willieH: Hi AuggyBD...
(quick note, I use CAPS for emphasis, not shouting!
Forgive me as in my post it should have been a question...
Did God look down the tunnel of time and see you were going to love him, therfore he predestined you?
This is how I observe this...
TIME is at all "times" before Him... It IS
manifest in totality before Him, subject to HIM, not the other way around... which would be, ...HIM perceived to be, subject to the manifestation of TIME...
Because He KNOWS me in my totality (concerning TIME) from my End to my Beginning (Is 46:10-11)
...and my actions are under His control, not mine... I see that He because of this, predestines my End to follow in its order, my Beginning, as He has declared it to BE... (hope that doesn't sound confusing!
Let me just clarify the point.
Most arminain/calmenian do not understand the true arm. position. They believe God hardened pharoas heart because he looked down the tunnel of time and saw that pharoa would not let them go. This is not classic Arm'ism.
To me this is utter foolishness, and makes GOD totally reactive to what MAN does, rather that the other way around... It shows MAN as dictating the actions of GOD, by his flaw ridden decisions, and sets GOD to be about forumulating a plan around those mishaps... please... This kind of thinking, is as short sighted as it could possibly be...
Thoroughly exemplifying the "cart before the horse"... GOD
hardened Pharaoh's heart... HE
does the hardening (Rom 9:18)
...it IS WRITTEN that Pharaohs heart was hardened (Ex 7:3)
... and so Pharaoh's heart, just like CAIN before him, was following the ETERNAL script that IS WRITTEN
in the ETERNAL WORD
So to address those who think such (which is most arm subscribers) I present the case that God does not look down the tunnel of time to see what a good guy you would be. THIS IS HERESY, in my opinion.
This diminshes pauls point that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US.
In their position it renders...
While we were yet sinners, God knew we would be great people, and thus he died for us.
This is SO CLOSE to calvinism it makes me ill. So did Jesus die for those who foresaw would not love him?
My point being, The scriptures are painting a picture for us that God KNEW (foreknew) that we ALL would hate him W/O his intervention. It has NOTHING to do with him forseeing a group of good people who he would bless.
I really think you and I are on the same page brother Augg...
I agree with this... He is working ALL THINGS together, after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... (Eph 1:11)
which means that if He is doing so... our "will" has nothing to do with how things are manifesting...
Rather, ...our "wills" are manifesting what HIS WILL has noted they shall...
Let me give an example...
CAIN slew ABEL... this fact, IS WRITTEN
in the book of Genesis which is (a portion of) the WORD of GOD
The Scripture cannot be broken, (John 10:35)
so in order for this to BE... CAIN, though he exercised his "will" and anger, was only doing what IS WRITTEN, for GOD's WORD
does NOT CHANGE (Heb 13:8)
... nor does GOD's WORD
ANYTHING other than what it ALWAYS
In other words, CAIN could not have avoided killing ABEL... for it IS WRITTEN
that He did so, so it must needs be done, as it IS WRITTEN
That a man named MOSES wrote it down, did NOT bring it into BEING... the fact of CAIN killing his brother, is ETERNAL information...GOD's WORD
is not in need of TIME, nor notation by MAN in order to BE...
It ALWAYS ...IS
... what it ...IS
and to place the tail on the donkey, GOD BLESSES THE WICKED.
It's abstract, It's backwards, It's AGAINST humanism's view of justice...IT'S GRACE!
I really like your wording bro... It is quite entertaining, while it promptly gets right to its point!
Most of Christianity, wishes to separate EVIL from GOD, and vehemently preaches that GOD cannot even BE in the presence of EVIL... yet at the same time tries to agree that GOD created ALL THINGS...
now as for Molonism,
I'm not totally learned on it and I've been doing some basic reading but it's been a while.
Some cat named Molina thought up the idea that God has different knowledges which he knows all facts. He knows all possible worlds and there outcomes of all variations.
Thus God knows the best possible world where the best outcome of salvation occurs without infringing on free will.
I don't recall when I have heard something more CONTRIVED than this... This guy is trying to BRAIN himself to death with possibilities, and misses the entire POINT of GOD's UNCHANGING BEING...
Placing GOD in this Sci-Fi setting, which has Him picking and choosing from all the available possibilities, instead of DETERMINING what IS... to BE according to HIS settled and unchanging way...
Btw... no necessity to "infringe" on something which does not exist... (free will)
I'm not terribly learned on it and I do want to learn more on it.
The only reason I think it might be good to learn more of it (molina's theory), is to gain better recognition of its obvious defects, ...in detail...
However, there point seems destroyed in that it does not answer the argument Talbott makes in IELG.
1) God wants to save all men
2) God Can save all men
3) Most people end up damned and tortured forever in Hell.
The molonist (like the arm.) denies number 2 due to free will.
The calv. denies 1 (God only wants to save the elect).
The U denies no. 3 (hell is not forever, or hell is done away with).
(1) This is the stated WILL of GOD...
(2) If He is ALMIGHTY, then saving ALL men, has to be found within that "might"
(3) Foolishness is found in the observation of a Creator which "creates" to "DESTROY"...
The molonist incorrectly
denies #2 due to something that does not even exist, nor is a found to be a Biblical teaching... (free will)
The calvinist incorrectly
denies #1, by making 5 Scriptures, ...a false witness: (Acts 10:34 / Rom 2:11 / Gal 2:6 / Eph 6:9 / Job 34:19 + John 3:16 / Luke 19:10 and at least 20 others!)
The universalist correctly
denies #3 because it is a non-existant, man created entity...
This will help you.
Thanks for link bro... I need a good laugh...
I think Gregory Mcdonald handled it quite well that the Molonist must deny no. 2 due to he CANNOT create a world in which free will exists and he saves all men.
GOD never created a world that contains FREE WILL... so the arguement against such is moot...
The only WILL which is FREE
is that of YHVH
... for the TRUTH
is the MAKER (creator) of FREEDOM (John 8:32)
said "I am the way, the TRUTH
, and the life...
His life was in CONTINUAL submission to the WILL of YHVH
... and therefore FREE
Man's [natural] "WILL" is that which is IN BONDAGE to itself... by NOT being in SUBMISSION to YHVH
... which is to BE, ...FREE!