Author Topic: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!  (Read 2604 times)

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NinjaWizards777

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Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« on: March 27, 2009, 08:55:42 PM »
I get a christian magazine in the mail called "Ignite" thats aimed towards college students and the like, and in the Q & A section a girl writes:

"Why is there a hell if all sins are forgiven?"

Though the article is rather short, ill just type what made my stomach turn the most

"[Hell]'s the place for people who want nothing to do with God. Heaven is not for anyone who doesnt want to spend eternity in Gods presence.

God offers each of us reconcilliation and forgiveness...but if you spent your whole life ignoring or avoiding life with God, he's not going to compel you to live with him."


And the more Christians I talk to the more I get this type of "they dont want God" crap generalization. So your telling me that everyone who isnt "saved" in this life by stumbeling upon the "right" things to believe automaticly doesnt want anything to do with God? But If Gods as amazing as he says he is...who honestly would NOT want to spend eternity with Him?

The only reason why people "reject" God in this life is either because they havent been introduced at all or they dont understand Him for who he really is(and really who can FULLY understand him til we are with him in eternity)?

Im tired of this generalization that choosing heaven over "hell" is as simple and clear as choosing an apple from an orange. Its not as if theirs a check-out point where your asked "Do you want to go spend eternity in paradise with God or in a pit of weeping burning people in Hell where you will be tortured til the end of time?"

What type of insane person fully believing and understanding would choose Hell over God? its not that clear, its not that simple. Yet the entire christian community, including myself for many years has bought this lie hook-line-and-sinker, to just simply "pass off" any feelings of empathy for those poor hell bound sinners. After all...they made their "choice" right?

...ridiculous...

I am purely still open to debate both sides with ET and UR but one thing I wish would just away out of our culture and out of the debate would be that common misconception
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 08:59:57 PM by NinjaWizards777 »

Offline sven

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 09:09:17 PM »
what about Muslims, Buddhists, Jews? according to fundamentalistic mainstream they'll also go to hell, though some of them might really love God or at least think so.

it's impossible to find a rational argument to defend the doctrine of eternal torment, as the Bible doesn't teach it in my view, they can only find unscriptural arguments.

The wages of sin is death, why should God force sinners to live a horrible eternal life?

but many can neither believe that a soul ceaces to exist nor that eventually all are saved, so they must believe in hell, if even it is unpleasant to them, so they must find rational arguments to justify it - that they can bear it I think.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 09:15:29 PM by sven »

Offline Doc

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 09:21:15 PM »
I get a christian magazine in the mail called "Ignite" thats aimed towards college students and the like, and in the Q & A section a girl writes:

"Why is there a hell if all sins are forgiven?"

Though the article is rather short, ill just type what made my stomach turn the most

"[Hell]'s the place for people who want nothing to do with God. Heaven is not for anyone who doesnt want to spend eternity in Gods presence.

God offers each of us reconcilliation and forgiveness...but if you spent your whole life ignoring or avoiding life with God, he's not going to compel you to live with him."


And the more Christians I talk to the more I get this type of "they dont want God" crap generalization. So your telling me that everyone who isnt "saved" in this life by stumbeling upon the "right" things to believe automaticly doesnt want anything to do with God? But If Gods as amazing as he says he is...who honestly would NOT want to spend eternity with Him?

The only reason why people "reject" God in this life is either because they havent been introduced at all or they dont understand Him for who he really is(and really who can FULLY understand him til we are with him in eternity)?

Im tired of this generalization that choosing heaven over "hell" is as simple and clear as choosing an apple from an orange. Its not as if theirs a check-out point where your asked "Do you want to go spend eternity in paradise with God or in a pit of weeping burning people in Hell where you will be tortured til the end of time?"

What type of insane person fully believing and understanding would choose Hell over God? its not that clear, its not that simple. Yet the entire christian community, including myself for many years has bought this lie hook-line-and-sinker, to just simply "pass off" any feelings of empathy for those poor hell bound sinners. After all...they made their "choice" right?

...ridiculous...

I am purely still open to debate both sides with ET and UR but one thing I wish would just away out of our culture and out of the debate would be that common misconception

Well, this is essentially one of the points that Thomas Talbott makes in The Inescapable Love of God. He argues that we cannot make a "freewill" choice against something that we don't understand completely. To really know God is to love Him.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
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martincisneros

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 09:46:21 PM »
Matthew 7 indicates that it's for those who do the works of Jesus but don't obey Lord Jesus.  In other words, there might be absolutely nothing wrong with what someone is doing whatsoever -- except, He wanted something else from them, whether that was geographical, something related to the useage of their money and time, the severing and grafting of key relationships to be severed or grafted in, more time in worship and fewer "miracle crusades" so that the focus was always upon the Cross that made complete recovery possible instead of upon the way that the modern media can turn absolutely anything you can think of into a circus, etc., regardless of how purely motivated.  It's as though the whole Body is a web and each member is supposed to be where they were supposed to be.  Not somewhere else.  Not doing something else just as good.

2Thessalonians 1 says the same thing with flaming fire on the disobedient.  Many times we've thought that sin was anything that went against love, but you look at the New Testament a little more closely and it's not just what violates love and godly sanctification, but anything that violates the specific will of God for each individual.  The guy who buried his talent was just looking to avoid excessive heat and scrutiny, but wound up going into the lake of fire and brimstone.  In none of the above cases that I'm talking about is anyone looking to be without God.  Romans 1 even begins with something as simple as unthankfulness in talking about those deserving of death who are not only doing these deeds but are applauding those who are doing them. 

Unthankfulness doesn't necessarily mean wanting to be without someone for eternity, for an age, etc.  It can be a root of bitterness, or just thoughtlessness because of letting one's self become too busy.  Matthew 25 is about nations that didn't do what they should have done in the parable of the sheep and goats.  It's not about nations that didn't want anything to do with God.  Read the indictments.  It's not the forbidding of prayer in school, but neglecting prisoners, the hungry, the poorly clothed, etc.  In absolutely all of the passages it's about not doing the right thing or about not doing what you yourself should have been doing, or it's about false doctrines and an unrenewed mind to the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. 

It's about not being where you should have been when you should have been there.  It's neglect as in the case of the guy who buried his talent.  I have yet to find the passage that says that it's the total refusal of God.  It's as though the concept didn't even exist in the first century.  It's always about "were you submitted to Who you were supposed to be submitted to?" "did you do the right thing?"  "did you do what you yourself were supposed to be doing?"  "were you thankful?"  I haven't found anything else to come up in the Bible in a New Covenant context.  Motives come up a surprisingly small number of times.  Perhaps Romans 2, but in the context of what the rest of the New Testament was saying, I wouldn't try to squeak by on what I meant.

Obviously proving the limited duration of anything related to punishment in the Scriptures and that there are emphatic promises of Universal Restoration virtually suffices for the case against an eternal Hell.  But I believe the question was about why there was a Hell to start with and what was the nature of the circumstances by which one could find themselves there.  The rest of the boards and of this website explore the nature, demensions, and substance of Hell, so I didn't want to spend any real time on that.  But what gets you into Hell isn't all of the things that people have thought like tobacco, alcohol, failing to knock upon enough doors and pass out enough Christian literature, etc.

Offline Doc

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 09:51:42 PM »
And in a lot of ways Martin, that's scarier than the dominant paradigm.  :mshock:

God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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Jerm

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 05:07:47 AM »
If the only message of God and Jesus I ever recieved was one presented by most Christians for the past couple of centuries, I wouldn't want anything to do with Him either.  This is something many never think about.  Here's a perfect analogy of what I'm talking about:  Imagine that your living your life peacefully with your mother, father, and sister on your farm.  Your life is simple and peaceful and this is all you know.  One day an army shows and turns everything into chaos.  Almost all of your friends and neighbors are killed.  Your land is burned to the ground and you personally witness your entire family killed at the hands of these invaders.  All the while they declare that this conquest was in the name of their god and that you should worship this god as well.  Tell me, what would your response be?  Since this the only "Gospel" that many people in our world have ever seen (think the American Indians for example) is it any wonder that people want "nothing to do with God?"  It breaks my heart to say this but to be perfectly honest, I believe that the great cause behind most people's rejection of God is due to "Christians." 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2009, 09:16:58 AM »
Included in that Jerm, I think is how we believers often handle the Word.  I think a lot of people end up with their hell doctrines, in part, when they mix in what Jesus was saying about the Kingdom and the Jews in relation to that...went to a recent Bible study where they were pulling scripture from all over the place, including Matthew and Revelation...we ended up with things about giving all to the poor, "we're perfect when we get saved, then it's up to us", etc...it was my first time there so I was hesitant to get into much beyond the basics...I think the main point was seeking Jesus above things of the world, but then people start taking scriptures out of context and here go the diversity of doctrines...again, I think hell comes out of/gets reinforced with some of that. 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 09:20:55 AM by jabcat »

IceDash

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 01:26:37 PM »
Didn't the bible said "no one seeking God"

dumb church didn't notice it huh? :laughing7:

Jerm

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2009, 04:22:15 PM »
Included in that Jerm, I think is how we believers often handle the Word.  I think a lot of people end up with their hell doctrines, in part, when they mix in what Jesus was saying about the Kingdom and the Jews in relation to that...went to a recent Bible study where they were pulling scripture from all over the place, including Matthew and Revelation...we ended up with things about giving all to the poor, "we're perfect when we get saved, then it's up to us", etc...it was my first time there so I was hesitant to get into much beyond the basics...I think the main point was seeking Jesus above things of the world, but then people start taking scriptures out of context and here go the diversity of doctrines...again, I think hell comes out of/gets reinforced with some of that. 

Yep, very good point jabcat.  In fact, the very doctrince of eternal hell is due to mishandling the Word (mistranslating aionion kolasis.) 

aspiring son

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 10:15:16 PM »
It also has to do with hidden self-righteousness. Christians wantto believe that they chose God. I did. I use to say it was my choice. But the scripture clearly says otherwise. Plus, most people get caught up in the "fear factor". I've heard christians on t.v. say they became a christian mainly because they didn't want to go to hell. They did choose...out  of fear. But the spirit never lead them in love.

Grace and peace

Jerm

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 01:25:56 AM »
It also has to do with hidden self-righteousness. Christians wantto believe that they chose God. I did. I use to say it was my choice. But the scripture clearly says otherwise. Plus, most people get caught up in the "fear factor". I've heard christians on t.v. say they became a christian mainly because they didn't want to go to hell. They did choose...out  of fear. But the spirit never lead them in love.

Grace and peace

The fear factor is an interesting thing.  I've heard ETers say that people can't choose God after death because their choice would be motivated out of fear and not love.  Yet as you pointed out, how many people "choose" God in this life because they are scared of burning forever!  That's not love, that's survival instincts!

Offline Doc

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 01:28:20 AM »
Fire Insurance "salvation" really gets on my nerves these days.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

IceDash

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 02:00:47 AM »
It also has to do with hidden self-righteousness. Christians wantto believe that they chose God. I did. I use to say it was my choice. But the scripture clearly says otherwise. Plus, most people get caught up in the "fear factor". I've heard christians on t.v. say they became a christian mainly because they didn't want to go to hell. They did choose...out  of fear. But the spirit never lead them in love.

Grace and peace

The fear factor is an interesting thing.  I've heard ETers say that people can't choose God after death because their choice would be motivated out of fear and not love.  Yet as you pointed out, how many people "choose" God in this life because they are scared of burning forever!  That's not love, that's survival instincts!

You spoke the truth of the human's terrible secret, amen!

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 08:11:26 AM »
"[Hell]'s the place for people who want nothing to do with God. Heaven is not for anyone who doesnt want to spend eternity in Gods presence.

God offers each of us reconcilliation and forgiveness...but if you spent your whole life ignoring or avoiding life with God, he's not going to compel you to live with him."

A friend said some things like that her pastor this Sunday had said about "hell."  If they can't distinguish the various underlying Greek or Hebrew words that "hell" has been pasted over that Scripture nowhere says are to be equated then I know they likely haven't done much study in the word concerning it or are only trying to please men, which is worse.  But that digresses.

Scripture says that those in the lake of fire are "tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin." (Rv 14:10, CLV)

"...for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him." (Col 1:17, CLV)  The phrase, "all has its cohesion in Him" is rendered by Young's Literal as, "the all things in him have consisted."  Lightfoot says of this, "He is the principal of cohesion in the universe."  Of this phrase Lohse says, "God Himself is the unifying band which encompasses everything and holds it together.  This applies not only to the largest things of the universe, but also to the smallest things of the universe."

Also, what The New English Bible rendered as, "He's the Source, and the Guide, and the Goal of everything everywhere," is more literally "...out of Him and through Him and for Him is all..." (Romans 11:36, CLV)  "Through," Greek: dia, is more intimate than just "by the means of" Him.  It speaks of an intermingling, an interdependance.  Where there is no God there is nothing at all.  "By Him all things consist."

I think this has been derived from Jesus telling the sheep nations or the workers of lawlessness to depart from Him.  But again, Scripture says, "Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ.  For He is our Peace, Who makes both one...And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near..." (Ephesians 2:13-14, 17, CLV)  It is not to be gone from God only gone farther away.  To depart from Him on His word, which is precious seed, is to learn something, as it says, "He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him." (Psalm 126:6, AV)

As far as putting ourselves in the lake of fire, Scripture, whenever it describes how it happens (to death and hades, the beast, the devil and the false prophet -- the only things we can quote actual Bible words that directly say what goes into it) it says, "...were 'cast' into," which means"forcibly thrown," not voluntary climbing into.

These things are part of "hell lite" which is popular with those who are ignorant of Scripture in more ways than one.  They don't like God to look so bad, unless they are just trying to please their donors.  Hopefully their conscience will kick in and they'll go looking for Scripture explanations.  Even a little logic might induce a search for something more internally consistent.  Like, the title of this thread, "Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!"  These are the people who neither know God nor are they supposed to be allowed to, being wicked and God is holy, etc.  How could they be justly judged with an unceasing for ever evil for rejecting what they never knew?  John says judgement is based on light.  Don't get me started...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:15:57 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Jerm

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 03:27:19 PM »
Something else that always bothered me about this interpretation of Hell:  If everyone that is sent there truly wants nothing to do with God, then why is it such a horrible place to go?  They should be happy because they're getting what they wanted, right?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 03:53:39 PM »


All the christians who say they believe in God but use the bible to crush the spirits of those who seek truth really refuse to believe that most of the biblical warnings are for them and their VILE ways, forsaking the natural use of men and women.


Offline Doc

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 10:52:30 PM »
Something else that always bothered me about this interpretation of Hell:  If everyone that is sent there truly wants nothing to do with God, then why is it such a horrible place to go?  They should be happy because they're getting what they wanted, right?

Good observation. Well-spotted.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

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Offline Doc

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Re: Hell: the place for people that want nothing to do with God!
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 10:55:16 PM »


All the christians who say they believe in God but use the bible to crush the spirits of those who seek truth really refuse to believe that most of the biblical warnings are for them and their VILE ways, forsaking the natural use of men and women.



 :thumbsup:

This is the same idea that Jesus blasted the Pharisees with...

You don't enter in yourselves, and prevent others who would enter, making them twice the sons of "hell" that you are.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur