Gary under attack

[alihaymeg]

I love my babies!

[B_T]

http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm :)

[WhiteWings]

 

[WhiteWings]

   Tis True , so many when they first hear  God will save everyone in the end , consumation of the ages , All in All
  the ET  defense  is "Than why do we go though all this than , If GOD  is going to save everyone?"

The same can be said at people that believe in  "the elect".
What's the use if it's already clear who gets saved?
The same question can be asked to all denominations. Whatever teh percentage of people that reach heaven, God already knew before He started creation. So the "what's the use" question not only applies to UR but also to all other beliefs

[lomarah]

Oh, I can't stop laughing, especially at the name "Spamereault" :) 

LOL same!

It makes me sad that the person attacking Gary is not even answering the questions he is asking. Spamereault is going to have to do better than that!

[WhiteWings]

Spamereault is going to have to do better than that!

Gary=Spamerault 

[lomarah]

Gary is Spamereault???

[WhiteWings]

Gary is Gary Amirault. Spamerault is just part of the ad hominem attack.

On his website, and perhaps at other places, Gary posted
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
It are not Gary's questions:

The questions were written by A. C. Thomas and appeared in a book by E. H. Lake, entitled "The Key to Truth".

But obviously Gary agrees with the 213 questions and put them on his website to be studied by others

One of those others was "Don C. Hewey". He has written a rebutal to the above mentioned article on his website. http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm
As you can see the title of his debunking article is 'slightly different'

Finally that refutation is refuted again: http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
So basicly Gary didn't write one letter of the article. I never claimed so BTW because he clearly stated the list is part of a book.

So the sequence is:
Article/claims -> refutation -> proving the refutation wrong

It's a clear victory for UR because person running the www.1john57.com site never answered the "his"refutation"being refuted. He is aware of the TentMaker site because he even links to the article. By the tone of the article it's also clear he would love to ridecule those who refuted his refutation. So if he had an answer it sure would be on his site . At least that my bet....

Grasping the whole 'story line' takes some switching between articles and easily overlooked. I hope it's a bit more clear now Lomarah.
 

[WhiteWings]

The above mentioned book and list is (partly) based on a book called: Universalist companion.

It's a very old book and out of copyright. So it can be downloaded for free from Google books.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VQARAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA41&dq=%22The+Key+to+Truth%22+%22E.+H.+Lake%22&as_brr=0&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Key%20to%20Truth%22%20%22E.%20H.%20Lake%22&f=false

I really recommend downloading because reading online is to slow to be funny and not without displaying issue's
Click the little PDF button on the top right to download the book.

The book is scanned (=each page is a photo) so the Find/Search function in you Adobe Acrbat (Reader) won't work. I'm converting those pictures to searchable text right now.
(I found the book when writing the message above) If you want the bin searchable format just ask.

[lomarah]

Gary is Gary Amirault. Spamerault is just part of the ad hominem attack.

On his website, and perhaps at other places, Gary posted
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
It are not Gary's questions:

The questions were written by A. C. Thomas and appeared in a book by E. H. Lake, entitled "The Key to Truth".

But obviously Gary agrees with the 213 questions and put them on his website to be studied by others

One of those others was "Don C. Hewey". He has written a rebutal to the above mentioned article on his website. http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm
As you can see the title of his debunking article is 'slightly different'

Finally that refutation is refuted again: http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
So basicly Gary didn't write one letter of the article. I never claimed so BTW because he clearly stated the list is part of a book.

So the sequence is:
Article/claims -> refutation -> proving the refutation wrong

It's a clear victory for UR because person running the www.1john57.com site never answered the "his"refutation"being refuted. He is aware of the TentMaker site because he even links to the article. By the tone of the article it's also clear he would love to ridecule those who refuted his refutation. So if he had an answer it sure would be on his site . At least that my bet....

Grasping the whole 'story line' takes some switching between articles and easily overlooked. I hope it's a bit more clear now Lomarah.
 

Ooookay now I understand LOL thanks for that. I hadn't read any of the article, just caught the word Spamereault and thought it was humorous that someone would stoop to that level.

[Theo Book]

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mat22:32, Mark 12:27). [/color]

[response]
God is the God of everything. Of the living. Of the dead.

So if he chooses not to be the God of the dead He needs to make the dead alive.

Questions for WW:
1) How can you say God is the God of the dead, contrary to express statements of scripture?Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." [Also Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38]



2) If there is no representation for the dead before God, what is the purpose of Jesus being Lord of the dead?  Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
 
Had you considered this? It is one of many proofs Jesus is not God, because he is Lord of the dead, but God is not.

[WhiteWings]

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mat22:32, Mark 12:27). [/color]

[response]
God is the God of everything. Of the living. Of the dead.

So if he chooses not to be the God of the dead He needs to make the dead alive.

Questions for WW:
1) How can you say God is the God of the dead, contrary to express statements of scripture?Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." [Also Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38]

Let me start with saying I'm not denying those verses.
Like always it's about how they are understood. I understand it this way...
God is the owner of everything in the universe. Including dead people. But because He'll turn all death into life He's not God of the dead. I hope you at least understand what I'm trying to say because I can't explain any better.
The verses you mentioned are spoken to the Sadducees who rejected resurrection from the dead.
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

The Sadducees believed in a god that let the stay dead forever. Jesus answered that His God does resurrect dead people. People are alive before death. And they are alive after resurrection. Both times God is their God.
But isn't He the period in between? I think yes.

^KJVPsa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell(=grave=dead), behold, thou art there.

[Theo Book]

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Mat22:32, Mark 12:27). [/color]

[response]
God is the God of everything. Of the living. Of the dead.

So if he chooses not to be the God of the dead He needs to make the dead alive.

Questions for WW:
1) How can you say God is the God of the dead, contrary to express statements of scripture?Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." [Also Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38]

Let me start with saying I'm not denying those verses.
Like always it's about how they are understood. I understand it this way...
God is the owner of everything in the universe. Including dead people. But because He'll turn all death into life He's not God of the dead. I hope you at least understand what I'm trying to say because I can't explain any better.
The verses you mentioned are spoken to the Sadducees who rejected resurrection from the dead.
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

The Sadducees believed in a god that let the stay dead forever. Jesus answered that His God does resurrect dead people. People are alive before death. And they are alive after resurrection. Both times God is their God.
But isn't He the period in between? I think yes.

^KJVPsa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell(=grave=dead), behold, thou art there.

o.k. That's an answer at least. I think it evades the reality, but maybe not. If God is not the God of the dead, (and I think you have it right about living and resurrected to life), but Jesus is Lord of the dead, it requires a little more consideration. Up to you though if you think not.

[WhiteWings]

o.k. That's an answer at least. I think it evades the reality, but maybe not. If God is not the God of the dead, (and I think you have it right about living and resurrected to life), but Jesus is Lord of the dead, it requires a little more consideration. Up to you though if you think not.

^KJVRom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Ok, Jesus is Lord of both living and dead. Does that mean Father is not Lord of the living and/or dead?
Rom 14:9  speaks about Jesus. That doesn't exclude or include Father.
I think although Jesus is also Lord of the death it's not His goal/wish. His goal is to transform the kindom of death into life. Taking away the string of death. Son is doing all things according to authority and planning of Father.

I think the verses are not denying there is death, God not being God of those dead people, etc. The verses deny a never ending state of being dead like the Saduccians believed.
 

[Theo Book]

o.k. That's an answer at least. I think it evades the reality, but maybe not. If God is not the God of the dead, (and I think you have it right about living and resurrected to life), but Jesus is Lord of the dead, it requires a little more consideration. Up to you though if you think not.

^KJVRom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Ok, Jesus is Lord of both living and dead. Does that mean Father is not Lord of the living and/or dead?
Rom 14:9  speaks about Jesus. That doesn't exclude or include Father.
I think although Jesus is also Lord of the death it's not His goal/wish. His goal is to transform the kindom of death into life. Taking away the string of death. Son is doing all things according to authority and planning of Father.

I think the verses are not denying there is death, God not being God of those dead people, etc. The verses deny a never ending state of being dead like the Saduccians believed.
 

I think the statement that Jesus died SO THAT he could be Lord of the dead pretty well establishes why God is not God of the dead. God has never experienced death for himself. He cannot die. Remember, being LORD of the dead is WHY Jesus died. ("To this end) I think we all agree Jesus' death was not THE end, so it was a specific end God had in mind. He spoke not of an ending so much as a goal, or end of a pursuit. "For this reason" says it about the same. It qualified Jesus to be appointed or anointed Lord of the dead.

[lookingup]

i hope this will fit into the discussion, but i found this excerpt from an email response from L.Raysmith at bt and thought it may be helpful for further understanding, it was a question about God of the living:

The love their religion and its pagan doctrines, but they despise the Word of God. So that when you show them the Word of God they will deny that it is speaking an eternal truth. Christians worship the god of "context, context, context," but when you show them how something is used in "context," they then deny the whole "context" scenario. These Scriptures are so easily understood with a little of God's Spirit, that one wonders how any Christian theologian would have the gall to argue against what our Lord has said, but they do. Okay let's look at these verses IN CONTEXT:
     
    Matt. 22:32--"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.  God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING.
     
    Mark 12:27--"...He is not the God of the dead, but the God of he living: ye therefore do greatly err."
     
    Luke 20:38--"For He is not a God of the dead, but of the LIVING: for all live unto Him."
     
    Now then, what have we read?  God is not the God of the dead.  Why not?  Because there is zero response to God from dead people. "...for the living know that they shall die, but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9;5).
     
    Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    But will an orthodox Christian believe this verse? OF COURSE NOT. What happens to a person's thoughts when he dies?

    Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    Will an orthodox Christian believe and accept this verse, that dead people are dead and have no knowledge or thoughts of any kind?  OF COURSE NOT.

    Now then, did Jesus say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are NOT dead? Did he actually say that?  No, He did not.  But He did say that "God is the God of the LIVING," didn't He?  So how can God be the God of Abraham when God is God of the living, but Abraham is DEAD?  Just read the verse before and it is clear as the noon day sun:

    "But as TOUCHING THE  R-E-S-U-R-R-E-C-T-I-O-N  OF THE  D-E-A-D  ...God is the God of the LIVING" (Matt. 22:31)!

    "And as TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read....God [is] the God of the LIVING..." (Mark 12:26).

    "...being the children of the RESURRECTION.  Now that the DEAD ARE RAISED [RESURRECTION], even Moses showed...God [is] the God of the LIVING" (Luke 20:36-38).

    So just exactly, precisely, doctrinally, Scripturally, truthfully, is "God the God of the Living" to people who are still DEAD?  THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, by BRINGING BACK THE DEAD, by RAISING UP THE DEAD, so that they may again have "thoughts" of praise and "know" Who the True God is.

[Theo Book]

i hope this will fit into the discussion, but i found this excerpt from an email response from L.Raysmith at bt and thought it may be helpful for further understanding, it was a question about God of the living:

The love their religion and its pagan doctrines, but they despise the Word of God. So that when you show them the Word of God they will deny that it is speaking an eternal truth. Christians worship the god of "context, context, context," but when you show them how something is used in "context," they then deny the whole "context" scenario. These Scriptures are so easily understood with a little of God's Spirit, that one wonders how any Christian theologian would have the gall to argue against what our Lord has said, but they do. Okay let's look at these verses IN CONTEXT:
     
    Matt. 22:32--"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.  God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING.
     
    Mark 12:27--"...He is not the God of the dead, but the God of he living: ye therefore do greatly err."
     
    Luke 20:38--"For He is not a God of the dead, but of the LIVING: for all live unto Him."
     
    Now then, what have we read?  God is not the God of the dead.  Why not?  Because there is zero response to God from dead people. "...for the living know that they shall die, but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9;5).
     
    Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    But will an orthodox Christian believe this verse? OF COURSE NOT. What happens to a person's thoughts when he dies?

    Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    Will an orthodox Christian believe and accept this verse, that dead people are dead and have no knowledge or thoughts of any kind?  OF COURSE NOT.

    Now then, did Jesus say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are NOT dead? Did he actually say that?  No, He did not.  But He did say that "God is the God of the LIVING," didn't He?  So how can God be the God of Abraham when God is God of the living, but Abraham is DEAD?  Just read the verse before and it is clear as the noon day sun:

    "But as TOUCHING THE  R-E-S-U-R-R-E-C-T-I-O-N  OF THE  D-E-A-D  ...God is the God of the LIVING" (Matt. 22:31)!

    "And as TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read....God [is] the God of the LIVING..." (Mark 12:26).

    "...being the children of the RESURRECTION.  Now that the DEAD ARE RAISED [RESURRECTION], even Moses showed...God [is] the God of the LIVING" (Luke 20:36-38).

    So just exactly, precisely, doctrinally, Scripturally, truthfully, is "God the God of the Living" to people who are still DEAD?  THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, by BRINGING BACK THE DEAD, by RAISING UP THE DEAD, so that they may again have "thoughts" of praise and "know" Who the True God is.

That's all very well said, but it does not touch on the difference between "God is NOT the "God of the dead" and "Jesus IS Lord of the dead." THAT is the question for consideration.

But I do appreciate your thoughts, as they introduce another dimension to the discussion.

[eaglesway]

A point of view to consider

God is God of all....for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Jesus is Lord of all....For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross


He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 
(Eph 1:9-10)


For HE(God) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS(Jesus) FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He(God) is excepted who(God) put all things in subjection to Him(Jesus). When all things are subjected to Him(Jesus), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One(God) who subjected all things to Him(Jesus), so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:27-28)

This is a summary of the whole plan of God.

For from Him.....

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
(Col 1:15-17)

And through Him

 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.  For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, (Col 1:18-20)

And to Him are all things

 and through Him(Jesus) to reconcile all things to Himself(God), having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

After all the enemies are abolished there will be no need for "rule, power and authority" for all will be one in the love of God flowing in the glorious liberty of the sons of God, all having settled into their appointed place in the infinite glories of God, in perfect harmony and celebration.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
(1Co 15:22-26)

When Jesus says God is not the God of the dead but of the living, He is speaking to the deadness of the Pharisees and their separation from God, related to their hostility to God as murderers and scoffers. He is not putting any limitation on the Creator. When Jesus speaks, "Your God and My God", He is speaking to the living, alive in Christ, who know the "I AM". Nevertheless as David writes, "If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art with me". When writers represent things from the point of view of man's consciousness(the dead know nothing) they are not limiting the all encompassing omniscience and omnipotence of the Creator. He is not the God of the dead to the extent that they cannot perceive Him as such and are blind behind the veil of death, carnality and self-righteousness. Yet, he is the Creator of all, and as Paul proclaimed to the assembled philosophers of the nations at Mars Hill(Acts 17:27,28    "...though He is not far from each one of us ... for in Him we live and breath and have our being....for we are all His children". His inclusive language to them was a declaration of grace.