Author Topic: Does God love his enemies?  (Read 2490 times)

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Offline legoman

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Does God love his enemies?
« on: March 14, 2009, 03:26:28 PM »
I know Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but does God/Jesus love His enemies?

Luke 6:35 seems to indicate it.  Matt 5:48 also seems to indicate it.

Romans 11:28 also gives an indication:
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

Of course God is love, and God loves "the world" - but different people have "different" (ie. crazy) interpretations of what "the world" means.

Any other scriptures that support God loving all and loving his enemies?

Legoman

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2009, 03:46:39 PM »
Hi Legoman,

Luke 6:35  .... for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
I agree that verse is clear.

Matt 5:48 is less clear to me.

Quote
Any other scriptures that support God loving all and loving his enemies?
In case you mean to link it to punishment; does it matter? Isn't Jesus doing all the judging and stuff?

Maybe not exactly what you are asking for but the verses below are closed what I can find.

Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
-> To me that means He possibly doesn't love His enemies; but certainly loves them 'in the morning'
--> This is not only for this lifetime... Malachi 3:6  "I the LORD do not change....

Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Lamentations 3:31-32  For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
-> Ditto

1 Corinthians 13:8  The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
-> Weak examples. I admit. It could be love toward the elect.

2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.
-> He is so driven that He even tries to find ways to restore His enemies. Does He fail?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2009, 03:52:54 PM »
Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
-> Unless all means the elect.
-> Mercy is most needed on those who earned the most punishment.

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:18  .... even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
=> The gift of life is given; not offered.
=> God even gives gifts to who oppose Him. -> love
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

aspiring son

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2009, 03:59:24 PM »
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Luke 23-34

God loves his enemies because he knows they are ignorant of who he is. No one is an enemy of God who has even a bit of spiritual awakening within them. People are enemies with religions, churches, creeds, themselves; but no one can be a true enemy of something they don't understand in the first place.
We are drawn to God, we do not choose him.Don't believe the babylonian systems that say it's your choice to be spiritually awakened; it's not! It's God's. Those men that hung Jesus weren't enemies of what Jesus was. He pricked their hearts, exposed their inner deeds.

1 John does say if we are friends with the world, then we are enemies of God. John was sharply pointing out that the flesh and the Spirit cannot co-exist. We are going one way or the other.

God clearly has those that are against him, for now, but it's simply because they don't understand which at some point was every single being that has walked this earth.

Grace and peace

Offline sparrow

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2009, 04:02:44 PM »
I don't think God really has any enemies.
THEY may think they're enemies of God.
But I don't think God sees it that way..
God sees all.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline legoman

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2009, 04:47:10 PM »
Matt 5:48 is less clear to me.


Let me explain Matt 5:48 further, in context:

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

We are to love our enemies, so we may be sons of God.  God causes causes the sun to rise and rain to fall on everyone - good & evil (his enemies).... therefore we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect ie. do what he does, implying we are to love our enemies as He loves his enemies.

Thanks for all the verses WW.  Pretty good for an athiest  :winkgrin: WhiteWings "the enigma" LOL

Cheers,
Legoman

Offline legoman

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 08:25:50 PM »
I would like to discuss this a bit more in a friendly place (ie. here  :HeartThrob:)

It seems there are 2 main arguements against God loving all:

1.  God doesn't love those he sends to hell (otherwise why would they be going to hell?), therefore God doesn't love the non-elect
2.  Scripture that says God hates ie. "God hates the wicked" or "Esau I hated".

The first point is dispensed with easily (at least here it is).

The second point is more interesting.  If God hates, does that mean he doesn't love all?

I view it like this - God hates the wicked, but when He is done with them, they won't be wicked anymore.  Likewise with Esau.  They will be "judged into righteousness" ala Isaiah 26:9.  When God is "all in all" there will be nothing left for God to hate - it will all have been reconciled and made righteous.

Thoughts?
Legoman

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 09:14:57 PM »
Thanks for all the verses WW.  Pretty good for an athiest  :winkgrin: WhiteWings "the enigma" LOL

It's the only way for me to learn. Reading the Bible seems impossible for me.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 09:25:06 PM »
I just requote 'my' verse from an earlier post.

Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
-> To me that means He possibly doesn't love His enemies; but certainly loves them 'in the morning'
--> This is not only for this lifetime... Malachi 3:6  "I the LORD do not change....

The reason I quote that verse again is that imo people quite often strech or add to verses.
God just said he hated Esau. That's all that is in that verse. No info on how much hatred. No info what God is going to do about it. No mentioning what the punishment will be? None at all? An headache for a day? Eternal hell?
For that kind of info we have to look elsewhere. There are many verses when Father shows His grumpy side.
But He also very often states that His bad mood always makes place for an 'all is forgiven' mood.


Malachi 1:3  And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13   As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I wanted to use the above verses as secondary proof for my claims above. So I quoted 2 relavant verses and started to hilight "hated". Hated is past tense.
It was good as long as it lasted  :laughing7:
I noticed love also is in past tense.
So my 'proof' now has turned into a question.
Hate is past tense I can understand. God forgives. So His hate fades away.
But love in past tense seems odd...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 10:31:15 PM »
For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life

Romans 5:10


Quote
2.  Scripture that says God hates ie. "God hates the wicked" or "Esau I hated".

some say Hebrew 'hate' means something like 'love less', I read something interesting concerning this from the Concordant Publishers, Esau didn't suffer from God's hate but become a big nation aswell, didn't he?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 10:59:56 PM »
For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life

Romans 5:10


Quote
2.  Scripture that says God hates ie. "God hates the wicked" or "Esau I hated".

some say Hebrew 'hate' means something like 'love less', I read something interesting concerning this from the Concordant Publishers, Esau didn't suffer from God's hate but become a big nation aswell, didn't he?



No, really the hebrew word for hate is what we would expect.  What happens is people do not understand why we need to keep Hebrew and Greek separate.   

Hebrew

H8130  sane'  saw-nay'

a primitive root;

to hate (personally):--enemy, foe, (be) hate(-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

If we look at a verse in malachi it is not talking about the human Esau to give credibility to an argument that God doesn't love everyone.
 
Mal 1:3 yet Esau I hate. And I will make his mountains a desolation, and his allotment is for the jackals of the wilderness.


It is talking about the nature of Esau, thats why it uses references to nature here.

Greek

G3404  miseo  mis-eh'-o

from a primary misos (hatred);

to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less:--hate(-ful).


OK, here we have "Love less", but its not the primary use, it can be used that way but those that want to focus on terms miss what is being said in the passage.


CLV Ro 9:12 it was declared to her that  "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior,"

CLV Ro 9:13 According as it is owritten~,  "*Jacob I love, yet *Esau I hate."

CLV Ro 9:14 *What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice besidewith *God? May it not be becomingcoming~ to that!

CLV Ro 9:15 For to *Moses He is saying,  "I shall be |merciful to whomever I may be |merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying."

CLV Ro 9:16 Consequently, then, it is not of him *who is willing, nor of him *who is racing, but of *God, the |Merciful.


According as it is written   This should be taken as the meaning being conveyed from the old testament.


To me it's simple.   God does what he does and whether it appears to us to be loving, that is the goal, that is the result.  LOVE   GOD THE MERCIFUL..

I cannot be convinced that "God the Merciful"  hates in a fashion that will cause or allow the "eternal" suffering of anyone.

People can work out the temporary however they deem fitting.







« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 11:02:27 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline claypot

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Re: Does God love his enemies?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 11:34:33 PM »
I know Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but does God/Jesus love His enemies?

Luke 6:35 seems to indicate it.  Matt 5:48 also seems to indicate it.

Romans 11:28 also gives an indication:
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

Of course God is love, and God loves "the world" - but different people have "different" (ie. crazy) interpretations of what "the world" means.

Any other scriptures that support God loving all and loving his enemies?

Legoman

Hey Lego,

2 things stick out in my mind and have helped me much........

1. If God is for you then nothing can be successfully against you and I just can't think of anyone God is not for, can you?

2. Jacob I love and Esau I hate. To me there is no way to explain this except in the context that God is saying He hates all things carnal and loves all things 'spiritual'. Esau obviously represents the flesh, Esau, Red, meat................his hunger for physical food, the giving up his birth right for food. And then we have that sneaky guy Jacob but it is obvious Jacob represents the spiritual or 'God side' of the equation.

Just my  :2c:

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.