Author Topic: THINK.  (Read 14810 times)

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Dante

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #100 on: February 18, 2008, 02:16:26 PM »
Thanks "Jabcat", "Hope", "whyiloveitaly" for all the kind words and thoughts.

Again, I must just thank God and all of you for making this place such a great area to post, and get thoughts and ideas out. This life can be hard, and this kind of interaction is an excellent way of to feel the reality of God's oneness. Which does so much for all of the individuals that post here.

God Loves ALL of his Creation!

Peace to you all brothers and sisters.

Offline studier

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2008, 08:50:55 PM »
If Universal Salvation were true,

Why did the prophets and apostles put their lives and their loved one's lives in jeapardy every day? :dontknow:

It's counter-intuitive to place your family, your children and your friends lives in harms way when all shall be saved in the end regardless of their actions and beliefs. :mshock:

THINK.

Are you serious?

Listen, you do not know what righteousness is if you let evil continue for the sake of saving your own life.

James 4:17
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

Don't just THINK, think before you speak.

Proverbs 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.


edward

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2008, 06:49:27 AM »
What rebuttal?    What scriptural answer?

Why would they endure all that the Saints endured for the truth?

WHY would they go through what Paul says they did?  Why did he?

Hebrews 11:36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Sawn asunder!  Remember what the rabbis say happened to Isaiah?They sawed him asunder.


[Isaiah] thereupon pronounced [the Divine] Name and was swallowed up by a cedar. The cedar, however, was brought and sawn asunder. When the saw reached his month he died. [And this was his penalty] for having said, 'And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips'. (Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 49b, Soncino Edition).


The rabbis claim that Isaiah was killed by having his own mouth sawed in half because he chastised the Israelites for their unclean lips. The rabbis have it that it was Isaiah who was wrong, not Israel.

Why would the martyers of God go through this if , all children of Light, and children of Darkness will recieve salvation?

There would be no point.  Absolutely NO point to suffer and allow their families to suffer so much if in the end, all will have clarity and complete understanding anyhow.

It would be like trying to make a difference in a dream, when in a few moments  you'll wake up anyhow and understand everything crystal clear as will the others characters in your dream, therefore it's only common sense to see the fallacy in such motivation as you propose.

Once again, I'm not necessarily asking you to think Seeker, for you would certainly oppose me if you could in the simple truth of  2 + 2 being 4 if you had the ability.


 



He Makes an interesting Point

I mean lets face it, they are all going to know the Love of God anyway, sure maybe not in this life if you dont tell them but after death so Why go to all that extent

Unless

1. Guy above with his traditional thoughts are correct
2. Both universalism and traditional is wrong
3. God is just messing with everyones heads down here to confuse people
4. The people told the message and just got dealed a bad deck of cards for doing what others didnt want or think was true
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 06:53:16 AM by edward »

edward

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2008, 06:58:18 AM »
Another thing is.. How then do you resolve vs like

"Text: Matthew 25:31-46

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his throne of glory; 32 and all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come! you who are the blessed ones of my Father, inherit the kingdom that was prepared for you from the beginning of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me."

37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and fed you, or thirsty and we gave you a drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and we invited you in, or naked and we clothed you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and we came to you?"

40 And answering, the King will say to them, "Truly I say to you, as much as you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

41 Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been kept in readiness for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me a drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I was naked and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me."


Seems pretty straight forward, no?

Offline studier

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #104 on: June 15, 2008, 08:56:17 PM »
Edward, have you known something to be true, something that would change everything? Because it seems from your answer, you have not and therefore do not understand what is involved in standing up for the truth.

Peacetroll creates a strawman, he says that we should not stand up for what is true, if what we believe is true will be revealed anyways. That is a SELF preservation, not the truth. That in fact is sin. Peacetroll makes universal salvation for all, a license to sin because he believes, "hey they are saved anyways, right?"

Here is the truth. Just because everyone in the end is reconciled in Christ Jesus, does not mean everyone is given the same reward. Remember the parable of the talent? Well some people will lose what they had because they lived in selfishness. Remember the Prodical son? Some will have spent all their inheritance and have nothing to show for their lives at the end, but they are still sons.

The truth is, there is no perpetual torment in hell, there is torment for those who live for self, because they would have lost everything, but whether in this life or in the resurrection, this torment only last a moment and are self-inflected pain. God's wrath will make the wicked nothing. He does not reward good for evil.

The reason people are killed for the truth, is they want to remain wicked and don't like to hear that.

edward

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2008, 02:29:03 AM »
Edward, have you known something to be true, something that would change everything? Because it seems from your answer, you have not and therefore do not understand what is involved in standing up for the truth.

Peacetroll creates a strawman, he says that we should not stand up for what is true, if what we believe is true will be revealed anyways. That is a SELF preservation, not the truth. That in fact is sin. Peacetroll makes universal salvation for all, a license to sin because he believes, "hey they are saved anyways, right?"

Here is the truth. Just because everyone in the end is reconciled in Christ Jesus, does not mean everyone is given the same reward. Remember the parable of the talent? Well some people will lose what they had because they lived in selfishness. Remember the Prodical son? Some will have spent all their inheritance and have nothing to show for their lives at the end, but they are still sons.

The truth is, there is no perpetual torment in hell, there is torment for those who live for self, because they would have lost everything, but whether in this life or in the resurrection, this torment only last a moment and are self-inflected pain. God's wrath will make the wicked nothing. He does not reward good for evil.

The reason people are killed for the truth, is they want to remain wicked and don't like to hear that.

How do you know its true for everyone and not just made up through man trying to understand existence

Can you honestly be sure you are right, I think not

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2008, 02:40:36 AM »
How do you know its true for everyone and not just made up through man trying to understand existence

Can you honestly be sure you are right, I think not


What do you believe at this point and time Edward?

autoimmune

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2008, 07:22:37 AM »
Forgiving one's enemies is what the Son's and daughters of God do.

Why do you think Jesus gave us the power to be called the children of God, Peacetroll?  For what purpose are we called and others not?

If while on the UR side of the fence, you never considered the question, then that's perhaps that's why you left for the other side? 

Like you I seek to see if UR works with all scripture.  If it's the truth, I want to know. If not, so be it, I will bend to grace.  So far, any question I have asked concerning the logical implications of UR have been answered by scripture through the leading of the Holy Spirit.  I had a lot of assumptions to identify and get past along the way, but that is what enables us to re-ask the questions and understand scripture from a different perspective.  So far, I have yet to find anything that makes me believe universal restoration of all things is not God's plan for mankind.

At anyrate, if everyone's going to be saved, I just don't see much point in proselytizing myself. 

Again, this begs a similar question.  Why do you proselytize?  What is the goal?  Is it possible the goal, as you understand and as it has been taught for centuries, is based on an incorrect assumption that is contradicted by other scripture?

If your goal is incorrect because it is formed out of an incorrect asumption about the Great Commission based on a belief in eternal hell and the need to save others from hell, then it may also be possble that this is why you can see no motivation for those who believe in UR to lay down their lives for others simply because Christ said this is what we must do if we wish to follow Him on that narrow, rocky path.

but if all men are not by defacto saved, it seems to be a much bigger motivation to preach that their is Salvation in Christ to those who don't believe in him.[/b]

I don't see how.  Are you saying fear of punishment is a greater motivator than Love of God? I doubt any believer ever suffered martyrdom out of fear of punishment.  Those are the very ones who became lapsi and sprinkled incense to Caesar because of their fear which showed their Love was not yet perfected.

Mary Ellen

Offline studier

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Re: THINK.
« Reply #108 on: June 16, 2008, 04:14:24 PM »
Quote from: edward
How do you know its true for everyone and not just made up through man trying to understand existence

Can you honestly be sure you are right, I think not

Then don't use fallacy to support what you think, otherwise what you think is in error.