Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED

[reFORMer]

It is common for six fingers and six toes to accompany the genetic condition producing giantism.

It has recently been discovered that two to five meters beneath the surface there are deposits of a special kind of mineral, sellite, sealite, or celite, having only "heard" it pronounced I don't know the spelling.  This stuff is estimated to hold thirty-three times the water in all of earth's oceans.

Some of this sons of God mating with human women weaves in and out of other stories about early mankind:  "Serpent's Seed" doctrine; the asexually reproducing Adam having offspring before it was put in a trance and the "curved chamber" was removed and built up into a womb-man; a creation prior to the week in Genesis one, some of which were approved and ascended, others went with the head of that creation, Lucifer who became Satan.  Those who were in between, in order to become judged, were incarnated as the people of this creation.  (Sounds like something I would do:  not love God enough, not hate the devil enough.)

Quite a bit more could be written about these topics; but, even though I lean to accepting certain things, I don't know that any it is of much importance for our walk with God.  Some of this panders to people's sense of self importance and an identity we should be getting from God within.  With reincarnation, for instance, I get no respect and nobody really cares for me here so it feels good to imagine I was once worshipped as a god.  (I guess some of us could just remember what it was like to be a teenager instead.)

I do believe there are things like incubus and succubus which I had some experiences with when I was young and ignorant.  This is far more common than it seems.  Many are ashamed to admit it and don't wan't to sound crazy.

[thinktank]

I said on another thread that Nathan talked about something.


Unholy union


The giants


Sons of God took women. Out of this unholy union where the  sons of Adam .i.e the sons of god, r**e the women probably of cains camp, who lived in a different location, and it is likely that the sons of Adam went over to their camp and saw how beautyfull the women were and so lusted and conceived sin in their hearts, which led them to do a terrible evil causing an unholy curse and this curse causes a mutation which means the woman gave birth to giants.

In the law of old testament it says that the man who takes a woman and causes her to have children must by law financially support that women and be responsible for that child. As his punishment he must work with the sweat of his brow in order to feed his children. Now since the original abusive act in Genesis took place, then a huge financial burden would be placed on the fathers because their offspring would be giagantic and require huge amounts of feeding, a big financial burden a fitting penalty for the barbaric evil. In those days a man could not just run away and avoid child support as they do today.

Note I'm not saing that giagantism today is related to that past evil in any shape or form, other than perhaps they share some of the same genetic material that may have passed down to subsequent generations and thus lies dormant in the human population.

When I look at it, to me the above makes sense and means that fallen angels cannot mate with woman to produce offspring and can only posess human beings and alter their reality but cannot father human offspring. For that which is of the flesh is flesh and that is of the spirit is spirit.

[Lefein]

There is still no consensus on whether or not the Sons of God where the Sethites, or Angels.

The Book of Enoch, while hardly canon, still provides a glimpse at accepted Hebrew thought on the matter, so the possibility of Angels who can take indeed take physical form - physical enough that the men of Sodom wanted to rape them...cannot be so easily swept away in favour of this plausible, but ..different.. theory.

We don't know a great deal about Angels themselves, infact, we only know of them through the lense of how we see them from their office, or their task at hand - Messenger, Warrior, Guardian, Keeper, etc.

We hardly know anything of their actual natures, aside from the fact that they are primarily supernatural, or spiritual.

We should remember though that spirit vs. flesh isn't like...idea vs. matter...It is Supernatural, vs. Natural.  Supernatural is still "Natural" it is just enhanced, superified.

So, the Nephilim could be indeed, the offspring of the Supernatural Servants of God, and the Natural children of Man, or they could be Sethites and Cainites... :p

But perhaps it is not really important to know, in the long run.

...Thinking about Supernatural and Natural though, I think I should do some thinking on that, might be fun! ^^

I'll share what I find after some thought! :D

[Cardinal]

  The spiritual definitely can affect the physical, and perhaps after that last episode if that is indeed what took place, perhaps God refused to let them mate with women after that?

Ever heard of a man with green blood that doesn't register any human characteristics? I have, and from a nurse relative. Ever heard of a man with no blood at death by gunshot? I have, again from a close associate. The common denominator? Demons. So if they can affect blood, and cause sickness, what else might they have been able to do?  My  Blessings....

[Lefein]

I don't think fallen angels would have that capacity, God has to allow them to do anything: see Job for more details.

But in the case of the Nephilim, it actually doesn't say anything regarding condemnation, nor condonement of the act, it merely mentions The Sons of God taking wives of the daughters of men, and bearing children.

These children where mighty men who where of old; men of renown (KJV), mortals of the name (Original Hebrew).

But there is no mention of the Sons of God, or their act, being directly referred to as rape, or even evil...atleast in this verse that I know of.

The word Nephilim itself (according to ISA's Hebrew text) means "Ones distinguished", or distinguished ones.

They are not even called devils, or fallen angels, or anything even similar - They are called The Sons of God, that says something about their nature.

I'd say, if the Sons of God where Angels indeed, that the Nephilim were in the eyes of men, what the Greeks would have called their gods...Noble, mighty, powerful humans, beautiful and perilous - having Angelic features.

[Molly]

it actually doesn't say anything regarding condemnation

Peter and Jude comment on that.

 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--Jude 1



2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

[Lefein]

But this could easily refer to the War in Heaven, not the union of Angel and Man.

The Greek says;

Aggelous te tous me teresantas ten heauton archen alla apolipontas to idion oiketerion eis krisin megales hemeras desmois aidiois hupo zophon tetereken.

Literal Translation:

Messengers besides the no ones-keeping[keeping] the of-selves[of-themselves] original[Sovereignty] but from-lacking[leaving] the own home-place[habitation] into judging of-great day to-bonds un-perceived[imperceptible] under gloom has-kept[he-has-kept]

The term estate is translated from arches, which means Sovereignty.  They left their sovereignty, and habitation - rebelling...Hence they sinned.

The same would go for 2 Peter 2:4

These same angels having been sent to Tartarus.

[Molly]

But this could easily refer to the war in Heaven, not the union of Angel and Man.

Yes, but--

You have the war in heaven--what caused the war?

And they are cast out of heaven--to where?  It says he's cast out into the earth.

 It says their crime is that they left their first estate--what does that mean?  That's a willful disobedience--different from being thrown out--they left of their own free will.

Also, when does this war in heaven happen?



7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


--Rev 12

[thinktank]

What puzzle me is why did God call fallen angels sons?

Where else does God call fallen angels his sons. Sons mean a close relationship and that's why Im edging towards the idea that the sons of God are the sons of seth who comitted a gruesome abominable act, and caused an evil curse in the blood. For the giants are very human like, except for being large and having 6 fingers.

[Lefein]

When, or what caused that war I don't know.

Chronologically, it would have had to have been before Mankind even had daughters to begin with - Satan and his angels fell together, he pulled a third of them out of Heaven with him...at least according to Tradition, and most scholarly knowledge.

That means that these angels would not have been called Sons of God after their rebellion, they would have been called what they where - fallen.  That also means, that the Sons of God could not have caused the War in Heaven by their actions, it doesn't fit chronologically.

We can't assume from scriptures, or theory that the union of Angels and Men (if indeed it was Angels), caused the War in Heaven, and we can't really even assume that these Angels are the ones who were chained in Tartarus - back in Genesis it isn't even called a sin what they did, it is stated in an oddly cold fashion...and in another way, it is almost stated nobly!

"And their children were men of renown!"

Where else does God call fallen angels his sons. Sons mean a close relationship and that's why Im edging towards the idea that the sons of God are the sons of seth who comitted a gruesome abominable act, and caused an evil curse in the blood. For the giants are very human like, except for being large and having 6 fingers.

But it isn't mentioned as being sinful, let alone abominable.  Not that I've seen, correct me if I'm wrong.

Remember, the children are not responsible for the sins of their fathers, and neither are the fathers responsible for the sins of their children.  

The Blood Curse, I am curious about this, would you provide some scriptures to point me to this teaching?  I've never seen anything on it before...Then again I tend to shy away from the Nephilim...too much "UFO talk"...

...Speaking of the whole Angels and Men thing...I wrote a short story on the event...I might share it...lol >_>

Of course, I wrote it pre-UR.

[Molly]

What puzzle me is why did God call fallen angels sons?

Where else does God call fallen angels his sons. Sons mean a close relationship and that's why Im edging towards the idea that the sons of God are the sons of seth who comitted a gruesome abominable act, and caused an evil curse in the blood. For the giants are very human like, except for being large and having 6 fingers.

they are called sons of God in Genesis 6, and I think the same group are called sons of God in Job.  I think they are the elohyim, 'gods.'  I realize the New Testament calls them 'angels.'   David calls them 'gods' in Psalm 82.

The problem with their being sons of Seth--why do you get giants who are mighty men?

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

--Psalm 82

[Beloved Servant]

My 2¢

The war in "heaven" is between my ears until:
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
                                                                      Luke 10:18

[Molly]

When, or what caused that war I don't know.

Chronologically, it would have had to have been before Mankind even had daughters to begin with - Satan and his angels fell together, he pulled a third of them out of Heaven with him...at least according to Tradition, and most scholarly knowledge.

Remember though in Job, Satan is still going between heaven and earth.  He's part of the council of gods--the congregation of the mighty-- that come before God.


6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan  also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
 
      Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
--Job 1



 6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

--Job 1



Angels=sons of God


And, remember Jesus tells the disciples he saw Satan fall from heaven.  Is he just making a random statement or is the context important?

My computer is broken.  It jumps all over the place while I'm typing. Also, I can't show you the Hebrew.

[Molly]

My 2¢

The war in "heaven" is between my ears until:
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
                                                                      Luke 10:18

Yes, but neither does that contradict that it is a spiritual war between heavenly beings and rulers of wickedness in high places.

Do you think the Satanists are just pretending?

[thinktank]

But this could easily refer to the war in Heaven, not the union of Angel and Man.

Yes, but--

You have the war in heaven--what caused the war?

And they are cast out of heaven--to where?  It says he's cast out into the earth.

 It says their crime is that they left their first estate--what does that mean?  That's a willful disobedience--different from being thrown out--they left of their own free will.

Also, when does this war in heaven happen?



7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


--Rev 12

The war in rev 12 is about Jesus Christ. Before ths war in heaven took place Satan was free to go to and fro and in addition approach the throne of God. He did this on a regular basis in order to condemn the saints of their sins. Read the book of Job.

But after Jesus was born, we now have an advocate with the father so Satan is no longer allowed into heaven, hence the war takes place, michael casts him out and bans him from entering the heaven of God or the heaven of heavens.

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (A new power given to man)18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Notice here that after the war takes place and Satan is cast upon the earth, these verses proclaim the following

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So when did salvation and the kingdom of Christ come upon the earth? and when did we have the blood to overcome?

The time that Jesus Christ came to the earth.

So the war in heaven has nothing to do with the events of Genesis giants. Because Satan could freely enter Gods throne during Jobs time, which was a long time period after Genesis.


The tail that drew the third and cast them to the earth, could be the devil destroying a third of Gods angels, rather than recruiting them, for it does not sound like a recruitment, casting down to the earth, rather it sounds more like the devil smashed them down, but this last sentence is just something I thought of, but I belive the rest I said lines up perfectly with scripture.

[Lefein]

The War in Heaven doesn't mean that the "Watchers" (as the angels who mated with humans tend to be called), were the cause.

As for the sons of God gathering - it says "and Satan came also among them";

You might say something along this way.

"And Congress gathered themselves before the President, and Rush Limbaugh came also among them."

Rush Limbaugh...thankfully...isn't a member of Congress, is he?  

[Molly]

I like that TT--except what caused the war?

Clearly Satan and his angels are in rebellion.  This war is just the final victory in heaven.

I would suggest the rebellion is already ongoing when Satan appears in the garden in Genesis 3 and goes for Adam's jugular.

[thinktank]

My 2¢

The war in "heaven" is between my ears until:
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
                                                                      Luke 10:18

Yes, but neither does that contradict that it is a spiritual war between heavenly beings and rulers of wickedness in high places.

Do you think the Satanists are just pretending?

he's still prince of the air, remember where comest thou? Asked God to Satan.

To and fro the earth, so he can still fly about in the sky, perhaps even go to outer space called heavens in scripture, but cannot enter Gods heavenly throne or mount sion heavenly Jerusalem the future home of the saints.

[Molly]

Think of this--

If what TT and Beloved Servant say is right about the timing of the war coincident with the kingdom--

then, the war was won in heaven for us.

Are we the host who will win it on earth?

[Molly]

Rush Limbaugh...thankfully...isn't a member of Congress, is he? 

No LOL!  He's a radio talk show host.

[Molly]

My 2¢

The war in "heaven" is between my ears until:
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
                                                                      Luke 10:18

Yes, but neither does that contradict that it is a spiritual war between heavenly beings and rulers of wickedness in high places.

Do you think the Satanists are just pretending?

he's still prince of the air, remember where comest thou? Asked God to Satan.

To and fro the earth, so he can still fly about in the sky, perhaps even go to outer space called heavens in scripture, but cannot enter Gods heavenly throne or mount sion heavenly Jerusalem the future home of the saints.

Yes, but my point is the Satanists aren't pretending any more than we are pretending.  They are tapping into an evil power that is real.

Disclaimer: Many here disagree with me.  Maybe everyone LOL.

[Lefein]

No LOL!  He's a radio talk show host.

Of course, I knew that. :p

But you kinda get my point with the illustration?

[thinktank]

I like that TT--except what caused the war?

Clearly Satan and his angels are in rebellion.  This war is just the final victory in heaven.

I would suggest the rebellion is already ongoing when Satan appears in the garden in Genesis 3 and goes for Adam's jugular.

You mean when did Satan rebel?

That's a tough question. I mean it appears the serpent just appears in the garden.

What if this right there is the rebellion, that lucifer turns into the serpent and at that point decides that he want's to be as God and therefore promotes this also to Eve.
It is very possible that this is when the iniquity entered his heart, for there is no other place I know of where he could have rebelled.

I am not sure though where do the devils angels fit into this, for in rev 12 the dragon fought with his angels, so we know he had his own angels but I am not sure if these angels being the same as the third that he cast upon the earth with his tail.

[Molly]

No LOL!  He's a radio talk show host.

Of course, I knew that. :p

But you kinda get my point with the illustration?

Not really.  I think Job shows us that Satan is one of the 'sons of God'--Hebrew elohiym--also known as angels.

Although, Heiser says it is used here as a title--like the word 'prosecutor'--

[Molly]

What if this right there is the rebellion, that lucifer turns into the serpent and at that point decides that he want's to be as God and therefore promotes this also to Eve.
It is very possible that this is when the iniquity entered his heart, for there is no other place I know of where he could have rebelled.

Could be, yes.

Or, if you believe in the gap theory--could be in the gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.