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Offline B_T

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God, who creates evil
« on: June 20, 2008, 11:37:37 AM »
Hello,

how do you understand the following verse:

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Offline claypot

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2008, 06:05:47 PM »
Hello,

how do you understand the following verse:

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God is taking responsibility for everything.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2008, 06:19:19 PM »
Hello,

how do you understand the following verse:

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


I see a couple of main things here.  First it is God taking responsibility for everything. Secondly I see a much greater God than I once thought of. 

As I started seeing the great love God has for everyone,then reading that God is inherently Love and God being in control of all, it is amazing to me how that shows that our Destiny lies in the Hands of the Living God and that there is no greater place to fall.




Offline studier

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2008, 06:20:32 PM »
As we spoke in our discussion in PM's, I hope that was helpful.

A system based on fear, sees the evil that God created from the perspective of a spirit of fear. God is not a man, therefore the evil God creates is not like the evil man commits.

This is difficult to imagine or understand, but all things in Creation are a result of God creating it to be that way. It is hard to understand why God created a very good creation and not a perfect creation; and why God's creation from the start was created with a flaw. God created creation and created it to be flawed. It won't make sense why God created creation to be flawed, if the end result is that creation will be endlessly tortured in the end, either.

Everything was created with a plan and purpose in mind, everything according to the will and desire of God. That means all things in this creation, was created ontologically very good. That included the knowledge of evil, the flaw, and the capability for mankind to experience and commit evil. God created everything for an end result that is not just very good, but perfect as He is perfect.

At present, we cannot see this because we see everything in part and looking through the mirror dimly. Though we shall fully know as we are fully known.

Craig

Offline Reverend G

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2008, 12:34:22 AM »
It is an interesting passage.  I guess it is correct, since He created everything.  I like the idea that He is willing to claim responsibility for it, shows He does not deny things.  That said, I always understood it to be more of Him "allowing" evil.  Or could it be that by allowing it, He in essence "created" it?  Now you are going to have me pondering this for a while.

autoimmune

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2008, 12:48:27 AM »
Depends on how you define evil, imo.

If evil is the absence of the Good, then I have no problem reconciling the fact that God created all things Good, but also says He created evil.

Evil is inherent in any Good thing as an unactivated potential; it is always potentially possible for the Good within the thing not to be expressed.

Since we are told God is Love, then the greatest Good is Love.  Any time we do not use a thing for the Good God intended it to be used for, we activate that evil.

God created the potential for evil; He does not, nor ever could activate it Himself because He is Love.  Man, however, is far from perfect and quite often activates the evil within all the good things God created.

If we want to rid the world of evil, then we should fill the "lack of Good" with waht is missing--Love.

ME


jabcat

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 02:54:18 AM »

This is difficult to imagine or understand, but all things in Creation are a result of God creating it to be that way. It is hard to understand why God created a very good creation and not a perfect creation; and why God's creation from the start was created with a flaw. God created creation and created it to be flawed. It won't make sense why God created creation to be flawed, if the end result is that creation will be endlessly tortured in the end, either.

Everything was created with a plan and purpose in mind, everything according to the will and desire of God. That means all things in this creation, was created ontologically very good. That included the knowledge of evil, the flaw, and the capability for mankind to experience and commit evil. God created everything for an end result that is not just very good, but perfect as He is perfect.

At present, we cannot see this because we see everything in part and looking through the mirror dimly. Though we shall fully know as we are fully known.

Craig

 :goodpost:.  IMO, God not only takes responsibility, He, as Craig says, did it for a perfect purpose and will bring it to a perfect end.  I can't fully understand it, but that doesn't mean what God says is not exactly true and exactly right, righteous, perfect.  I believe only God can and will eventually bring about "no evil", because He's in control and the present evil temporarily serves His eternal purpose.  God's love is still present in His creation and operation of evil, I believe it's just more than my finite mind can comprehend.  That's part of why He basically said to Job, "will you accuse me so you can justify yourself"?   And again, basically, "what do you have to say about creation to the Creator...did you have anything to do with it?"   :doh: And I like Job have to say, "uh, no".  :laugh2:.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 02:55:55 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 03:16:06 AM »
The KJV often speaks of judgment as evil, as in the case where God was about to come down hard on Israel and after Moses's intercession it says that God repented of the evil that He was going to bring on them.  Contextually, baring this in mind, the book of Isaiah was anticipating the Babylonian captivity of Israel.  So, among other possible interpretations, God was speaking of the evil that was in the works for His rebellious, stubbornly unrepentant nation of Israel.  This is also an interesting subjective verse to bring up in the light of the current deception that passes for sound thinking on Matthew 25:46:  if for any reason and at any time God has created evil, are we to understand that He must always create evil or forfeit being the Creator of Good?  And if that's the case, then what evils await us all on the New Earth?

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 12:52:51 AM »
Just sneaked in here today and saw this topic. One thing that came to my mind is that it doesn't say that Father creates good and evil but peace and 'evil'.

Here is what the hebrew words for good (tov) and evil (ra) originaly meant:

Tov: Good, Soft, Quiet, Gentle, Tender, Rippling (as a Mountain stream,) Kind, Mild, Shy, Humble, Meek, Retiring, Unobtrusive, Unassuming, Tender-hearted, Courteous, Chivalrous, Easily entreated, Employing economy of words.

Ra: Loud, Noisy, Breaking, Crashing (as Niagara in full flood,) Robust, Energetic, Flamboyant, Displaying, Demonstrative, Expressive, Forthright, Brilliant, Unreserved, Exhibiting, Flourishing, Verbose.

Note that none of the words for ra have any relation to moral evil/sin. (Which is missing the mark/or failing. Something we know Father never does.)

In this context I would suggest that the scripture ought to be translated:

I make peace, and I cause (hebr. bara) trouble. I Yahwe do all these things.

To translate this scripture as saying Father creates moral evil doesn't make sense to me, if we agree on it that this scripture says Father causes  the opposite of peace and not the opposite of Goodness.

Also the hebrew word for 'create'- bara- can mean to cause, to form, to make, yes even to seperate. (Which is interesting if one remembers that Father seperated the darkness from the light in the beginning.)

All the Creation days started with the evening. In other words whatever Father does He starts with the raw material that He speaks into exisence. All His works beginn in darkness because as soon as they come forth from Him they are seperate from Himself Who is pure Light, and in Whom there is no darkness at all.

In the beginning Father spoke into existence the raw material of creation and there was darkness and chaos. Than He spoke His Light into it and formed it and to the first day, seeing it was good.

The evil that Father's creatures cause is always the destruction of the good that Father formed.

So I can see both sides, but would agree with Martin that we need to see this also in the context of what it would mean that we are formed into Father's Image if we believe He is the Author of sin, evil and death. (Something I still refuse to believe even though I believe in Father's absolute soverignty.)

After all. Scripture tells us that the lust of the eyes and of the flesh, and the pride of life are not from the Father but from the world (cosmos) He created.

"Since God is Good, whatever He does, He does for man's sake. But whatever man does, he does for his own sake, both what is good and what is evil." Philokalia, vol. 1, chap. 121, St. Anthony the Great.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 03:41:53 AM by AbbasChild »
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline studier

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 04:48:57 AM »
You have your definitions incorrect. RA is moral and ethical evil. Sorry to disappoint you.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good [TOWB] and evil [RA].

Lamentations 3:37-38
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil [RA] and good [TOWB].

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil [RA] way, that I may repent of the evil [RA] which I am planning to do to them because of the evil [RAO] of their deeds.'

Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil [RA] which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil evil [RA] way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Amos 3:6
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When evil [RA] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace [SHALOWM], and create evil [RA]: I the LORD do all these [things].

Also see:
Jeremiah 36:3, Jeremiah 32:42, Jeremiah 11:11, Jeremiah 14:16, Jeremiah 18:11, Jeremiah 19:3, Jeremiah 19:15, Jeremiah 23:12, Jeremiah 26:13, Jeremiah 35:17, Jeremiah 36:31, Jeremiah 40:2, Jeremiah 42:10, Jeremiah 42:17, Jeremiah 44:2, Jeremiah 45:5, Jeremiah 49:37, Jeremiah 51:64, Ezekiel 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chronicles 34:24, 2 Chronicles 34:28, 1 Samuel 16:23, 1 Samuel 18:10, 1 Samuel 19:9, 1 Samuel 16:15, 1 Samuel 16:14, Micah 1:12, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Judges 9:23, 1 Kings 14:10, 2 Kings 21:12, Isaiah 31:2. (and these are the places where it directly states that evil is created, done, formed, made, setup, by God]

The most common rebuttle to this, is that it isn't actually meaning evil in the way we mean evil. Rather, it somehow actually means disaster, revenge, calamity, ill, etc. That is the reason I ensured to put Scriptures that demonstrate the same word for moral evil, such as the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the evil mankind does, is the 'evil' in the way we mean evil, and find out it is the exact same word for both man and God. That word is "RA"

Ready for it?

The Hebrew definition of Evil:
Ra
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
i) in general, of persons, of thoughts
ii) deeds, actions

2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)

3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)


I do not know where you got your definitions, but they do not line up to the context or usage of the word "RA" in Scripture.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 04:54:55 AM by SOtW »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 07:06:08 AM »


I have to agree that Evil is the proper translation of RA.  Any other word is really just watering down the truth to make it "Not as bad" .  Oh, God doesn't make evil because that would be wrong, but He can make calamity and thats  ok, give us a break please.   Don't mean to be personally abrasive to anyone, but there really isn't any difference if your trying to define the morality of a God.

From my perspective,  God is our Father and he has us on a much greater journey than us as earthly Fathers may desire for our children.

Even though many Adults believe they have matured, in perspective of scripture, we are just babes.   I wonder,  do we remember being disciplined by our Parents?  We can sift through the mistakes our Earthly Parents made and find the areas where we hated what they made us do, only to see later in life something that taught us to be better after we got through it?

How many parents have made their own children do something through the "I hate you's", the "Everyone else is doing it", the "You don't care about me"  and all the protesting they did to try to keep us from doing what they did not perceive as good.

Why would We as babes not quite understand how this life is God shaping all his children in that manner, but having the power to make it right in the end?






Offline Pierac

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 08:25:28 AM »
I have a topic on another forum on this very subject. Not much response though, people have a hard time with the KJV of Isaiah 45:7.

Let me add to Craigs post on the subject.


Latin Vulgate Isa 45:7  formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

Malum From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Malum in se (plural mala in se) is a Latin phrase meaning wrong or evil in itself. This concept is a part of the "value consensus model" explanation of the origins of the criminal law. The phrase is used to refer to conduct thought to be inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct. It is distinguished from malum prohibitum, which is wrong only because it is prohibited. For example, murder of human beings is universally agreed to be wrong by other human beings, regardless of whether a law exists or where the conduct occurs, and is thus recognizably malum in se. In contrast, consider driving laws. In the US, people drive on the right-hand side of the road. In the UK and other states of the Commonwealth, people drive on the left-hand side. This is an example of a malum prohibitum law because the act is not inherently bad, but is forbidden by policy, as set forth by the policy-makers of the jurisdiction. Malum prohibitum crimes are criminal not because they are inherently bad, but because the prohibited act is forbidden by the policy of the state. Crimes such as larceny, rape and murder are considered malum in se. This concept was used to develop the various common law crimes. [1]

LXX Isa 45:7 εγω  κατασκευασας  φως  και  ποιησας  σκοτος  ο  ποιων  ειρηνην  και  κτιζων κακα 2556 εγω  κυριος  ο  θεος  ο  ποιων  ταυτα  παντα

So we have the Greek word κακα 2556 in place of Ra.

Word Study
G2556

κακὸς
kakós; fem. kaké, neut. kakón, adj. Bad, worthless externally. Of a soldier, cowardly. In the NT evil, wicked, from the verb cházō or cházomai (n.f.), to give back, recede, retire, retreat in battle. One who is evil in himself and, as such, gets others in trouble.

(I) In a moral sense meaning wicked, vicious, bad in heart, conduct, and character (Mat_21:41; Mat_24:48; Phi_3:2; Rev_2:2, impostors). Of things (Mar_7:21, evil thoughts; Rom_13:3, evil works; 1Co_15:33, evil conversations; Col_3:5; Sept.: Pro_6:18; Pro_15:3). In the neut. tó kakón, and pl., tá kaká, evil, evil things, wickedness, fault, crime (Mat_27:23; Mar_15:14; Luk_23:22; Joh_18:23; Act_23:9; Rom_1:30; Rom_2:9; Rom_3:8; Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21; Rom_9:11; Rom_13:4; Rom_16:19; 1Co_10:6; 2Co_5:10; 2Co_13:7; 1Ti_6:10; Heb_5:14; Jam_1:13; 1Pe_3:12; 3Jo_1:11; Sept.: Pro_3:7).
(II) Actively causing evil, i.e., hurtful, harmful (Rom_14:20; Tit_1:12, "ravenous beasts" [a.t.]; Rev_16:2; Sept.: Pro_16:4; Amo_6:3). In the neut., to kakón, evil, i.e., cause or source of evil (Jam_3:8); evil done to anyone, harm, injury (Act_16:28; Act_28:5; Rom_12:17, Rom_12:21; Rom_13:10; 1Co_13:5; 1Th_5:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_3:11). In words, evil speaking (1Pe_3:10; Sept.: Mic_7:3). Pl., tá kaká, evils, i.e., troubles, afflictions (Luk_16:25; Act_9:13; 2Ti_4:14; Sept.: Gen_44:34; Gen_48:16; Isa_46:7; Jer_14:8).

The Greek word in no way suggest "trouble' or clamity. In fact, the Hebrew already have a word for "calamity!"

Offline Pierac

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 08:39:51 AM »
I pulled this off the other forum too..
The book of Job offers many clues into the understanding of evil. We all know the story so I will only cover specific details. First, let's look at Job, the man.


Job 1:1  There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

We are told up front that Job was blameless, upright, and turned away evil. Yet, Job experienced severe evil at the hand of Satan. Why? Why did God do this to him? Yes, it was God that was the cause.

Job 1:8  The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9  Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?

Who brought up the topic of Job? Satan or God? Yes, it was God. Since you already know the story, you know that Job was a pawn in a conversation between Satan and God. So did Job suffered evil to prove a point for God? Did this happen to Job so God could be correct in His assessment? What did Satan say?

Job 1:11  But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face." 

Job 1:12  And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Now why did God put Job in Satan's hands? And not use His own?

Jam 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

It was because God could not! As shown in James 1:13. God could not tempt Job to curse Him! But Satan could!

Job knew very well what he was experiencing was evil and not some calamity!

Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

We would all agree that God does not use evil without purpose! So what was the purpose here with Job? Are we to be like Job when he says:

Job 13:15  Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

So what was the reason? Why did Job, an upright man, suffer evil at the hand of Satan? Was it to only prove a point for God?

So what is the purpose of evil for the Christian?  For we surely experience it!

Eph 6:12  For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We would all agree that we wrestle against spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places! But where did these forces come from?

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.

I thought Satan created evil? Yet, Col 1:16 is telling us all thrones or dominions or authorities were created by God! Let's see how evil is used against Christians.


Rev 2:10  'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

We are tested by it!


2Co 12:7  So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.


CLV Ecc 1:13  I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

We are humbled by it!

Mat 5:44  "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Mat 18:21  Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"  22  Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Mat 5:39  "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40  "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

We are brought into obedience by it!

Heb 5:8  Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

Jesus suffered much evil from the hands of men!

With the help of Christ in us we can overcome it!

1Jo 5:4  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Rev 2:7  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Rev 2:11  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Evil is part of our training process! Without evil, we could not know good.  Evil is used through out our Bible, for both positive and what would appear negative purposes.

I think what the Bible tells us about Satan holds many clues to the concept of evil, and they do not hold to the views of orthodox Christianity. Why is this mysterious character of the Bible, whom we are taught is the creator of evil allowed so much control?

Paul

Offline Pierac

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 08:49:31 AM »
Well, back to Job! Yes, indeed! Job is a very particular book, a book that shakes the view of Satan to it's orthodox core!

What saith the scriptures:


Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.   7  The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

Can anyone tell me here , what just happened? Yes, the sons of God came to present them selves before the LORD GOD!

Now WHO came along among them?

Satan? The fallen angel which did battle with God Himself, and God who barely got by with only 1/3 of his own angles lost? Is this the very outcast that is sneaking in God's presents?

No indeed, This is no fallen angel who did battle with God! Just look at the conversation! 

Does God seem surprised to see Satan? No.

Does Satan seem out of place? No.

So what's going on? Satan appears as just another of one of God's creatures.  Just look again at how casual God speaks to Satan!


The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"

And look at the reply!

"From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

This is not a conversation from two spiritual beings who have had a great battle! Note too, God is always in power and control.

All through out the conversation about Job, Satan has to get permission from God to act! MAKE NOTE ! Nothing done by Satan is with out God's permission!


Now, let's jump forward in time. Jesus has died on the cross, and Satan is defeated! So why does he (Satan) still roam free?

Now just what is Satan doing?


Mar 4:14  "The sower sows the word. 15  "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

Hold the phones people, Satan does WHAT?  HE comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.  Them WHO? The children of God?  Now ask yourself, why does a loving God allow a defeated Satan to do such a thing? Is this what God's wants for his children?

Wait, there's more…

God allowed a cherished apostle to suffer at the hand of Satan!

2Co 12:7  Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

Even here as in Job, Satan is used by God to keep Paul from exalting himself.

1Th 2:18  For we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, more than once--and yet Satan hindered us.

Can the mighty power of Satan be stronger than the God of Paul?  No, but why is Satan allowed to act?

Now, if Satan can keep Paul from going where he wants, can Paul himself use Satan for his (Paul's)  own purpose? Yes, he can!

1Co 5:5  I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Let's put this in context, Paul is turning over an unrepentant sinner over to Satan to be destroyed! Now many would say OK so what! Just look at the reason!

so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul is using Satan as an aid for the salvation of another human being! Now, Paul is the one in control and not Satan who does only what he was created for!

So why is Satan who is a defeated foe of God, allowed to roam the earth and feed off the dust?

Gen 2:7  Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground

Gen 3:14  The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;

Satan did not create himself, and did not create evil! This much is clear! 


Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 08:57:10 AM »
Quote
So what was the reason? Why did Job, an upright man, suffer evil at the hand of Satan? Was it to only prove a point for God?

So what is the purpose of evil for the Christian?  For we surely experience it!



25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

 26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
--Romans 16





1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

 2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

 3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

 8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

--Ephesians 3




1 John 5:4
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.


1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 09:02:29 AM by Molly »

Offline studier

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 12:42:32 PM »
Good stuff Paul and Paul  :laughing7:

Offline Molly

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 03:44:58 PM »
The bottom line is that we cannot tell the difference between good and evil without Christ.  We are proving it right at this moment.  We have proven it throughout the history of the last 100 years.  We prove it every day.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


This is the condemnation.  By your own words you are condemned, Jesus says.


30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
--Matt 23



We too will fill up the measure of our fathers.   God puts before us, not good and evil, but life and death.  Those are the only two choices.  He makes it as easy as possible--is that choice leading to life or death?

As long as the world cannot tell the difference, person by person, we will be judged.


Those stiff-necked pharisees, like ourselves,  couldn't get it then, and can't get it now.  Our only hope is Christ.


No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.



--John Donne, Meditation 17, 1624




Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 03:46:36 PM by Molly »

Offline studier

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 08:54:15 PM »
Quote
The Greek word in no way suggest "trouble' or clamity. In fact, the Hebrew already have a word for "calamity!"


Exactly.

Ready for it?

The Hebrew definition of Calamity, Disaster:
'eyd
1) distress, burden, calamity
a) burden (of the righteous)
b) calamity (of nation)
c) disaster (of wicked)
d) day of calamity

Do we propose writers of Hebrew would confuse Ra for 'Eyd? That through their zeal, they would make a great mistake? Or could it be, and I submit most humbly, in fact the mistake of the modern 'contemporary' theologian, who cannot reconciled what sin and evil towards mankind, that mankind could have any good result? I believe there is no mistake, Scripture is clear that God did intend and create sin and evil to live in this creation. It is God who does these things and placed us in this habitation.

In fact, here is how God created sin without himself sinning.

"When the commandment came, sin came to life. [Romans 7:9]

Now recognize when sin came into being.

Genesis 2:15-17
The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

God created the tree of knowledge, God gave the commandment, God did all these things. So according to the Scriptures, the conclusion is firm and steadfast. The reality is, much of the reason we have such a disturbing and uncomfortable feeling concerning this, is because of the doctrines such we have accepted to fill the gap. Just because God created evil, does not mean He is ontologically evil. The problem of evil is mainly the problem of perception and false presupposition.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 08:56:13 PM by SOtW »

Offline Pierac

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 10:58:20 PM »
I pulled this post from the other forum.

Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
--Isaiah 45:7

This verse is critical for the discussion. The terms in Hebrew that are used for "and create evil" are וּבוֹרֵא רָע . Create here is the same word as used when God created the universe in Genesis 1. it does not mean 'dispatched' or something along those lines, as has been suggested here. And evil is "ra", whose meaning as 'bad' or 'evil' has been elucidated in the OP.

If we look at the context, this will all become clearer:

Isaiah 45, KJV

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The point that the prophet is making is that God is the only power. He is responsible for everything - even evil. The prophet is speaking against polytheism, including the view that God is responsible for good, and some other power is responsible for evil. This seems quite clear from the text.

The reason I'm sharing this is because the person who wrote it is Jewish, he is not a Christian Jew.  He usually stays at the forum because as he puts it... "I don't like it when Christians twist the Hebrew text to make it fit their doctrine." He has been helpful to me in testing some of my Hebraic concepts regarding the O.T.  As he usually offers Hebrew web links to back up his post.

Paul


Offline AbbasChild

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 10:59:22 PM »
You have your definitions incorrect. RA is moral and ethical evil. Sorry to disappoint you.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good [TOWB] and evil [RA].

Lamentations 3:37-38
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil [RA] and good [TOWB].

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil [RA] way, that I may Repenter of the evil [RA] which I am planning to do to them because of the evil [RAO] of their deeds.'

Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil [RA] which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil evil [RA] way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Amos 3:6
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When evil [RA] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace [SHALOWM], and create evil [RA]: I the LORD do all these [things].

Also see:
Jeremiah 36:3, Jeremiah 32:42, Jeremiah 11:11, Jeremiah 14:16, Jeremiah 18:11, Jeremiah 19:3, Jeremiah 19:15, Jeremiah 23:12, Jeremiah 26:13, Jeremiah 35:17, Jeremiah 36:31, Jeremiah 40:2, Jeremiah 42:10, Jeremiah 42:17, Jeremiah 44:2, Jeremiah 45:5, Jeremiah 49:37, Jeremiah 51:64, Ezekiel 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chronicles 34:24, 2 Chronicles 34:28, 1 Samuel 16:23, 1 Samuel 18:10, 1 Samuel 19:9, 1 Samuel 16:15, 1 Samuel 16:14, Micah 1:12, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Judges 9:23, 1 Kings 14:10, 2 Kings 21:12, Isaiah 31:2. (and these are the places where it directly states that evil is created, done, formed, made, setup, by God]

The most common rebuttle to this, is that it isn't actually meaning evil in the way we mean evil. Rather, it somehow actually means disaster, revenge, calamity, ill, etc. That is the reason I ensured to put Scriptures that demonstrate the same word for moral evil, such as the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the evil mankind does, is the 'evil' in the way we mean evil, and find out it is the exact same word for both man and God. That word is "RA"

Ready for it?

The Hebrew definition of Evil:
Ra
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
i) in general, of persons, of thoughts
ii) deeds, actions

2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)

3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)


I do not know where you got your definitions, but they do not line up to the context or usage of the word "RA" in Scripture.

I don't think that I got that wrong. Rather these words became a moral corronation after the fall. That's why the Amplified Bible for example also calles the tree of knowlede of good and evil, the tree of the kowledge of blessings and calamities/curses. (Reminds me of the law.)

The problem was not about the knowledge itself but that man ate it on his own termns, trying to be independend of his Creator and thus missing the mark of his existence, namely living by His life.

In itself the tree spoke about the gentle and the powerful side of Father, His power always governed by His love and gentlesness. But when man ate if on his selfish terms trying to be his own god (judge) he despised the gentleness of his Creator trying to grasp more and more power.

Thus ra became our definition of evil. The word is derived from a verb of similar sound (RAA) which, according to Gesenius means "to make a loud noise, or to break in pieces." Hence strictly RA means "a loud noise," or "a smashing sound."

The point was that Father wanted to teach man Himself about this realities.

In fact, the scriptue in Isiah can even be tranlated as:

"I bring forth light and seperate the darkness. I establish harmony and form chaos (into something good). I Yahwe do all these things."

That's how the post-apostolic writers understood it at least. (See for example  That God is Not the Cause of Evils by Basil the Great.)

This in no way means that Father is not in control over evil. To deny this one must deny huge pieces of scriputes and no one here ever denied this.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good [TOWB] and evil [RA].

Not that the tree of knowledge of it was grown not good and evil itself. And what this meant I already mentioned.

Lamentations 3:37-38
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil [RA] and good [TOWB].

First of all, this is a rethorical question, not a statement. And it falls under the same categorie as Job's statement about receiving good (blessings) and evil (calamities/curses) from Father's hands. When we look at Job's story we see that this is not literalism but rather an oriental expression. For we know that God is Love and Love can't even think evil.

Furhter James tells us that there is no shadow of turning with the Father of lights (speaking of stars and planets). An expression that is related to the fact that when the plantes turn the produce a shadow- they have a dark side. But this is not so with Him Who is Light and in Whom there is no darkness at all.

If this scripture would be literal that would imply our Father speaks double talk, something He wants to remove from us, His children. Just as He despises double-mindedness.

Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil [RA] which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil evil [RA] way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil [RA] way, that I may repent of the evil [RA] which I am planning to do to them because of the evil [RAO] of their deeds.'

This would be a good example of how one can translate ra as trouble. To use the term evil only confuses people. For it would imply that Father does evil (moral) to us so that we shouldn't do evil (moral) anymore (if taken in a literal sense.) However, even if one chooses to translate it this way, I think the meaning is obvious.

b]Amos 3:6[/b]
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When evil [RA] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?

The same thing here. For the evil that comes to the city is obviously war or even uproar.

What is the evil He does? Its His giving us over to our ways and desires until we are tired of being sick and tired and turn to Him.

It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

martincisneros

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2008, 01:10:02 AM »
A question

I'm not discounting anything that's thus far been said, neither am I discounting the lexicons that have been cited here with regards to Ra.  And I took the opportunity to look up many of the verses that have been presented thus far in this thread, and I agree that the Biblical usage of Ra is "evil" in every way that we'd understand evil today.  I just have personal curiosities about the fact that the word "Ra" is actually an Egyptian word and not a Hebrew word in it's origins.  This probably gets us over into that area where etymology must be taken cum grano salis, or with a grain of salt, because of "usage" being king of the words instead of where they came from.  I'm just curious if any of you think that the word when it comes to humans could include the idea of the Jews having wandered into paganism, while from the God-side of the usage of the word if any of you think that the word "Ra" could include any of the "evils" associated with the desert, because "Ra" was the Egyptian monotheistic sun diety  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra

Paganism was the constant trap of Old Testament Jews and many of the evils, in the form of judgments, that came upon Israel were in the form of droughts, or things related to the desert like scorpions that would sting like a really bad sun burn.  One of the final curses of Deuteronomy 28 on the Jews, that some say did happen with the 70AD judgment was that God promised that if they didn't obey Him that He'd send them right back into Egyptian bondage.  Do any of the Ras in Scripture, whether from God's side of things, or from man's side of things seem to allow for this etymology in any of your studies?  Either from the standpoint of any of the things associated with the Egyptian religion, or as a euphemism for a Jew's former bondage in Egypt?  Do any of these evils allow for it to simply be evils of the mind that could be likened to a pagan way of thinking?

This is an area where I've been nervous to look into it too far because of personal apprehensions of spending too much time studying anything associated with an ancient religion that's not Biblically based.  Also, I've honestly been really busy with studying other things, although I've had this question in the back of my mind for several years 'cause the etymology was just glaringly obvious, that it's a word that Jews picked up and adapted during their time in Egypt -- if the word itself doesn't go much further back than either Hebrew or Egyptian.  Always that question in the back of my mind as to whether Moses's usage of words in the earliest chapters of Genesis are inspired enough to include a few words from "the original language," or whether they were translations on the part of God into something utterable and understandable by Israel.  On the chance that someone else has looked into this, with regards to "Ra," I'm asking 'cause a few of you have come across to me as being much more educated than I am about some of these things.

Offline Molly

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2008, 01:33:35 AM »
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
--Isa 45


Light is 'formed,' but darkness and evil are 'created.'

What does this mean?

"formed"


H3335
יצר
yâtsar
yaw-tsar'
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution): -  X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make (-r), potter, purpose.


What form are we being molded into by God?  Aren't we being molded into 'light'  as a potter would shape clay?


Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. --Genesis 2



But what about evil and darkness?  God says he 'creates' those.  Does he create those by removing his light?


"create"

H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).


In this context is God creating evil and darkness by cutting down the form and reducing it to chaos, evil, darkness, and death---its primary and unformed components?  Second law of thermodynamics, form devolves to chaos.


Psalm 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.




"evil"

H7451
רעה    רע
ra‛  râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]



A pot that is broken to pieces can no longer carry light.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 01:47:34 AM by Molly »

jabcat

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2008, 05:49:30 AM »
An "educated opinion" was asked for.  This can only be considered one in terms of my having only a very slight idea and understanding of God's workings and His words.  IMO, even if Moses "understood the word(s) that way", or even if the Israelites perceived things from a certain perspective, I still have to trust that God is able to get across what He wants expressed to us...that even our limited vocabulary, understanding, and ability to express, still fall under the umbrella of "God working all according to the counsel of His will, and "all scripture is inspired..."  even 'ra'  :happygrin:.  God's blessing, James.

Offline Molly

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2008, 06:23:58 AM »
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil..

Another interesting thing here is that the sentence seems to be set up as opposites.

first there is light and darkness--those are easily opposites.

but next there is peace and evil.

Is evil the opposite of peace?

From my experience it is.

Again this theme that man will not choose God's rest, thereby bringing judgment down upon himself.



Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

16But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.

 17One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

 18And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.



"evil"

H7451
רעה    רע
ra‛  râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]



"peace"

H7965
שׁלם    שׁלום
shâlôm  shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: -  X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.


« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 06:42:11 AM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: God, who creates evil
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2008, 06:52:30 AM »
A question

 I just have personal curiosities about the fact that the word "Ra" is actually an Egyptian word and not a Hebrew word in it's origins.


Is the RA in Hebrew actually finding its origins from the Egyptians?  The name of the  Sun God seems to be more a pronunciation rather than a spelling.