God hates the wicked

[auggybendoggy]

Ok I'm on Tweb and this issue is coming up more and more both here and on T-web.

I cringe at the reasonins behind the ET believers that struggle with "God hates the wicked".
I find it astonishing that (especially the arm. point of view) people believe God truly hates the wicked.
As if God wants us to be perfect like him
(You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.)Then he is very different from the perfect christian who loves his enemies.

How is it you ET believers believe God hates his enemies?  Do you think you are loved by God but your homosexual neighbor is hated by God?  Do you think are you a better reprobate then another?  Do you think you are special.  If you do then I need to share with you...YOU ARE ARROGANT and that my friend is the sin of the pharisees.  The yeast (hypocrasy) is only the fruit of the deeper sin PRIDE which in turn causes us to think God loves us for our good natures and good deeds.  We think we are blessed becasue we keep his word.
WE'RE ALL CORRUPT!

God did look down the tunnel of time and see you were going to love him so he predestined you to love him.

For it does not depend on mans efforts or his DESIRES. 

Give up your argument that God found something good in you and REALIZE that God FOUND NOTHING GOOD IN YOU and HE IS YOUR LIFE, HE IS YOUR RIGHTEOUSSNESS.

My heart and my life is DESPERATE for this message to go out to the whole world.

Can any ET believers take on this position?  Calvinists?  Arminians?  Molonists? 

Sincerely and in love,

Auggy

[willieH]

willieH: Hi AuggyBD...  to the TENT!

Ok I'm on Tweb and this issue is coming up more and more both here and on T-web.

I cringe at the reasonins behind the ET believers that struggle with "God hates the wicked".
I find it astonishing that (especially the arm. point of view) people believe God truly hates the wicked.
As if God wants us to be perfect like him
(You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.)Then he is very different from the perfect christian who loves his enemies.

How is it you ET believers believe God hates his enemies?  Do you think you are loved by God but your homosexual neighbor is hated by God?  Do you think are you a better reprobate then another?  Do you think you are special.  If you do then I need to share with you...YOU ARE ARROGANT and that my friend is the sin of the pharisees.  The yeast (hypocrasy) is only the fruit of the deeper sin PRIDE which in turn causes us to think God loves us for our good natures and good deeds.  We think we are blessed becasue we keep his word.
WE'RE ALL CORRUPT!

God did look down the tunnel of time and see you were going to love him so he predestined you to love him.

For it does not depend on mans efforts or his DESIRES. 

Give up your argument that God found something good in you and REALIZE that God FOUND NOTHING GOOD IN YOU and HE IS YOUR LIFE, HE IS YOUR RIGHTEOUSSNESS.

My heart and my life is DESPERATE for this message to go out to the whole world.

Can any ET believers take on this position?  Calvinists?  Arminians?  Molonists? 

Sincerely and in love,

Auggy

Good commentary stuff new friend!    Especially in blue...

I am familiar with Arminians and Calvinist Auggy, but could you define what a "MOLONIST" is for me? 

pEACe...
...willieH 

[auggybendoggy]

Willie,
Forgive me as in my post it should have been a question...
Did God look down the tunnel of time and see you were going to love him, therfore he predestined you?

Let me just clarify the point.

Most arminain/calmenian do not understand the true arm. position.  They believe God hardened pharoas heart because he looked down the tunnel of time and saw that pharoa would not let them go.  This is not classic Arm'ism. 

So to address those who think such (which is most arm subscribers) I present the case that God does not look down the tunnel of time to see what a good guy you would be.  THIS IS HERESY, in my opinion.
This diminshes pauls point that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US. 
In their position it renders...
While we were yet sinners, God knew we would be great people, and thus he died for us.
This is SO CLOSE to calvinism it makes me ill.  So did Jesus die for those who foresaw would not love him?

My point being, The scriptures are painting a picture for us that God KNEW (foreknew) that we ALL would hate him W/O his intervention.  It has NOTHING to do with him forseeing a group of good people who he would bless.

and to place the tail on the donkey, GOD BLESSES THE WICKED.

It's abstract, It's backwards, It's AGAINST humanism's view of justice...IT'S GRACE!

now as for Molonism,
I'm not totally learned on it and I've been doing some basic reading but it's been a while.

Some cat named Molina thought up the idea that God has different knowledges which he knows all facts.  He knows all possible worlds and there outcomes of all variations.
Thus God knows the best possible world where the best outcome of salvation occurs without infringing on free will. 

I'm not terribly learned on it and I do want to learn more on it.

However, there point seems destroyed in that it does not answer the argument Talbott makes in IELG.
1) God wants to save all men
2) God Can save all men
3) Most people end up damned and tortured forever in Hell.

The molonist (like the arm.) denies number 2 due to free will. 
The calv. denies 1 (God only wants to save the elect).
The U denies no. 3 (hell is not forever, or hell is done away with).

http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/Molinism/

This will help you. 

I think Gregory Mcdonald handled it quite well that the Molonist must deny no. 2 due to he CANNOT create a world in which free will exists and he saves all men.

Aug

[willieH]

willieH: Hi AuggyBD...

(quick note, I use CAPS for emphasis, not shouting!  )

Willie,
Forgive me as in my post it should have been a question...
Did God look down the tunnel of time and see you were going to love him, therfore he predestined you?

This is how I observe this...

TIME is at all "times" before Him... It IS manifest in totality before Him, subject to HIM, not the other way around... which would be, ...HIM perceived to be, subject to the manifestation of TIME...

Because He KNOWS me in my totality (concerning TIME) from my End to my Beginning (Is 46:10-11)  ...and my actions are under His control, not mine... I see that He because of this, predestines my End to follow in its order, my Beginning, as He has declared it to BE... (hope that doesn't sound confusing!  )

Let me just clarify the point.

Most arminain/calmenian do not understand the true arm. position.  They believe God hardened pharoas heart because he looked down the tunnel of time and saw that pharoa would not let them go.  This is not classic Arm'ism.

To me this is utter foolishness, and makes GOD totally reactive to what MAN does, rather that the other way around... It shows MAN as dictating the actions of GOD, by his flaw ridden decisions, and sets GOD to be about forumulating a plan around those mishaps... please...  This kind of thinking, is as short sighted as it could possibly be...

Thoroughly exemplifying the "cart before the horse"... 

GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart... HE does the hardening (Rom 9:18)  ...it IS WRITTEN that Pharaohs heart was hardened (Ex 7:3)... and so Pharaoh's heart, just like CAIN before him, was following the ETERNAL script that IS WRITTEN in the ETERNAL WORD... 

So to address those who think such (which is most arm subscribers) I present the case that God does not look down the tunnel of time to see what a good guy you would be.  THIS IS HERESY, in my opinion.
This diminshes pauls point that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US. 
In their position it renders...
While we were yet sinners, God knew we would be great people, and thus he died for us.
This is SO CLOSE to calvinism it makes me ill.  So did Jesus die for those who foresaw would not love him?

My point being, The scriptures are painting a picture for us that God KNEW (foreknew) that we ALL would hate him W/O his intervention.  It has NOTHING to do with him forseeing a group of good people who he would bless.

I really think you and I are on the same page brother Augg... 

I agree with this... He is working ALL THINGS together, after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... (Eph 1:11) which means that if He is doing so... our "will" has nothing to do with how things are manifesting... 

Rather, ...our "wills" are manifesting what HIS WILL has noted they shall...

Let me give an example...

CAIN slew ABEL... this fact, IS WRITTEN in the book of Genesis which is (a portion of) the WORD of GOD... 

The Scripture cannot be broken, (John 10:35) so in order for this to BE...  CAIN, though he exercised his "will" and anger, was only doing what IS WRITTEN, for GOD's WORD does NOT CHANGE (Heb 13:8)... nor does GOD's WORD ever become ANYTHING other than what it ALWAYS, ...IS...

In other words, CAIN could not have avoided killing ABEL... for it IS WRITTEN that He did so, so it must needs be done, as it IS WRITTEN... 

That a man named MOSES wrote it down, did NOT bring it into BEING... the fact of CAIN killing his brother, is ETERNAL information...

GOD's WORD is not in need of TIME, nor notation by MAN in order to BE...    It ALWAYS ...IS... what it ...IS...

and to place the tail on the donkey, GOD BLESSES THE WICKED.
It's abstract, It's backwards, It's AGAINST humanism's view of justice...IT'S GRACE!

   I really like your wording bro... It is quite entertaining, while it promptly  gets right to its point!    

Most of Christianity, wishes to separate EVIL from GOD, and vehemently preaches that GOD cannot even BE in the presence of EVIL... yet at the same time tries to agree that GOD created ALL THINGS... 

now as for Molonism,
I'm not totally learned on it and I've been doing some basic reading but it's been a while.

Some cat named Molina thought up the idea that God has different knowledges which he knows all facts.  He knows all possible worlds and there outcomes of all variations.
Thus God knows the best possible world where the best outcome of salvation occurs without infringing on free will.

I don't recall when I have heard something more CONTRIVED than this... This guy is trying to BRAIN himself to death with possibilities, and misses the entire POINT of GOD's UNCHANGING BEING...

Placing GOD in this Sci-Fi setting, which has Him picking and choosing from all the available possibilities, instead of DETERMINING what IS... to BE according to HIS settled and unchanging way...

Btw... no necessity to "infringe" on something which does not exist... (free will) 

I'm not terribly learned on it and I do want to learn more on it.

 

  The only reason I think it might be good to learn more of it (molina's theory), is to gain better recognition of its obvious defects, ...in detail...

However, there point seems destroyed in that it does not answer the argument Talbott makes in IELG.
1) God wants to save all men
2) God Can save all men
3) Most people end up damned and tortured forever in Hell.

The molonist (like the arm.) denies number 2 due to free will. 
The calv. denies 1 (God only wants to save the elect).
The U denies no. 3 (hell is not forever, or hell is done away with).

(1)  This is the stated WILL of GOD...
(2)  If He is ALMIGHTY, then saving ALL men, has to be found within that "might"
(3)  Foolishness is found in the observation of a Creator which "creates" to "DESTROY"... 

The molonist incorrectly denies #2 due to something that does not even exist, nor is a found to be a Biblical teaching... (free will)
The calvinist incorrectly denies #1, by making 5 Scriptures, ...a false witness: (Acts 10:34 / Rom 2:11 / Gal 2:6 / Eph 6:9 / Job 34:19 + John 3:16 / Luke 19:10 and at least 20 others!)
The universalist correctly denies #3 because it is a non-existant, man created entity...

http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/Molinism/

This will help you.

Thanks for link bro... I need a good laugh...   

I think Gregory Mcdonald handled it quite well that the Molonist must deny no. 2 due to he CANNOT create a world in which free will exists and he saves all men.

Aug

GOD never created a world that contains FREE WILL... so the arguement against such is moot...

The only WILL which is FREE is that of YHVH... for the TRUTH is the MAKER (creator) of FREEDOM (John 8:32) ...JESUS said "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life...

His life was in CONTINUAL submission to the WILL of YHVH... and therefore FREE...

Man's [natural] "WILL" is that which is IN BONDAGE to itself... by NOT being in SUBMISSION to YHVH... which is to BE, ...FREE!


pEACe...
...willieH 

[auggybendoggy]

Willie,
I use caps also to emphasize not shout :)

We are close in our understanding.  I am not set out against free will but I am when we believe free will is the one thing that keeps God from getting what he wants. 

If you d/l talbotts papers you'll see he fights quite a bit of determinism in order to sustain a God who wants us to learn from him w/o being pure software.  I agree that God does not make the man rape the woman, or the moletor molest the child.  Here is where I believe free will is manifested.  But when mankind does good he is doing by God's ability not our own. 

Pharoa is the one that fly's in my own arguments face and I know that.  God did harden his heart and so that he would not obey.  HOWEVER when this occurs it is for his own good, that God might have mercy on him.

I do not understand how people argue around our position (though we have some differences) we agree on the GRACE, SOV, LOVE, POWER and WILL of God.

I'm gearing up for a bible study here in southern california and I'm excited.

My wife and father in law (very learned man) are on board.  So now we've got to figure out what to do.
My wife does not want strangers in the house because she sees how many people get killed by such events so she is scared.  I want to do it but I want to respect her as well.  I'm praying God will provide a place we can hold a study.

Aug

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brother A...

Willie,
I use caps also to emphasize not shout :)

We are close in our understanding.  I am not set out against free will but I am when we believe free will is the one thing that keeps God from getting what he wants. 

As I observe it, to think man even effects the WILL of GOD, is akin to thinking a clay pot made by Me, affects my "will"...  causing me to do or, ...not do something... 

If you d/l talbotts papers you'll see he fights quite a bit of determinism in order to sustain a God who wants us to learn from him w/o being pure software.  I agree that God does not make the man rape the woman, or the moletor molest the child.  Here is where I believe free will is manifested.  But when mankind does good he is doing by God's ability not our own.

 

I endeavor for the most part to IGNORE the philosphies of men... If the principle of "FREE WILL" is UNBIBLICAL (which it is)... then to pose it as a possible BIBLICAL scenario is INVALID...

Leaving such as Molina, to their own (false and unbased) contrivings which are set outside the Scriptures and therefore find themselves as MEN's words and not GOD's...

The WORD itself notes that GOD DECLARED ("declarations" are made with WORDS) the END from the Beginning... which means that HIS WORDS which are ETERNAL and UNCHANGING, outlined (before its existence) THAT(human history), ...which WAS NOT... (Is 46:10-11)

ALL of human history (containing ALL acts of Good AND Evil), "WAS NOT"...

Just because we  as finite beings, ...find DISTASTE in the observation and participations of the manifestation of EVIL, does not exempt GOD from (1) its presence (2) manifestation (3) parameters, in its EXISTENCE in Creation, ...to the detail.

(1) YHVH Himself not only stands by observing, but actually does nothing, to prevent or alter the infinite manifestations of both GOOD and EVIL within time... 

(2) Though YHVH is knowing BEFOREHAND the results of the (sometimes GLORIOUSLY GOOD, and sometimes HIDEOUSLY EVIL) details in which the events of the History of Humanity shall unfold, ...He brings ALL the participants forth together to be present for the various "events" both IN TIME ...AND... LOCATION, 

(3) And finally, HE has designed ALL the parameters (basic description and detail) of what IS EVIL, and what IS GOOD... that they BOTH may be FULLY DISPLAYED before ALL humanity within this experiential existence we share in TIME... 

Pharoah is the one that fly's in my own arguments face and I know that.  God did harden his heart and so that he would not obey.  HOWEVER when this occurs it is for his own good, that God might have mercy on him.

It is that way for ALL brother Augg... (Rom 3:23 / Rom 11:32)

In Romans 9, Paul outlines that ALL things are subject to the same GOD, to do as HE has ordained... noting that Jacob & Esau's lives were noted, before EITHER had (taken a breath) to do with GOOD ...OR... EVIL... (Rom 9:11-12)

He goes on to say that NO MAN has anything to do with HARDENING or MERCY... and that BOTH are according to YHVH (Rom 9:16) ...and that it is the destiny of each lump (MAN) to be 2 vessels, one of Dishonor (FLESH), and the other of Honor (SPIRIT)... ALL to the GLORY of the Father...

This is NOT about us Augg... it is ABOUT our FATHER... as we read the parable of the Prodigal, ...it is NOT about the LOST son, nor about the FAITHFUL one, it is about the GLORIOUS ...LOVE... of the FATHER of BOTH! ... 

I do not understand how people argue around our position (though we have some differences) we agree on the GRACE, SOV, LOVE, POWER and WILL of God.

If we, in submission to GOD, find His LOVE as the basic premise for ALL THINGS (which it IS), then LOVE is the destiny of ALL THINGS... good or evil...

Evil only serves to exalt GOOD in the end... I am suffering with a cancer problem, and believe me dear brother... it only serves (in a discomfortable and painful way) to remind me how BEAUTIFUL is the STATE of HEALTH... and how it must be TREASURED and how GRATEFUL we must be to HAVE that HEALTH...

I'm gearing up for a bible study here in southern california and I'm excited.

My wife and father in law (very learned man) are on board.  So now we've got to figure out what to do.
My wife does not want strangers in the house because she sees how many people get killed by such events so she is scared.  I want to do it but I want to respect her as well.  I'm praying God will provide a place we can hold a study.

Aug

BTW... I was originally from Los Angeles... now living in Spokane, Washington... 

God has the study marked in time to be as it will be... Your heart is to SEEK, and your heart shall FIND that which YHVH has noted you shall find...  I wish you much SPIRITUAL blessing to fill this study, ...in the which GOD shall avail what He has decided for your group... 

pEACe...
...willieH 

[auggybendoggy]

Will,
I appreciate your dialouge and to some degrees I agree.  However I believe scripture is about the son in a secondary sense; Christ being primary.  Our KNOWING God loves us is not in some sentence that God found us to be good but that the Son of man was good.  It is he "The Son" who God loves and therfore all of manking is reconciled ONLY through him.

I still find no argument that God causes sin.  God simply does not tempt anyone.  God does not author the sin of the rapist or the molestor.  God authors the salvation of such men and ANY free will evil act which they make he trumps with his perfection.
I don't find free will so "unbiblical" but I do when we think we do good by it.  Our free will manifests evil.  Our desires are corrupt.
It takes him to tranform us and THEN we change. 

Not trying to argue with you but I always believe we should discuss our ideas with each other w/o anger and hope that we might help sharpen each other.  I'm not saying your wrong, but I am saying at this time I'm favoring the idea that mans free will always gets him in trouble.  God's determinisn always saves man from his evil desires.

With sincerety,

God Bless bro,

Auggy

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother A... 

Will,
I appreciate your dialouge and to some degrees I agree.  However I believe scripture is about the son in a secondary sense; Christ being primary.  Our KNOWING God loves us is not in some sentence that God found us to be good but that the Son of man was good.  It is he "The Son" who God loves and therfore all of mankind is reconciled ONLY through him.

CHRIST is the HEAD of HIS BODY... the HEAD is still a MEMBER of the BODY... No member is other than the body... And ALL members are necessary to the function of the body, and ALL are SERVANTS to the WILL of the HEAD...

Just using your own body as a reference point brother A... do the members of your body DO what your HEAD decides they will do... or do they decide for themselves?

I still find no argument that God causes sin.  God simply does not tempt anyone.  God does not author the sin of the rapist or the molestor.

(1)  God does not tempt, but GOD creates men who tempt men one another, and the means by which they tempt... 

(2)  God does not "commit" sin, but HE decided what, by definition, it would BE... and created not only the premise itself, but those who enact it by the NATURE which HE imposes within them...

(3)  The rapist is created BY GOD, and is placed in the ERA and LOCATION of the victim BY GOD, and GOD foreknowing that these things will take place, still places both in same TIME and PROXIMITY, and then stands by not only abstaining from intervention, but sustaining the lives of both as the deed is enacted... 

God authors the salvation of such men and ANY free will evil act which they make he trumps with his perfection.
I don't find free will so "unbiblical" but I do when we think we do good by it.

Our free will manifests evil.  Our desires are corrupt.
It takes him to tranform us and THEN we change.

Actually (no offense bro), but this is a contrary statement... How can our WILL be considered "FREE" when it manifests ...BONDAGE = Evil/Sin?  If our "desires" are CORRUPT, then how can the "will" be found as FREE?   

Seems to me that in stating that our desires are BOUND in CORRUPTION, that they are hardly "FREE"... 

"FREE WILL" is the concept of a mind in BONDAGE... it does not perceive itself as in BONDAGE, but "free" to do other than the command of GOD... which in itself is BONDAGE... 

As JESUS Himself said: "you shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall MAKE YOU, ...FREE" 

TRUTH is the creator of FREEDOM... and when TRUTH is incorporated, that which is in BONDAGE is MADE (created as) FREE... 

Not trying to argue with you but I always believe we should discuss our ideas with each other w/o anger and hope that we might help sharpen each other.  I'm not saying your wrong, but I am saying at this time I'm favoring the idea that mans free will always gets him in trouble.  God's determinisn always saves man from his evil desires.

With sincerety,

God Bless bro,

Auggy

I agree brother... and NOT to ARGUE with you either, but might I ask you a question?

Do you percieve the "desires" of MAN, as being SELF-CREATED?   

What I means is, ...for example, ....Is the LUST of the eye a creation/innovation of MAN?  Or of GOD?  Is it something we ORIGINATED (without His involvment), and brought into being?   

Or is it better observed as a parameter (ability of the flesh) that GOD placed within our NATURAL Creation ...  And if it IS... then how can we NATURALLY, ..."do or desire" otherwise? 

Nevertheless concerning "free will", if one notes this concept as a REAL part and portion of the PURPOSE and process of GOD, ... then one is left to prove the validity of it in the available Scriptures, in order to establish it as VALID part of that purpose and process...

If it is a part, then it must be established in HIS WORD... which, it is not... where is FREE WILL, stated as a teaching of Scripture?

If one cannot validate "FREE WILL" as a Biblical premise, then it is an idea found to be EXTRA (other than) Biblical... 


To "choose" is not free will... it is the gravitation to one option or another, which have been provided from an EXTERNAL source...

Also... one other note... if GOD is working ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... (Eph 1:11) than where does MAN's "will" enter as a factor? 

And if in fact, it does... then GOD is only "working" some things... and Man is "working" the others...

As I observe it, ...ALL things means, ALL THINGS...   

We are all "DOING" according to the Declaration that GOD made of us (who were not), which HE made, declaring with HIS WORDS, the END from the BEGINNING...

ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of GOD... why?  Because it IS WRITTEN  in His WORD they HAVE SINNED (Rom 3:23)...

Even those yet to be born, HAVE SINNED!  Why?  Because it IS WRITTEN that GOD concludes ALL in UNBELIEF, (Rom 11:32) which results in SIN (whatsoever is not of FAITH is SIN - Rom 14:23)... That He might have MERCY upon ALL...

blessings brother! 

pEACe...
...willieH 

[reFORMer]

The word "free" does not occur in the Scripture in connection with "will" as in the phrase "free will."  It simply is NOT written.  The scripture speaks of being "captives of the devil at his will," of man's will, "I will praise Thee O God," and "God..works in us both to will and do of His good pleasure; and It speaks of God's will, "I will mercy and not sacrifice," and, "God is not willing that any should perish..."  Our prayer is, "They will be done in earth as it is in heaven," not "My will (what I choose) be done."  I believe boulemai and thelema are at least two Greek words that distinguish differing aspects of God's will, what He will have occur no matter what we do or do not do, and then those things He would have us do that we may set aside.  The topic is confused when we rely on un-Biblical terminology.  Just speak of will and it's nuances in Scripture, not the extra-Biblical "free will."

The projection of carnal human characteristics onto God is also a source of much misunderstanding.  God does not need force as a man would use in order to get what He wants.  You can "freely" choose what you desire without any inkling of being influence by God and it is God causing you to go His foreordained way.

Also, we have very little comprehension of what love is!  God told us to love our enemies because that is His nature.  He hates wickedness because it destroys those of His children of Adam, all of whom are precious in his sight!  So He is at work to change us all.  Christ died for the unGodly.  WE HAVE VERY LITTLE AWARENESS AT ALL OF WHAT LOVE IS!!!

The religious doctrine I was raised in had everybody deserving to be unceasingly tortured  without end just for being born here.  I understood that all my thoughts and all my desires were sin tainted, wicked and unacceptable to God.  WRONG!!! WRONG!!!  WRONG!!!

Not everybody, even in their "natural" state should be considered wicked.  I'm not going into a more complete expose on this at the moment; but, God declared the man He's made to be not just good but "very good."  There is no "original sin."  There is a sort of "original death" that got passed on, a condition called mortality.  People die even when they don't deserve to.

Romans 5:12-14:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin reigns in the realm or sphere of death.  Victory over death is a necessary corollary to a sinless life.  Incorruption is inextricably an aspect of immortality.

Romans 5:21:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto (lit: "in") death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

To come back from this slight digression, I used to mercilessly demolish any desire (lust) for anything that happened inside me as being of my carnal nature and displeasing to God.  I have discovered God would establish desires in our hearts that we might genuinely participate with delight in His works.  He wants fellowship.  He actually loves us and wants to fulfill us; but, it is as a good and wise Creator that only does right.  He knows how to bring about the reproduction of His own image and likeness in us.  He has said that He does not willing grieve or frustrate a man in his cause.  To suffer according to God's will is only if necessary and is for a short season.  We are to be led out into a large place.  We are to bless because we have been called by Him to receive a blessing!

[autoimmune]

I would differentiate between free choice (which I do believe we have and is the source of our human responsibility before God) and free will (which I don't believe we have, at least not in the way it has traditionally been defined). 

We can freely respond (choose our re-actions) in response to (and within) an environment of cause/effect out of our realm of control that barrages us and constantly impinges on our will.  The rapist or abuser may have been placed in a particular environment and have been given a particular personality prone to harming others, but the choice is still theirs, regardless of how many causes/effects have impinged on their will previous to their choice to do harm to another.

For that reason, because our wills are never truly in a situation where the world, others and God do not affect the choices we make, I say our wills are not entirely free . . . at least until we find our identity in God--in which case our will becomes absolutely free because it is His will. We can Love in perfect freedom and without fear then--meaning our wills are not being influenced by external forces then.

Until then, regardless of how other factors impinge on our will, we still have freedom of choice regarding--and responsibility for--our actions.

Mary Ellen

[willieH]

I would differentiate between free choice (which I do believe we have and is the source of our human responsibility before God) and free will (which I don't believe we have, at least not in the way it has traditionally been defined). 

We can freely respond (choose our re-actions) in response to (and within) an environment of cause/effect out of our realm of control that barrages us and constantly impinges on our will.  The rapist or abuser may have been placed in a particular environment and have been given a particular personality prone to harming others, but the choice is still theirs, regardless of how many causes/effects have impinged on their will previous to their choice to do harm to another.

For that reason, because our wills are never truly in a situation where the world, others and God do not affect the choices we make, I say our wills are not entirely free . . . at least until we find our identity in God--in which case our will becomes absolutely free because it is His will. We can Love in perfect freedom and without fear then--meaning our wills are not being influenced by external forces then.

Until then, regardless of how other factors impinge on our will, we still have freedom of choice regarding--and responsibility for--our actions.

Mary Ellen

CHOICE is not "FREE WILL"... "choice" is choosing from options provided...

The "wills" of MEN are not AT ALL FREE, Mary Ellen... They are found IN BONDAGE to themselves, ...if they "choose" anything but the WILL of GOD...

(John 8:32)

Ye shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall ...MAKE... you FREE...

TRUTH is the creator of FREEDOM Mary E... not the ability to "choose"...

When one KNOWS the TRUTH and is immersed IN IT... then the WILL of GOD is what one "CHOOSES"...

As PER JESUS CHRIST ...in ALL CASES in His life... 

The GLORIOUS LIBERTY of the CHILDREN of GOD shall be the FREEDOM of the ENTIRE CREATION ...Mary Ellen,

Which is now IN BONDAGE and CORRUPTION... and which is also, under the control of MEN who are IN BONDAGE to their "WILLS", which results in manifesting the Creation into CORRUPTION upon CORRUPTION... (Rom 8:21-22)

Pollution, destruction, extinction, through and BY the LOVE of MONEY, ...is what the "WILLS" of MEN bring to pass as they "choose"... NOT FREEDOM...

BONDAGE begats BONDAGE... MEN's WILL

FREEDOM begats FREEDOM... GOD's WILL

peacE...
...willieH 

[autoimmune]

I would differentiate between free choice (which I do believe we have and is the source of our human responsibility before God) and free will (which I don't believe we have, at least not in the way it has traditionally been defined). 

We can freely respond (choose our re-actions) in response to (and within) an environment of cause/effect out of our realm of control that barrages us and constantly impinges on our will.  The rapist or abuser may have been placed in a particular environment and have been given a particular personality prone to harming others, but the choice is still theirs, regardless of how many causes/effects have impinged on their will previous to their choice to do harm to another.

For that reason, because our wills are never truly in a situation where the world, others and God do not affect the choices we make, I say our wills are not entirely free . . . at least until we find our identity in God--in which case our will becomes absolutely free because it is His will. We can Love in perfect freedom and without fear then--meaning our wills are not being influenced by external forces then.

Until then, regardless of how other factors impinge on our will, we still have freedom of choice regarding--and responsibility for--our actions.

Mary Ellen

CHOICE is not "FREE WILL"... "choice" is choosing from options provided...

The "wills" of MEN are not AT ALL FREE, Mary Ellen... They are found IN BONDAGE to themselves, ...if they "choose" anything but the WILL of GOD...

LOL! You're preaching to the choir, Willie.  Re-read what I posted.  I was agreeing with you that the two ARE different things.  If we disagree at all, it may be because we see the relationship between free choice and responsibility for sin differently.

Do you believe that being in bondage to sin means we are predestined TO sin?  If so, are you saying we have no responsibility for our personal sins? That the rapist has no choice BUT to rape? 

If not, are you saying the rapist is responsible for his choice to harm another, regardless of the circumstances and environment he has been born into?

Just looking for clarification, not a debate :)

ME

[willieH]

willieH: Hello Mary Ellen... 

LOL! You're preaching to the choir, Willie.  Re-read what I posted.  I was agreeing with you that the two ARE different things.  If we disagree at all, it may be because we see the relationship between free choice and responsibility for sin differently.

In light of how you have sidestepped me, I feel no obligation to "re-read" anything at your suggestion...

There is no "free choice", neither is there RESPONSIBILITY for SIN... We are JUDGED for SIN, not RESPONSIBLE to make restitution for it...

In that JUDGMENT... is RIGHTEOUSNESS Taught to the ones who have not yet learned:

(Is 26:9)  JUDGMENT is a TEACHER of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Not a weapon that an ALMIGHTY GOD, must use to "beat" His creatures with...

Do you believe that being in bondage to sin means we are predestined TO sin?  If so, are you saying we have no responsibility for our personal sins? That the rapist has no choice BUT to rape?

You need to read a little, yourself Mary Ellen... GOD not only knew the rapist would rape, but brought him and his victim forth to be in the SAME proximity in TIME and SPACE, ...sustained both during the act, and ...did NOT intervene or try to stop it, did He? 

The rapist "CHOOSES" to rape for two reasons...

(1) because his "choice" is in bondage to himself and the wickedness in his heart...
(2) Because YHVH Declared that choice would be made by the rapist, from the beginning...

(Is 46:10-11) from ancient times that ARE NOT DONE...

(Is 48:3) I have DECLARED the former things from the BEGINNING and they went FORTH out of MY MOUTH, and I showed them and they CAME TO PASS...

(Rom 4:17) ...GOD who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which BE NOT, as though THEY WERE...

(Eph 1:11)  YHVH is WORKING, ...ALL THINGS,  (not just some) after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL..   

Do you believe what IS WRITTEN, Mary Ellen?  If you do, then KNOW that GOD is IN CONTROL of every IOTA of His Creation... and that ALL POWER is of GOD (Rom 14:1)  And that ALL in IN HIM (Acts 17:28)... and that He is ALMIGHTY, which means ALL MIGHT is HIS... and to whomever He delegates it's use... be it PHARAOH, or HITLER, or BILLY GRAHAM...

Nothing happens in Creation that HE has not ORDAINED to happen... 

How many "wills" do you think, will BE in ETERNITY Mary Ellen?   

Will you have FREE WILL there?    Or is it just here? 

If not, are you saying the rapist is responsible for his choice to harm another, regardless of the circumstances and environment he has been born into?

Just WHY do you think CHRIST died to redeem us from SIN Mary?  So He could turn around and blame us for it?      ...Please! 

What does this verse say to you Mary Ellen?  (1 Cor 5:19)  Does it say He shall hold our trespasses against us?  Is that what you get out of it? 

What does "NOT IMPUTING" say to you... is your understanding that "RECONCILING" and "NOT IMPUTING" actually means "HOLDING RESPONSIBLE"? 

You did not decide to be a SINNER Mary Ellen... GOD decided you would be... (Rom 11:32) 

WHY?  ...Because HIS WORD says YOU ARE, ...so guess what, ...YOU ARE! (Rom 3:23) 

The Rapist rapes, because GOD said (Declared from the beginning) he would rape... the thief steals because GOD said (Declared) he would... Pharaoh didn't let the people GO, because GOD hardened his heart, so he wouldn't let them go... am I going too fast? 

(Jer 29:14) HE drives us into CAPTIVITY... Its all there Mary... and its not up to you or I... it is up to HIM as HE WORKS ALL THINGS after HIS WILL Mary! He is not, "reacting" to what "we do"! 

It is NOT about US Mary Ellen, it is about HIM and HIS WONDERFUL L  V E, and all that occurs is due to HIS PURPOSE for ALL... Tune into it, and let Him have ALL the credit, for ALL THINGS, and know that ALL THINGS shall END in the midst of that GREAT and WONDERFUL...

                     L V E 

Of Our Father YHVH and His Son JESUS CHRIST!

pEace...
...willieH