Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation

How can we get true salvation?

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70sevens:
Hello,

The most important matter in our life is salvation by Christ.
All debates, discussions, studies about Jesus would be useless if we are unsaved.
So we need to make sure whether we are within the salvation as we are deadly sure we are.
Otherwise on the day we will be answerable to this passage.

[Mat 7:22-23]
22/ Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23/ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is a part of the Sermon on the Mount which all along talks
about the Kingdom of God. i.e. salvation.
I am talking about the kingdom of God coming into us while alive(Luk 17:21).

How can we get TRUE salvation?
As it appears that there are false ones around
according to the above scripture.

Regards,

willieH:
willieH: Hi 70sevens... :hithere:


--- Quote from: 70sevens on September 28, 2007, 08:13:50 AM ---Thank you for welcoming me, WilleH.
--- End quote ---



--- Quote from: willieH ---Your words make SALVATION dependent upon yourself 70... Your Salvation is of CHRIST... and IS began and completed BY HIM...
The grave mistake that the ones in Mat 7:21-23 make, is they do this same thing... noting THEY did the works, and the preaching, and the casting out of devils INSTEAD of CREDITING CHRIST with using THEM as His tools to do these things...
So instead of these things gaining GOD's approval... they gain His DISDAIN... and REJECTION...
JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, and that SALVATION is HIS WORK alone... (Eph 6:9 / John 12:3 / 1 Tim 4:9-11 / Heb 12:2)
--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---Salvation is ours when Jesus Christ is in us.
If Jesus Christ is not present in us, we are not saved.
So when Jesus are saying to the ones in Mat 7:21-23,
"depart!" it means seperation from the Jesus Christ.
Of course to them no salvation given.
--- End quote ---

First, you are making assumptions here... because,

My new friend, SALVATION is NOT even mentioned in this set of verses, is it?

Don't you see that JESUS in this context is speaking of ...WORKS? that these men or women are boasting about?

In a previous verse just before, He says:

(vs 18):  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit)

OUR WORKS (moments of our lives) shall be JUDGED... the WORKS presented in these verses by these which call JESUS Lord, are JUDGED iniquity... but nothing is said to them that THEY they are not saved  :dontknow:  CHRIST is noting "get out of here with that garbage"... something like GOD told CAIN... when he brought UNACCEPTABLE offerings before YHVH...


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---No,
the ones in Mat 7:21-23 did the works and the preaching in the name of the Lord(Verse 22).
It means that they creditted Christ in doing such things.
--- End quote ---

They aren't CREDITING JESUS at all!  ...they are busy patting themselves on the back by crediting themselves...

They did not humbly mention that CHRIST had used them as His tools to "preach' (prophesy), cast out devils, or do WONDERFUL works... they were boasting of themselves bro!  Read it:

...have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name?
and ["have WE"] in Thy name cast out devils?
and in Thy name ["have WE"] DONE done many wonderful works?


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---Yes, I agree that salvation is entirely of Jesus Christ.
But that does not mean that we need not to check where we are.
--- End quote ---

YES 70sevens... we must continue to SUBMIT to CHRIST... but when that SUBMISSION in us, from that point it is HIM, doing the WORKS... WE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---We have to check whether we are off the way of salvation before we die.
--- End quote ---

It is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death... Where does it say that ONE cannot be saved in the RESURRECTION 70?  :Book:

PAUL noted that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved 70!  How could he make such a statement when so very FEW JEWS believed in CHRIST ...then OR now? (Rom 11:26)


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---Otherwise we will be thinking that we are saved,
but on the day we will found ourselves away from the Christ,
like the one in Mat 7:21-23.
--- End quote ---

SALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70... it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men... it is not up to MEN to save themselves (by "thinking")... 

JESUS CHRIST ...IS... the Savior of the WORLD 70... (1 John 2:2 / 4:14)


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---Paul said
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.
Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
[2Cor13:5]
--- End quote ---

Again 70... this "examination" does NOT determine your SALVATION... It determines whether or not you are being true to BOTH CHRIST, and at the same time to, ...YOURSELF...

As John noted: (1 John 1:8)  If ...WE SAY... that we have NO sin we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT ...IN US.


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men.
Yes right.
But not all men want salvation.
--- End quote ---

Again 70... SALVATION is not based upon "what we WANT"... it is based upon the WILL and WORK of JESUS CHRIST...

HE is the Author (beginning/alpha) and Finisher (completion/omega) of SALVATION (Heb 12:2 / Eph 2:8-9)

No man CAN come to CHRIST, except YHVH draws [drag] him to the Savior... (John 6:44 / 12:32)


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---Of all men, those who do not want salvation cannot be saved.
--- End quote ---

Do you really think that MEN make the call on LIFE or DEATH?  The Scriptures say that JESUS CHRIST hold THESE KEYS 70! (Rev 1:18)

Concerning THIS LIFE 70... were YOU consulted?  Did God ask you, "Hey 70... wanna be BORN?  Who do you want as parents?  What country do you wish to live in?  How long do you wish to live?  What ERA of TIME fits your fancy?"  Of course He didnt... and that was only about a short span of time, NOT ETERNITY!

When it comes to LIFE, dear 70... GOD makes the call... about ALL THINGS... we are the beneficiarys of GRACE and LOVE, not the controllers of IT... nor is the CLAY able to dictate to the POTTER, how and when to do what He does...  :mshock:  What He does is SAVE us from our SIN... and is NO RESPECTER of persons (impartial) (Acts 10:34)


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---Think about those Jews who met Jesus some 2k years back.
Not all of them saved, but only those who saved were saved.
--- End quote ---

I already showed you Scripture that STATES that ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED... you, at present are unable to see this, and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend!    :happygrin:
 
Peace b unto U  :thumbsup:

in  JESUS   willieH :gamer:

97531:

--- Quote from: 70sevens ---The most important matter in our life is salvation by Christ.
All debates, discussions, studies about Jesus would be useless if we are unsaved.
--- End quote ---

So by implication, an unbeliever cannot discuss the salvation of Jesus?  What if he/she is sent here by the Holy Spirit to learn get revelation, are we to dismiss a non-believer?  What about atheists, agnostics, Muslims et al?  This reeks of exclusivism.

Joh 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw(1670) [drags] him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45  It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.

G1670 ελκύω, έλκω helkuō  helkō hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.  (Read the context on this thread Many Mansions)


--- Quote from: 70sevens ---So we need to make sure whether we are within the salvation as we are deadly sure we are.
Otherwise on the day we will be answerable to this passage.
--- End quote ---


Now how is one to determine they are saved?  I will be interested to hear your take on this.

Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19  Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20  Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21  Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!


I really wonder who Jesus is speaking to here?  Notice the red bits.  Does that sound like something an unbeliever does or will do?  I don't think so.  How does one cast out a demon/devil in the name of Jesus if you do not first believe in Jesus?

Particularly, Jesus is talking to those self righteous pious people who take the credit for the works (gifts) of the Holy Spirit, there are many and yes God uses them if no one else is available.

Jesus did not come to condemn, he came to save.  He came to restore man to God as God desires a personal relationship with each one of us.  Those "Christians" who operate in the gifts as God desires (the gifts are part of salvation) and never get to truly know God in person are those referred to here in this scripture.  Notice, the preceding "By their fruits you shall know them"  I have seen these "prophets", "ministers of deliverance", "mighty workers" etc. and they are 1/7th Christians, their fruit on the other 6 days do not portray that of a man/woman of God.  God does the works, not the people.

A non believer will not Prophesy in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do deliverance in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do any mighty works in the name of Jesus.

Yet we find unbelievers that are more considerate than Christians in that they;

Mat 25:33  and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34  `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Mat 25:35  for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
Mat 25:36  naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37  `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
Mat 25:38  and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
Mat 25:39  and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
Mat 25:40  `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .

The point I make here is the judgement met out is to whom?  Righteous or unrighteous?

Traditionally we have been taught this is the unbelievers, no, it is the believers that should have known better.  I think many Christians will be surprised at the WTJ as to who actually receive crowns of righteousness.

Luk 17:20  And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation.
Luk 17:21  Nor shall they say, Lo here! or, behold, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.
Luk 17:22  And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you shall not see it.

The kingdom of God had descended with Jesus yet the pious and righteous of the day did not see/perceive it.  Just as it is today, many Christians do not see the Kingdom as they are still blinded from the truth by the doctrines of men.  Until the Holy Spirit guides us to search out God in prayer and the scriptures, we remain blind.  People follow signs and wonders but fail to see the WHO that is actually responsible for it.  Jesus was very clear when He said

Mat 6:33  But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things (all other things such as food, clothing, signs and wonders) shall be added to you.
 
Mar 16:17  And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;

True salvation is only through Jesus.  Some may find it in this life others later.  We preach Jesus here, we do not teach Jesus or Buddha or Hari Krishna or Mohamed or whatever.

Every knee shall bow to the glory of the Father.  Jesus died for ALL men's sins, past present and future.  It IS the ultimate final atonement for sin.

If the Father does not draw men, how then can they be held accountable for their sins, that is why Jesus is the appropriation for ALL mankind's sin.

1Co 15:20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
1Co 15:21  For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
1Co 15:24  then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25  for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26  The last enemy made to cease is death.

And the wages of sin is Death, not Eternal Torment.

Blessings

70sevens:
Hi Willie,

I did not quote all your words. Please understand.

1. "The Word SALVATION isn't even mentioned here, but WORKS."

What is salvation?
Salvation means that the becoming one with Jesus Christ by receiving HIM into our mind.
So when Jesus says "Depart" to someone, that means the one is not saved.
Because it means separation from the Jesus Christ, the life.
When we are in Christ, we are saved and we are in life.

About Works :
This does not mean a certain kind actions as we normally think.
The works represent the doer, himself.
The works and the doer are one.
You mention good verse, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
So if we brought forth evil fruit(iniquity), then we, ourselves, are evil trees.

Also you mentioned CAIN,
CAIN's offering was rejected.
But if you read carefully what was rejected was not the offering alone.
CAIN himself was also rejected.
 
[Gen 4:5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

So good tree bring forth good fruit, evil tree being forth evil fruit.

The ones in Mat 7:21-23 are spiritually CAIN's generation
who believe in Jesus (GOD) in their own way.
Naturally, they shouldn't be saved,
as the evil tree should not bear good fruit. That's the truth.

2.  Boasting themselves

Yes, that is the one of the characteristics of evil trees.
But try to see the tree itself, not fruits.
Fruits comes from the trees.
Apostle Paul he sometimes did boast himself,
but knowing that He, himself is good tree, that boasting is also good fruit.
(I beg you to read this part carefully.)

3.  WE are no longer "calling the shots"... HE IS...

I do not quite understand this part. Sorry.

4.  It is not ORDAINED that ALL be saved before their death...

God gave Jesus for us to be saved before we die.
Why do we wish to wait until we die.
If you are worrying about other people, Mighty GOD will care.
In believing Jesus, it is all and everything that I, myself, is to be saved before death.

I do not know how you understand RESURRECTION,
but if we are saved we are resurrected from the dead.
We will see the Kingdom of God out there.

5.  ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

Paul did not mean that all Israel shall be saved at the time of resurrection.
Resurrection is not such a day.
Now all Israel do not believe in Jesus,
but in God's time I think they also accept Jesus as their Savior.

Anyhow, it is not my concern when all Israel shall be saved.
My concern is that I should be saved now here.
Selfish?  No. I should be saved first, then I can reach helping hand
out to my beloved neighbors.

6. SALVATION is not up to "our thinking" 70...
    it is up to JESUS CHRIST to save men...

We do not have to over-emphasize this, even if it is truth.
When we talk about salvation, you have to "think (or recognize)" "salvation"
unless otherwise no point talking.
Further, I did not say our thinking would save us.

Please try to think what you are trying to say about salvation.
I presume you are explaining salvation unreachable, unrecognizable fantasy kind of thing.
Salvation is our status being with GOD(Christ) as one.
According to Scripture that is IMMANUEL (God is with us) brought by Jesus.

If one is saved, he should know that salvation is upon him.
How can we not know when the Almighty GOD is upon us?
Paul ask us to examine this by ourselves.

Yes, all this salvation process is started and completed by Jesus.
When this process starts within us, we have to decide whether to follow our old self or Jesus.
In salvation, Jesus will lead us first if we do not follow his leading, no salvation will be given.
That is so obvious.

In other terms, if we follow our old self we will be unsaved. If we follow Jesus, we will be saved.
In this thread Jesus says as below :
[Mat 10:39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's why I mentioned earlier that some do not want follow Jesus to be saved.

7.  "and THAT is probably WHY God has led you here to TENTMAKER my new friend!"

The water runs from higher place to lower place. 
We will see it how.

Warmest Regards.

Kratos:
70,

Welcome back. I just want to touch one point that you made about resurrection. You stated something to the effect that only the saved are resurrected. This is not true. Take a look at the verses below:

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There are two resurrections mentioned on these verses. The first resurrection is for the Overcoming believers who will rule and reign with Christ. The second resurrection is of both the righteuos and the wicked so God can continue His work of purifying His Kingdom by dealing with and consuming all that offends in us. Believers that have not Overcome as described in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation are raised in the second resurrrection with those who rejected Christ.

Your mistake, in my opinion, is limiting God's power to save to this present life and this present age. Peter acknowledged that this inability to understand the patience and longsuffering of God and how time does not hinder God's will being done in the below verses:

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I would humbly submit to you, my Brother, that you heed the words of the Holy Spirit through Peter. Do not be ignorant that thousands of years are but days to God and He will wait for the whole harvest of mankind. He cannot be frustrated or defeated in His will being done and it is His will that none perish and all come to repentence. Do not make the mistake of assuming that the will of man is stronger or longer lasting than the will of God when it comes to the salvation of all men.

Blessings,

John

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