10:37:18 PM by martincisneros »