Not all will accept it

[Paul Hazelwood]

The issue is what God will do and what that means if he IS LOVE.


Scripture directly declares that GOD IS LOVE.   GOD is not Wrath or judgment or punishment or correction or righteousness those are by scriptural wording , things God does or posesses.


When that is known,  then the issue is not that God has Wrath,  it is what Love does with Wrath,  What does love do with righteousness, what does love do with punishment, what does love do with correction, what does love do with judgment.

We do not need the ability to discuss any term in a forum,  we just need to take scripture and ask the right questions.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe the wide road that leads to destruction can also be read as the wide road on which most sheep get lost.
(but the shepherd still keeps seaching)

what about the goats?

I don't know Zeek....
Do you think Jesus is only a shepherd of sheep? If so that would mean sheep are the elect and goats are the 95% of Calvinism...

[jabcat]

I dunno, but I've read that goats were also a "clean" animal..now where that all fits, not sure.  Is it something deeper/different than what's on the surface, or how we usually see it and are taught it?    Remember, He spoke in parables "lest they would understand and believe"!

[Zeek]

Well, something to think about; is in the prodigal son story, both were sons; but there are those who are referred to as "children of satan", the father of lies.  

and sons are chastened; but there are "bastards". 

[bobf]

Well, something to think about; is in the prodigal son story, both were sons; but there are those who are referred to as "children of satan", the father of lies.  

and sons are chastened; but there are "bastards".

Both were sons in what sense?  I don't think you can conclude from the fact that they are called "sons" in the parable that they types of "Sons of God".  In fact, I don't believe either were "Sons of God" at the start of the story, and only the younger was a "Son of God" by the end of the story.

In one of Jesus' other parables there were also two "sons".  One said "yes" but did not go.  The other said "no" but later went.  The former represented the pharisees.  The latter represented the sinners who were preceding the pharisees into the kingdom of God.  Cleary the pharisees were not "Sons of God" by spiritual birth.  Yet they are a "son" in the parable.

[Zeek]

to the older son

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

[bobf]

to the older son

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

Those who are in bondage, under the elements of the world (e.g. the pharisees, servants not spiritual Sons of God) are still considered "heirs" and "lord of all" seeing that at the time appointed by the Father will become Sons of God and inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

[Zeek]

to the older son

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

Those who are in bondage, under the elements of the world (e.g. the pharisees, servants not spiritual Sons of God) are still considered "heirs" and "lord of all" seeing that at the time appointed by the Father will become Sons of God and inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[legoman]

Two levels here:
elect/sheep/firstfruits - these are saved now, in this life, they are the "sons of God".
Non-elect/goats(maybe)/lastfruits - these are saved later, brought into the kingdom (not the reign though) later through the sons of God.

Scripture speaks of both groups.  Most people assumed the non-elect are not saved.  Not true.  They are just saved later.  Everyone has their appointed position, everyone will learn the truth.

Consider this verse, the NLT makes this idea a bit clearer:

Romans 8:20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

All creation (everyone) will join God's children!  That is good news.

[WhiteWings]

I dunno, but I've read that goats were also a "clean" animal..

Must be in one of Cardinals posts. At least she's teh only one I remember mentioning it.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7215.msg83220#msg83220  ==> still waiting for #121 
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6676.msg73194#msg73194  ==> Goat hair curtains on tabernacle
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6677.msg73186#msg73186
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1171.msg9491#msg9491 ==> seperating goats and sheep

Mybe the goat is our sinful part that gets purged. Just like wheat. The seeds are saved and the chaff destroyed. 1 plant 2 actions.

Time for to count some sheep  Nite.

[bobf]

Two levels here:
elect/sheep/firstfruits - these are saved now, in this life, they are the "sons of God".
Non-elect/goats(maybe)/lastfruits - these are saved later, brought into the kingdom (not the reign though) later through the sons of God.

Scripture speaks of both groups.  Most people assumed the non-elect are not saved.  Not true.  They are just saved later.  Everyone has their appointed position, everyone will learn the truth.

Consider this verse, the NLT makes this idea a bit clearer:

Romans 8:20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

All creation (everyone) will join God's children!  That is good news.

The way I understand it is that the word "elect" refers to a person when he is saved or when looking forward to when he is saved.  In other words, the "lastfruits" are (will be) just as much "elect" as firstfruits.

For an example of this, look at Romans 11.  

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The elect obtained but the rest were blinded. So "the rest" are being excluded from "the elect" here. But that's only because it is viewing them in the present.  When looking into the future, these same blinded enemies of the gospel are referred to as "the election".

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

......................hmmmm.... I just had another thought that could undo what I just wrote.  Does "the election" in verse 28 refer to the ultimate election of these enemies of the gospel or does it refer to the election of the fathers?

[Theo Book]

The issue is what God will do and what that means if he IS LOVE.


Scripture directly declares that GOD IS LOVE.   GOD is not Wrath or judgment or punishment or correction or righteousness those are by scriptural wording , things God does or posesses.


When that is known,  then the issue is not that God has Wrath,  it is what Love does with Wrath,  What does love do with righteousness, what does love do with punishment, what does love do with correction, what does love do with judgment.

We do not need the ability to discuss any term in a forum,  we just need to take scripture and ask the right questions.

Well, I will admit that MAY be one possibility,  But what if the opposite is true? Suppose God is a God of vengeance, and his vengeance is tempered with Love toward his people.
Ezekiel 25:14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.

Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

It may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The issue is what God will do and what that means if he IS LOVE.


Scripture directly declares that GOD IS LOVE.   GOD is not Wrath or judgment or punishment or correction or righteousness those are by scriptural wording , things God does or posesses.


When that is known,  then the issue is not that God has Wrath,  it is what Love does with Wrath,  What does love do with righteousness, what does love do with punishment, what does love do with correction, what does love do with judgment.

We do not need the ability to discuss any term in a forum,  we just need to take scripture and ask the right questions.

Well, I will admit that MAY be one possibility,  But what if the opposite is true? Suppose God is a God of vengeance, and his vengeance is tempered with Love toward his people.
Ezekiel 25:14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.

Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

It may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.

Well, "is" is an additional word in the scripture, from the hebrew  it is not there between God and Jealous.


el qannow naqam


Explain this "dangerous" stand that may well be.

[WhiteWings]

It may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.

Hi Theo,
You are right that God is God of vengeance. It's written so it's true. However veneance can have many gradation. Slap on the wrist of  eternal torture.
However God is also a God of love. That's also a fact because it's written in the Bible.
Imo the Bible shows limititations. And the verses showing that limitations may give you your answer....

Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
---> This is not only for this lifetime... Malachi 3:6  "I the LORD do not change....
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
1 Corinthians 13:8  The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Lamentations 3:31-32  For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

Most of those verses mention wrath/vengeance/punishment/etc
But in the very same verse there is always a second part of the verse that strongly states love will conquer.
I think thes verses are of great importance because both concepts are mentioned in one verse. It's easy to understand. No discussions about linking a hate verse in genesis to a love verse in Revelation.

I hope it's of some use to you.

[Theo Book]

It may well be a dangerous stand to take that God is love, and only temporarily hates his enemies. Rather, look to God who is the God of vengeance, taking vengeance even unto the fourth generation, though he tempers his wrath with love, on HIS PEOPLE.

Hi Theo,
You are right that God is God of vengeance. It's written so it's true. However veneance can have many gradation. Slap on the wrist of  eternal torture.
However God is also a God of love. That's also a fact because it's written in the Bible.
Imo the Bible shows limititations. And the verses showing that limitations may give you your answer....

Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
---> This is not only for this lifetime... Malachi 3:6  "I the LORD do not change....
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
1 Corinthians 13:8  The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Lamentations 3:31-32  For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

Most of those verses mention wrath/vengeance/punishment/etc
But in the very same verse there is always a second part of the verse that strongly states love will conquer.
I think thes verses are of great importance because both concepts are mentioned in one verse. It's easy to understand. No discussions about linking a hate verse in genesis to a love verse in Revelation.

I hope it's of some use to you.

Very much so. Thank you.