Hell preachers

[Beloved Servant]

lol...ok, I get it you don't believe in predestination. That's ok - we can agree to disagree on that. But praise God that we both have the revelation of His unfailing mercy for all mankind. 

Don't put words in my mouth.

False modesty is as much a sin as false pride.

But don't think for one moment that anyone is less in the Eyes of the Lord whether he is homeless and hungry or a corporate executive wrapped in lust and greed.

It's all vapor.

[jabcat]

Vicstar, I've stated before - and have an almost life-long perspective - that every ET believer I've ever personally known truly believes in ET because they think that's what the Bible teaches.  I did.  I was sincere.  Sincerely wrong, but still sincere.  So IMO, that's one aspect of it;  honest belief.

Another aspect can enter in with the doctrine, one of disdain, desire of retribution, etc.  But in my experience that's not been the over-riding factor, and many, many don't feel that way.  It can certainly become a part of it, but again, I believe most truly just believe the doctrine to be true and believe they are being faithful to God in doing so.  After all, the "church" has taught it "as the gospel" for the past what, 1500 years?       My dad believed and preached ET until his 70's, and I remember him saying before he passed, "I don't want anybody to go to hell".  He prayed and wept for many people's souls.

(side note - I also believe the ecclesia are pre-destined;  and all the rest are destined :)

Blessings, James.

[jabcat]

This just maybe my folly, but why do you suppose great preachers and evangelists such as D.L.Moody,  Charles Spurgen, Calvin, Johnathan Edwards, who surely read the Word of God, that spoke greatly of God's love, chose to preach a message to millions of how that God of love would carry such a vendetta, that was so hateful.
How is it they chose a message of fear rather than love to win, as they said, souls?
I know why today that message is preached, contend if you will, but it is for money.

Thanks and Peace. 

I believe "we" often interpret and understand the scriptures through the lense of what we've been taught and what tradition and "orthodoxy" tell us is acceptable and what we are to believe.  People in religion talk of orthodoxy as if it's a good thing;  you know, there's a certain set of beliefs, that to be accepted, one has to adhere to.  I think those things can intensely color our view.  I've known hundreds if not thousands of ET believers, they were not just about money or hate, or retribution.  They thought they were pleasing God by believing "what [they thought] He said".  (Most mainstream translations still have the translational errors re: 'hell' from the KJV.  So it's "what the Bible says". :(

[Beloved Servant]

It's all vapor.

It's all HELL.

[sheila]

....I think our Father is very very wise..to have concluded all in disobediance....a clean sweep

[Beloved Servant]

As Jesus is the pattern; so as Adam.

[micah7:9]

the revelation of His unfailing mercy for all mankind. 

 

and they began saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of your speech that we are believing, for we have heard Him for ourselves, and we are aware that this One is truly the Savior of the world."  Jn. 4:42

 

[jabcat]

That's ok - we can agree to disagree on that. But praise God that we both have the revelation of His unfailing mercy for all mankind. 

Thanks for avoiding conflict and looking for common ground.   

[Vicstar]

Oh dear. God bless you all. 

[Cardinal]

  Again, IMO, it goes back to one teaching He gave me regarding how people do what they perceive (spiritually) thru their own darkened glass (soul), present in the hearts of the now-spiritual priesthood. The Holocaust was a corruption of one of God's principles in the OT/letter; holocaust means "burnt offering".

The Nazis had a State religion of their own, based on occultic practices, which in turn are based on corruptions of the OT sacrifices and principles. Same spirit, different outward manifestations, but just as death producing.

And so He said if you (speaking to the new priesthood) hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, you (the body we are made to be one with thru He who is our Head) have murdered him.

The religious spirit loves to follow the letter, TO THE LETTER, because it ministers condemnation, which ministers death to the hearer. My     Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Wonderful!
God is rich in mercy.

[Nathan]

This just maybe my folly, but why do you suppose great preachers and evangelists such as D.L.Moody,  Charles Spurgen, Calvin, Johnathan Edwards, who surely read the Word of God, that spoke greatly of God's love, chose to preach a message to millions of how that God of love would carry such a vendetta, that was so hateful.
How is it they chose a message of fear rather than love to win, as they said, souls?
I know why today that message is preached, contend if you will, but it is for money.

Thanks and Peace. 

I believe "we" often interpret and understand the scriptures through the lense of what we've been taught and what tradition and "orthodoxy" tell us is acceptable and what we are to believe.  People in religion talk of orthodoxy as if it's a good thing;  you know, there's a certain set of beliefs, that to be accepted, one has to adhere to.  I think those things can intensely color our view.  I've known hundreds if not thousands of ET believers, they were not just about money or hate, or retribution.  They thought they were pleasing God by believing "what [they thought] He said".  (Most mainstream translations still have the translational errors re: 'hell' from the KJV.  So it's "what the Bible says". :(

I absolutely agree . . .but am a bit perplexed due to the fact that it felt like I came under a bit of an attack when "I" said something quite similar to this.  Perhaps the oversight may be when I take it to the next level by stating I don't base my belief on what "I think" Scripture says.  I base it on the Word written "in" me, the sound that comes from within is that which transforms my inward thinking so that my outward actions manifest according to what which can't be seen.

The argument has been "how do you KNOW the difference between what God is saying and what your own mind is thinking?"  And my answer to that would be, only God's word in us produces God's nature out of us.  If the end result is not love, joy, peace, patience . . .on and on, then you know it's from the mind and not from the Spirit.  But I do believe that's why there are so many differences of beliefs.  There's been a blending of spiritual and natural.  There have not been pure birthings of spiritual truths, but instead, there's been a mixture.

We've been going through Genesis again and last night I came across the passage that speaks about Esau saw that Abraham charged Jacob "not" to marry a Canaanite woman.  Esau had already married two by then.  So . . .IN AN ATTEMPT to also get a blessing from Abraham, preferably the blessing already given to Jacob, which by then was too late anyway.  But in "HIS ATTEMPT" to obtain the blessing, he went not to Isaacs side of the family, but he went to ISHMAEL'S side, and married one of "his" daughters. 

I was just floored by the symbolism in this.  Ishmael is the offspring of what happens when his Father took matters into his own hands and the seed of promise did "not" continue on in his bloodline, even though he "was" the eldest child, the blessing was given to Isaac, the younger brother because the promise was that Abraham and his wife would have a child, not Abraham and a servant who was UNDER his wife's control.

So when Esau tries to get a blessing from "his" Father, he still doesn't understand where it comes from.  He marries a daughter of Ishmael, the one cast out of the family as a means to try to find favor with his Father for something that has already been passed on.  Not only did he miss the boat by marrying a daughter of Ishmael, but he married this woman to ADD TO THE WIVES HE ALREADY HAD . . .and THAT'S where I see the connection with mainline churches.  This idea of hell and eternal torment is something they've ADDED TO what they already beleive.  Even though it's a doctrine from the lineage of Ishmael.  There's no blessing to pass on.  There's only more frustration and despair.  Even though Esau married this woman, he still had murder in his heart.  He wanted to kill Jacob.  We have brothers out there that have murder in their hearts, they want to kill this gift of seeing that God is just that great that when he sent Jesus, it wasn't as an option for us to choose or not to choose.  He sent Jesus as the SOLUTION to bring US ALL back into alignment with the Father.

The Ishmael religion can not sustain itself.  But the Jacob anointing, now that's a whole other matter. 

[Molly]

I was just floored by the symbolism in this.  Ishmael is the offspring of what happens when his Father took matters into his own hands and the seed of promise did "not" continue on in his bloodline, even though he "was" the eldest child, the blessing was given to Isaac, the younger brother because the promise was that Abraham and his wife would have a child, not Abraham and a servant who was UNDER his wife's control.

That's kind of the fate of the older son, isn't it?  Taking matters into their own hands.  Cain, Ishmael, Esau, the Law.

Maybe this is the true meaning of 'first the natural.'

It looks to earthly eyes that this is what we should be doing -- plotting, planning, controlling,  helping things along.

But, the younger son waits on the LORD.


Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods. [Psa 40:4]

[Nathan]

hmmm . . . younger son waits on the Lord . . .not sure that was what was going on in this picture with Jacob and Esau.  It was declared while they were still in their mother's womb who would receive the blessing.  The whole story from Abraham on is following the seed.  And like a leaf on a river, there are some really turbulant waters and there are some calm waters.  Abraham taking matters into his own hands to birth a son caused turbulance.  In fact, whenever Abraham felt threatened, he would make his wife lie about their relaitonship . . .creating turbulant waters.  His son Isaac to whom the seed of promise was passed on to may have had a calmer spirit about him, but unfortunately, he also created some turbulance of his own by following his Father's nature by embracing self-preservation when "he" found himself in threatening situations as well.  Lied about "his" relationship with his wife just as his father before him.

But then these two nations that were wrestling against each other in Rebecca's womb . . .there wasn't much waiting on the Lord with either of them, they quarreled in the womb.  Even as Esau came into this world first, Jacob still reached out of the womb and grabbed on to him . . . that got him the name Jacob and he lived his life in the same manner . . .his mother did what his grandfather had done.  God gave the promise to her that the younger would take the older's blessing and she took it upon herself to make sure that happened . . .creating more turbulance again for the floating leaf . . .the seed of the promise.  The promise that God proclaimed, did come to be, but I wonder how much better it would have been had she just let things go according to what God had planned, rather than come up with this complicated plot to steal something that God had already promised would come to be. 

Just as Abraham's plan backfired in his face and he had to send Ishmael away, so the same backfire took place with Rebecca when she saw the son she cheated desire to kill the son she treated.  God gives us a word and we begin to set about our lives of manipulation trying to accomplish something that God already said "he'd do for us".  Then we second guess whether or not it really was from God when things backfire on us.  That's the difference between the old covenant and the new.  The old is mans way of trying to take matters into his own hands to gain righteousness.  The new covenant is simply receiving that which has already been proclaimed.  If God said it, then let "Him" be the one that fulfills it.

I love these old testament stories because it illuminates the fact that IN SPITE OF US the seed of promise still continued it's path down the rivers of men right up to the cross where the river went from the Jordan (descending) to the river of life that flows out of our bellies . . .the same bellies that were once cursed to crawl upon the ground . . .the core of man married to earthiness.  But then Jesus became our groom and now instead of our belly beiing bound to the dust, which is the serpents meat .  . earthiness, flesh . .carnality .. .we now have a river of LIFE flowing out of us!!

No other religion can proclaim or manifest such a transformation as that which God has already done in us!!

[Molly]

Then, too, the seed, or the blessing if you will,  always passes through the younger son--Ephraim and Menasseh is another example of that.

Jacob really wanted that birthright.  It didn't mean that much to Esau [until he realized what he had lost] since he sold it for a bowl of pottage.

Sarah, too, wanted that baby of the promise.  The slave woman was just doing as she was told.

Joseph refused to compromise himself, and spent 15 years in jail waiting.

So we can see in a general sense, how the younger son is more the spiritual one, even though they weren't perfect by any means.


Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.
[Gen 32:28]

[Nathan]

Yeah, I also think it's the foundational platform for spiritual principles . . .everything is the opposite of what our reasoning thinks it should be.  By law, the oldest "should" receive the blessing.  But in the kingdom, the least is greatest, the first is last, it's all the opposite from what this realm has to offer.  Our natural eyes even have to have  . . .what is it that does it, the retna?  That takes what is around us and it turns it upside down so we see it right side up. 

Same with colors . . .the color you "think" you see is actually every other color 'but" the one you think you're seeing.  We've talked about that one before . . .unless it is "reflective" I think was the ruling on that.  But it's all pointing to the fact that what is of God is the opposite of what man "thinks" is of God.  Which is why I pound on not relying on our "minds" when it comes to trying to comprehend the things of God.

[Molly]

"everything is the opposite of what our reasoning thinks it should be"


He's full of surprises, for sure.


James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?


Jeremiah 8:9 The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?


But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[1 Cor 1:27]


That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
[2 cor 12:10]

[micah7:9]

Psa 6:3  My soul also is sore troubled: And thou, O Jehovah, how long?

[Cardinal]

I love these old testament stories because it illuminates the fact that IN SPITE OF US the seed of promise still continued it's path down the rivers of men right up to the cross where the river went from the Jordan (descending) to the river of life that flows out of our bellies . . .the same bellies that were once cursed to crawl upon the ground . . .the core of man married to earthiness.  But then Jesus became our groom and now instead of our belly beiing bound to the dust, which is the serpents meat .  . earthiness, flesh . .carnality .. .we now have a river of LIFE flowing out of us!! 

  Awesome word....

[shawn]

Could be money or acceptance from ones peers.  Another motivation is that people find enough reason (that is, God moves on their hearts and minds) to believe in God and the Scriptures, and they love God.  But they prepare for the worst (i.e., the doctrine of ET), and grit their teeth and try to devise ways to make it, if not palatable, acceptable to their wounded and confused (about the character of God) minds.  I would think most Christians who accept ET and take Scripture seriously are like this.

Pastors are in a hard spot, because they subscribe to doctrinal statements which include ET, even if it's an understated tenet.  What would happen to their jobs and their families if they came out of the closet and recognized the truth of universal reconciliation?

And yeah, it could also be that a veil is over their hearts.  One was over mine for years/decades.  I knew I'd have to come to grips with Hell, but never did until 6 months ago.

I think this is very level headed.  I think it's tempting to demonize those that teach and accept hellfire doctrine.  My spirit never accepted ET...but my mind was controlled by doctrine and what I believed was irrefutable Scriptural evidence of hellfire.  I too tried to water down hellfire, and was actually embarassed to share the gospel because of it.  How could I possibly answer peoples questions about God's love and hell?  I couldn't.  And I grew spiritually sick.  I no more wanted to believe ET than anyone else.  I just felt I had to give up the rest of the gospel if I gave up ET.  And, I believe that's where many stand who are believers.

[Nathan]

Could be money or acceptance from ones peers.  Another motivation is that people find enough reason (that is, God moves on their hearts and minds) to believe in God and the Scriptures, and they love God.  But they prepare for the worst (i.e., the doctrine of ET), and grit their teeth and try to devise ways to make it, if not palatable, acceptable to their wounded and confused (about the character of God) minds.  I would think most Christians who accept ET and take Scripture seriously are like this.

Pastors are in a hard spot, because they subscribe to doctrinal statements which include ET, even if it's an understated tenet.  What would happen to their jobs and their families if they came out of the closet and recognized the truth of universal reconciliation?

And yeah, it could also be that a veil is over their hearts.  One was over mine for years/decades.  I knew I'd have to come to grips with Hell, but never did until 6 months ago.

I think this is very level headed.  I think it's tempting to demonize those that teach and accept hellfire doctrine.  My spirit never accepted ET...but my mind was controlled by doctrine and what I believed was irrefutable Scriptural evidence of hellfire.  I too tried to water down hellfire, and was actually embarassed to share the gospel because of it.  How could I possibly answer peoples questions about God's love and hell?  I couldn't.  And I grew spiritually sick.  I no more wanted to believe ET than anyone else.  I just felt I had to give up the rest of the gospel if I gave up ET.  And, I believe that's where many stand who are believers.

 

[GodIsLove]

This just maybe my folly, but why do you suppose great preachers and evangelists such as D.L.Moody,  Charles Spurgen, Calvin, Johnathan Edwards, who surely read the Word of God, that spoke greatly of God's love, chose to preach a message to millions of how that God of love would carry such a vendetta, that was so hateful.
How is it they chose a message of fear rather than love to win, as they said, souls?
I know why today that message is preached, contend if you will, but it is for money.

Thanks and Peace. 

That's a really good question. I wonder the same thing too because those guys were more read than me and you. And many of them seemed to Love God and people.

Even a guy named Paul Washer I sometimes listen to is pretty strong about hell.... although I've never actually heard any preacher say that "hell" is a place a real physical pain. Have any of you guys?

[ded2daworld]

I heard it all the time in every Baptist church I was in. I heard it at a Miami mission for drunks. I've heard it at Assembly of God churches when I was investigating the tongues phenomena. I was also a trucker and every truckstop had sermons from local preachers for free on tapes and almost everyone of them talked of eternal physical, concious pain. BTW, I really used to like Paul Washer too and had both his books. In fact he may have been the last straw before I became UR because he was certainly preaching a different God than the one I loved for over 35 years.
Hey, "A different God" sounds like a good title for a UR book!

[eaglesway]

I heard it all the time in every Baptist church I was in. I heard it at a Miami mission for drunks. I've heard it at Assembly of God churches when I was investigating the tongues phenomena. I was also a trucker and every truckstop had sermons from local preachers for free on tapes and almost everyone of them talked of eternal physical, concious pain. BTW, I really used to like Paul Washer too and had both his books. In fact he may have been the last straw before I became UR because he was certainly preaching a different God than the one I loved for over 35 years.
Hey, "A different God" sounds like a good title for a UR book!

Sounds like a great title for your testimony about the journey you took to your persuasion of ultimate universal reconciliation, the salvation of all :o)

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Yeah your correct, its just that these men really read the Bible, a lot, and still came up with such fearful preaching of a God of Love.
Is just a mind boggler for me that they would zero in on such a vengeful teaching to "save" souls to a loving God. 

"8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

9 not of works, that no one may boast;

10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk."- Ephesians 2:8-10

"14 What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness [is] with God? let it not be!

15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'

16 so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:

17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'

18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.

19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'

20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?

21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?"- Romans 9:14-21

The verses in Roman recall that in Exodus God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't listen to Moses and God continually plagued Egypt.  Why?

"16 And yet for this I have caused thee to stand, so as to show thee My power, and for the sake of declaring My Name in all the earth"- Exodus 9:16

God can use all situations and all men to advance His Will.  Faith in God and the ability to declare Christ Jesus as the Lord and Savior of the world is a gift and comes from the Almighty.  Theologians, pastors, preachers, priests, bishops, and popes can read God's Word from cover to cover continually until they die and never understand it unless God gives them "ears to hear and eyes to see."