Author Topic: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain  (Read 5614 times)

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Offline Tony N

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If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« on: February 21, 2009, 07:41:20 PM »
I have heard the protest:

If all are going to be saved then Christ died in vain.

That's like saying:

If my house is going to be paid off in ten years then there is no reason to pay my mortgage payments.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Jerm

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2009, 07:57:29 PM »
This argument irritates me more than any of the other ones.  The people who throw this out there don't understand all are going to be saved BECAUSE of Christ, not despite Him.  If anything, ET teaches that Christ died in vain.  According to that ideaology, even though Jesus died for all, only about 5% are saved by His act.  They have made Him out to be an utter failure! 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 08:04:50 PM »
They are saying: "It's not fair that others who didn't believe get the same reward as I do."
So for them believing=work
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2009, 08:33:18 PM »
They are saying: "It's not fair that others who didn't believe get the same reward as I do."
So for them believing=work

So, by saying "if all are going to be saved Christ died in vain" that they are saying that Christ died so that I could save myself? So if all are saved, what I did to save myself was in vain?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2009, 09:06:55 PM »
Hard explain what I mean because their reasoning has so many flaws. Both logical an theological.

They recognize it was Jesus that gave the chance(=ET)/gift(=UR) of salvation.
If few benefitted from His death => not in vain.
If all benefit from His death => in vain
The logical flaw is that when you call saving 5% (the elect) a victory then 100% is an even greater victory and not a failure.

The theological flaw is this:
The 5% believers part of the 100% "all group".
If Jesus had decided not to die for the 95% unbelievers then he wouldn't have died for the 5% either.
So in some way they acknowledge the need of a Saviour but OTOH they think their belief is enough.


Mmmm, well the above isn't exactly what I mean... I hope you understand anyway.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2009, 10:41:42 PM »
this is the most stupid argument I've ever heard

according to my understanding of the Bible, the wages of sin is (literal) death (Romans 6:23), death is not eternal torment; And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets... (Eccl. 7:26)

all are guilty of that death sentence

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Jesus by his death and ressurection defeated death and brought salvation to ALL men

Romans 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

how can they say this was in vain???


Jerm

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 12:24:34 AM »
how can they say this was in vain???

I think alot of it comes from misunderstanding exactly what UR teaches.  They think that we're teaching that life is one big gravy train, where you can do anything you want and still go to heaven because God is too nice to send anyone to Hell.  And once you understand the huge difference between what I just described and Biblical UR, this argument becomes plain lunacy.

Offline sparrow

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 12:51:26 AM »
I tend to think that those who think that if all are saved then Christ died in vain, tend to be the same people who have this kind of mindset, right now in their walk:

"well if some people get to just do whatever they want and they are NOT going to hell because of it, and I'm over here going to church, then I'm going to church and I'm wasting my time being "good" for NOTHING!"  :thewife:


They get really angry when talking about God saving all.  :thewife:  But... they are truly having a wrong perspective. They aren't going to see the beauty of UR until they shed what NEEDS to be shed from their views. Until they get the RIGHT perspective, until their pespective SHIFTS... they are not going to see it or understand it. And they SHOULDN'T see it...UNTIL that shift in perspective takes place.

me thinks.

edited to add: There are all sorts of reasons why a person would think God saving all means Christ died in vain. But the example I gave above, is something I have seen with my own eyes. They see spirituality as a "chore". That's a wrong perspective... it doesn' mean they're bad people, just not seeing something properly, that's all.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 12:58:06 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 02:34:20 AM »
I have heard the protest:

If all are going to be saved then Christ died in vain.

That's like saying:

If my house is going to be paid off in ten years then there is no reason to pay my mortgage payments.


I see it as Jesus died in vain if there is anyone who remains apart from God forever.

Jesus as the Savior of the   "WHOLE" world kinda falls short at that point.


Jesus saving all means a complete success of the purpose.


Offline Taffy

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 02:39:19 AM »
I have heard the protest:

If all are going to be saved then Christ died in vain.

That's like saying:

If my house is going to be paid off in ten years then there is no reason to pay my mortgage payments.


I see it as Jesus died in vain if there is anyone who remains apart from God forever.

Jesus as the Savior of the   "WHOLE" world kinda falls short at that point.


Jesus saving all means a complete success of the purpose.



I kinda of think so too... :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline sparrow

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 02:42:10 AM »
I have heard the protest:

If all are going to be saved then Christ died in vain.

That's like saying:

If my house is going to be paid off in ten years then there is no reason to pay my mortgage payments.


I see it as Jesus died in vain if there is anyone who remains apart from God forever.

Jesus as the Savior of the   "WHOLE" world kinda falls short at that point.


Jesus saving all means a complete success of the purpose.



I kinda of think so too... :icon_flower:

Me three. :icon_flower:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Tony N

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 01:20:52 PM »
Maybe the ones that complain that they did all this and all that their whole life so why should God let into heaven all those who didn't sacrifice anything at all to get there is like the workers

Mat 20:1-16  For like is the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a householder, who came out at the same time with the morning to hire workers for his vineyard."  (2)  Now, agreeing with the workers for a denarius a day, he dispatches them into his vineyard."  (3)  And, coming out about the third hour, he perceived others standing in the market, idle."  (4)  And to those he said, 'You also go into my vineyard, and whatsoever may be just I shall be giving you.' Now they came away."  (5)  Now, again coming out about the sixth and ninth hour, he does similarly."  (6)  Now, about the eleventh, coming out, he found others standing. And he is saying to them, 'Why stand you here the whole day idle?'"  (7)  They are saying to him that 'No one hires us.' He is saying to them, 'You also go into the vineyard.'"  (8)  Now, evening coming on, the lord of the vineyard is saying to his manager, 'Call the workers and pay them the wages, beginning from the last, to the first.'"  (9)  And, coming, those hired about the eleventh hour got a denarius apiece. "  (10)  And, coming, the first infer that they will be getting more. And they also got a denarius apiece."  (11)  Now, getting it, they murmured against the householder,  (12)  saying, 'These last do one hour, and you make them equal to us who bear the burden of the day and the scorching heat.'"  (13)  Yet he, answering one of them, said, 'Comrade, I am not injuring you! Did you not agree with me for a denarius?  (14)  Pick up what is yours and go away. Now I want to give to this last one even as to you.  (15)  Is it not allowed me to do what I want with that which is mine? Or is your eye wicked, seeing that I am good?'"  (16)  Thus shall the last be first, and the first last."

Of course the above scenario still is not quite equal to what we are talking about because the rest of mankind don't work at all and in fact neither do we of the nations. If we worked for the kingdom to get wages then grace is no longer grace.

But you get the point?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

bobf

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 05:22:22 PM »
I have heard the protest:

If all are going to be saved then Christ died in vain.

That's like saying:

If my house is going to be paid off in ten years then there is no reason to pay my mortgage payments.

1 saved = Christ death was worth it.
100 saved = Even better
100,000 saved = Better yet
All saved = Waste of time




Offline WhiteWings

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 06:58:29 PM »
1 saved = Christ death was worth it.
100 saved = Even better
100,000 saved = Better yet
All saved = Waste of time

To make it even more 'correct':
1 of my denomination saved = Christ death was worth it.
100 of my denomination saved = Even better
100,000 of my denomination saved = Better yet
All denominations saved = Waste of time

In another thread AM wrote that those preaching a false gospel are in for a very bad time.
I'm sure everyone preached a false gospel. That includes UR. I'm sure it isn't 100% totally correct either.
Now take "if you break one part of the law you are guilty of all parts"
If we apply that to preaching then if only a fraction is wrong all is wrong.
What I'm trying to say is that those people that think they are part of the elect are not. Noone is part of the elect. Because noone earned being part of the elect.
Then I wonder if those 'died in vain' people at judgement day accept the gift of salvation or stick to their own standards and choose hell.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 10:00:15 PM »
I have heard the protest:

If all are going to be saved then Christ died in vain.

That's like saying:

If my house is going to be paid off in ten years then there is no reason to pay my mortgage payments.

1 saved = Christ death was worth it.
100 saved = Even better
100,000 saved = Better yet
All saved = Waste of time


I like your analysis!

What about this?

One saved themself = Christ's death not necessary
100 saved themselves = Chist's death not necessary
100,000 saved themselves = Christ's death not necessary
Christ's death saves all mankind = Christ's death in vain.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 12:45:13 AM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

bobf

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2009, 11:47:49 PM »

I like your analysis!

What about this?

One saved themselves = Christ's death not necessary
100 saved themselves = Chist's death not necessary
100,000 saved themselves = Christ's death not necessary
Christ's death saves all mankind = Christ's death in vain.

Cool!

Along the same lines... how about this one.

There is none good, no not one, none that understandeth, none that seeketh after God.

But among the none-good, none-seeking-God, no-not-one:
1. There are the many really no good none-good
2. And there are the few somewhat good none-good who, from the depths of their none-good hearts, conjure up the will-power to repent of their none-goodness.

The few none-goods are actaully no better than the many none-goods, because... well.... because Paul said so - "what then, are we better than they?  No in no wise".  Still God uses their somewhat-good none-goodness as the basis for their salvation:  He calls that "faith".

« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 11:51:22 PM by bobf »

bobf

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2009, 11:59:17 PM »
To make it even more 'correct':
1 of my denomination saved = Christ death was worth it.
100 of my denomination saved = Even better
100,000 of my denomination saved = Better yet
All denominations saved = Waste of time

In another thread AM wrote that those preaching a false gospel are in for a very bad time.
I'm sure everyone preached a false gospel. That includes UR. I'm sure it isn't 100% totally correct either.
Now take "if you break one part of the law you are guilty of all parts"
If we apply that to preaching then if only a fraction is wrong all is wrong.
What I'm trying to say is that those people that think they are part of the elect are not. Noone is part of the elect. Because noone earned being part of the elect.
Then I wonder if those 'died in vain' people at judgement day accept the gift of salvation or stick to their own standards and choose hell.

I think there is an "elect" but I don't think anyone earns being part of the elect or can will himself to be elect.  It is by God's righteous choice to save each person at the time God chooses.

The notion that people knowingly choose to torture themselves for all eternity is absurd.  In the real world we would say such a person who "throws himself into fire" is in need of mental healing, not punishment.



Offline Doc

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 12:29:28 AM »
I tend to think that those who think that if all are saved then Christ died in vain, tend to be the same people who have this kind of mindset, right now in their walk:

"well if some people get to just do whatever they want and they are NOT going to hell because of it, and I'm over here going to church, then I'm going to church and I'm wasting my time being "good" for NOTHING!"  :thewife:


They get really angry when talking about God saving all.  :thewife:  But... they are truly having a wrong perspective. They aren't going to see the beauty of UR until they shed what NEEDS to be shed from their views. Until they get the RIGHT perspective, until their pespective SHIFTS... they are not going to see it or understand it. And they SHOULDN'T see it...UNTIL that shift in perspective takes place.

me thinks.

edited to add: There are all sorts of reasons why a person would think God saving all means Christ died in vain. But the example I gave above, is something I have seen with my own eyes. They see spirituality as a "chore". That's a wrong perspective... it doesn' mean they're bad people, just not seeing something properly, that's all.

Part of the problem is that they are stuck in the tree of knowledge of good and evil thinking vs. tree of life thinking. They are constantly trying to discern between and choose the good over the evil, when they are both from the same tree. They need to eat of the tree of life, stop "doing" and start "being". They have decided what is good and what is evil, instead of letting God decide what is right. This is the spirit of antichrist at work. (Not judging them, just saying).

Even logically speaking, the "argument" they make is hogwash. Why would something being 100% effective make it worthless?
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline legoman

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 02:28:34 PM »
Good posts all.

This is the argument that maybe frustrates me the most - because its such an illogical argument.

If all will be saved, then it was pointless for Christ to come?!?

Then how will we be saved!?!?

If everyone in the burning building will be saved, then it was pointless for the firemen to come I guess...

If anything I think they may be hiding the ineffectiveness of their own beliefs in Christ.  Christ came to save the world, but only maybe 5% are going to be saved... hmm that to me sounds like Christ died in vain.

Its just so backwards, yet they don't realize it.  I guess I can't blame them as it can only be a miracle of God that they don't see it...

Legoman

Offline legoman

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 03:19:44 PM »
Some further thoughts on this: 

I think why this argument comes up is that they (the ET believer) assumes, that Jesus will only save people while they are in this life.

And then the universalist must believe that "something else" saves everyone else that wasn't saved.  Therefore Christ died in vain since "something else" will save everyone "anyway".

This is the critical error.  The only thing that will save us is Jesus, and it won't be done "anyway" - it will be done God's way!

It seems there is a mental block in making the realization that Jesus can still keep on saving people after they have died and after they have been resurrected to judgement.

So with this view, there is some "logic" to the "Christ died in vain" argument.  But they make an incorrect assumption that Jesus stops saving after a person's death.

Legoman

Offline chuckt

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 03:35:38 PM »
They are saying: "It's not fair that others who didn't believe get the same reward as I do."
So for them believing=work


reminds me of the workers in the field, all getting the same pay, those that worked all day complained.

peace
chuckt
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 04:38:15 PM »
It seems there is a mental block in making the realization that Jesus can still keep on saving people after they have died and after they have been resurrected to judgement.

So with this view, there is some "logic" to the "Christ died in vain" argument.  But they make an incorrect assumption that Jesus stops saving after a person's death.

What exactly makes the ETs claim saving ends at death? Is there a verse that supports that?
Lemme guess... the rich man wasn't allowed to get out of hell (to warn his brothers)
More verses?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline chuckt

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2009, 04:45:31 PM »
It seems there is a mental block in making the realization that Jesus can still keep on saving people after they have died and after they have been resurrected to judgement.

So with this view, there is some "logic" to the "Christ died in vain" argument.  But they make an incorrect assumption that Jesus stops saving after a person's death.

What exactly makes the ETs claim saving ends at death? Is there a verse that supports that?
Lemme guess... the rich man wasn't allowed to get out of hell (to warn his brothers)
More verses?



one could even say true salvation BEGINS at death.

chuckt
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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2009, 05:01:18 PM »
What exactly makes the ETs claim saving ends at death? Is there a verse that supports that?
Lemme guess... the rich man wasn't allowed to get out of hell (to warn his brothers)
More verses?


That seems to be the main one.

Offline legoman

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Re: If all will be saved then Christ died in vain
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2009, 06:51:38 PM »
What exactly makes the ETs claim saving ends at death? Is there a verse that supports that?
Lemme guess... the rich man wasn't allowed to get out of hell (to warn his brothers)
More verses?


That seems to be the main one.

Yes the Rich Man & Lazarus is always shown as proof of not getting out of eternal hell.

But the main verse I've seen people use to show that salvation is no longer available after death is this one:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment


Clearly, after death comes judgement, at which point it is too late to be saved if you aren't already, so its off to the eternal lake of fire for you.  Too bad you can't be saved at that point, even if you had a change of heart.  I mean everyone would repent in about 6 nanoseconds as they were being dropped into the lake of fire, so we can't have that.  At least that's what they (ET believer's) say...

Never mind that the lake of fire is not actually eternal.  And never mind that God's judgement actually has a purpose other than punishment & torment:

Isaiah 26:9 ... for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


A ha!  There we have it.  God will judge us so we will become righteous... and then He will throw us into the lake of fire to burn forever!?!  (at least they are now righteous as they burn... !)

The whole problem is there are so many layers and layers of scripture that have been so cleverly twisted - a tangled web of deception.  It takes a while to untangle it all, but its all so circular it supports itself.  ie. judgement leads to eternal hell for some, therefore there is no second chance.  Therefore Jesus doesn't save after a certain point.  Therefore we can choose to go to hell and God can't stop us.  Therefore we can override God's sovereign will to save us all.  Therefore God just lets some go to hell because he loves us that much.

Its all so twisted.  I find it quite interesting - like reading a really good detective novel.

You will not find one scripture that says Jesus will stop saving or that Jesus will fail.  In fact it is already finished!  The saving effort was finished on the cross.  All that's left is for Gods plan to unfold - all will come to Christ on God's timetable.  Some before death, the rest after death.

Legoman