Author Topic: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED  (Read 44594 times)

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Quaesitor

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #250 on: September 11, 2010, 08:26:55 PM »
Yuck I hate cities, they are not a good place for righteousness, darkness tends to dominate them, that's another reason why the world is getting darker, to many cities. Some people say population control is the answer, but I don't like that, it's a bit "global conspiracy". The answer would be for people to pray for more land and for God to water the deserts, as his promise is that if the inhabitants turn away from unrightoeusness then the lord will heal the land.

I agree, since I moved from a big City of 2 millions+ pop tu a small rural village, I've been in a peace I never knew before. I find that it was harder to concentrate in the city, so much buzzing...
Now I'm at peace growing my veggies and buying my meat from a local famer and a brother in Christ.(I like to think he blessed his cows before killing them) :laughing7:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #251 on: September 11, 2010, 08:42:40 PM »
 :cloud9: @ Micah....God built A city, a city made without hands. Jerusalem below being the type and shadow. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #252 on: September 11, 2010, 08:48:25 PM »
:cloud9: @ Micah....God built A city, a city made without hands. Jerusalem below being the type and shadow. Blessings....

heavenly jerusalem,  mount zion, Gods holy mountain that will descend upon the earth as witnessed in Johns book. This will be the only city upon the earth not built my mankind.

Do you think God will provide smoking rooms ?  Even as resurected saints I think that some smokers will still want to smoke  :laughing7:

Offline willieH

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #253 on: September 11, 2010, 09:40:25 PM »
willieH: Hi Molly...  :banana:

Great comment:

Shawn let's try to find a common language here so we know what we are talking about.  Do you really think these people are 'scientists'?  They are guessing, making stuff up, making arbitrary claims, building on that more arbitrary claims.  They have no idea if these bones they are finding have any relationship at all to the man at the mall.  This is worse than religion because they are pretending to be something they are not.  They are just telling pretty stories to get their grant money, may their names be forgotten by posterity.

Excellent!  :thumbsup:

...willieH   :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #254 on: September 11, 2010, 09:53:13 PM »
I keep trying to catch up on reading everything I've missed on this thread, then I go do something else.  When I get back it has surged ahead.  Back around pages 6-7 I wanted to post this...

Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world (cosmos.)"  The world is this outer realm our physical bodies are in, the orderly arrangement of things in it, specially the values and governments of carnal men and the effect all this has on our minds, even if we are spiritual men.

John 18:36 (Concordant Literal Translation)
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My deputies, also, would have contended, lest I should be given up to the Jews. Yet now is My kingdom not hence."

Now it seems a little out of place.  I'll keep reading and try to get back to y'all.

James

 :giveheart:  At last, ...a SPIRITUAL post from an "inward" man!   :happyclap: 

Be careful though brother... the "outwards" will certainly give you a ration for it!

Don't apologize for your input James... It is a welcome addition to this "discussion"... and quite timely I might add!  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline shawn

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #255 on: September 12, 2010, 02:50:00 AM »
Lefein, I'm glad you actually read the post and responded.  I would hate for him to be offended when I didn't answer.  Sounds like you and I see creation in many ways eye to eye.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #256 on: September 12, 2010, 03:20:02 AM »

In the beginning God created the heavens, and the earth.

This verse contains, according to my understanding - all the billions of years of the construction of our universe.  The heavens, is not just our "atmosphere" but the whole vast realm of space and beyond full of stars, nebulae, and phenomenon.  No days are mentioned in this verse, not even any mention of time itself.

lefein


When you look at that verse it must be a declaration of what happened, for after we have verses that go into detail where the firnament of the heavens etc are created. It states that after these things are created the first day passes. So if time were not important then why does God state that it took a day? Why the confusion?. Time is part of the scriptures and it's important to not allow scientific findings to undermine the scriptures. :2c:

Offline Lefein

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #257 on: September 12, 2010, 03:41:37 AM »
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When you look at that verse it must be a declaration of what happened, for after we have verses that go into detail where the firnament of the heavens etc are created. It states that after these things are created the first day passes.

Where is your proof? (for lack of a better phrase); that Gen 1:1 had to be included with the first day account of creating light?  As a 24 hour period?

And even if Gen 1:1 is some how meshed with the first day - then why can't it look like this?



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So if time were not important then why does God state that it took a day?


Artistic rendering - and the colourful manner of writing that is often used in eastern writing.  Have you read all the things written on the main portion of this site concerning how much of what is used to support Ultimate Reconciliation that talk about the colourful eastern hyperbole?

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Why the confusion?.

Because the interpretation is wrong.  The YEC are so busy looking at the garment of the written word, that they are missing the Spirit of Truth who is wearing it.

The word Cat, means the feline animal of varying shapes, sizes, species, and meows.  If we get too caught up in the semantics of the word Cat, with one party trying to limit it to mean only Lion, while they other party tries to limit it to mean only tea-cup sized maine coon...They both miss the whole point of the word Cat, which is just a garment-covering used to present the concept of a feline entity.

Day is likewise, in this case.

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Time is part of the scriptures and it's important to not allow scientific findings to undermine the scriptures.

It is infinitely more important not to allow private interpretation to undermine The Spirit of Truth, for the sake of garment based argument.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 03:46:39 AM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Doug

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #258 on: September 12, 2010, 03:46:24 AM »

The key point is, that it doesn't matter how old the Universe is, or our planet; if the universe, and our planet are indeed Old, it does not disprove God in the least, because The Heavens, and The Earth where created already - prior to the six days verses that detail ordering a primitive, uninhabitable earth into a livable one.


Exodus 20:11 says in six days, all things in heaven and earth are created.

All things would include the distant galaxies, as well as all the lava flows on earth. It includes sediments, layers of salt and gypsum, pebbles, fossils, great dinosaurs, rift valleys, great and small faults in the earth's crust, mountains, glaciers, oceans, coral reefs, beaches, lakes, rivers and streams, and the fish in them. And clouds, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, day and night, seasons, all are created by God.

All things includes supernovas, the craters on the moon, meteorites, sand dunes, ripples in the desert sand, sunsets, and rainbows, and the imprint of raindrops on the ground, and snowflakes. The sound of thunder, or of a waterfall, and the song of a bird, frost on the ground after a cold night, ice on a pond, or a lake, all of these are included in the six days. The newborn baby is a creation of God too, isn't it? And scripture says we are ourselves the creations of God:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


All of God's work of creation is included in the six days; that's what it says. We look forward to entering the future "rest" which is pictured by the sabbath day. [Hebrews 4:10-11]

Doug


Offline thinktank

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #259 on: September 12, 2010, 04:02:05 AM »

Artistic rendering - and the colourful manner of writing that is often used in eastern writing.  Have you read all the things written on the main portion of this site concerning how much of what is used to support Ultimate Reconciliation that talk about the colourful eastern hyperbole?


I would'nt call Genesis colourful, with it's genealogy and all, I don't think it's wise to be poetic when dealing with the creation of the world. I would call the book of Job colourful or the psalms I'd call lamentations "greyish"  :laughing7:


Where is your proof, for lack of a better phrase; that Gen 1:1 had to be included with the first day account of creating light?

And even if Gen 1:1 is some how meshed with the first day - then why can't it look like this?
[/color]

I can see this point better for now it makes sense as opposed to ignoring the other scriptures which says they were created in a day, but in answer I'll say this.

How can the heavens and earth be created if the substance of light has yet to be created?

The substance of light can be found everywhere, so without this substance, how can the universe or heaven and earth be created?

Secondly, if Genesis 1:1 states God created a heaven and an earth, why does God decide to create them again in the following chapters?

Thirdly (Not sure what you belive concerning this) the scriptures declare that God did not create the earth in vain but created it to be inhabited
So where in scripture is any type of animal, creature, man or angel created and placed in this pre Adamic world?

Fourth if there is no animal, angel or human then how can there be a rebellion that took place called the darkness on the face of the deep?

Fifth if there is no rebellion that took place, then why does a perfect God create a inperfect world that he then must create or recreate again, because his first earth ran out of gasoline or some kind of breakdown  :dontknow: ?

sixth if God is incapable of creating a perfect world before rebellion, then how can we trust him and his word?


« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 04:18:55 AM by thinktank »

Offline Lefein

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #260 on: September 12, 2010, 04:28:43 AM »
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can see this point better for now it makes sense as opposed to ignoring the other scriptures which says they were created in a day, but in answer I'll say this.

First, I'm not ignoring the word "Day" I'm dividing the Spirit of Truth, from the garment.  Day, Ium, Yom, does not have to mean the 24-hour solar cycle of Terra.

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How can the heavens and earth be created if the substance of light has yet to be created?

The original Hebrew says: Iei aur u'iei aur

literally: He shall become light, and he is becoming light.

It is possible that the Earth became lit, that light passed through the "waters" which had yet to be ordered into the liquid ocean, and atmopshere.

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The substance of light can be found everywhere, so without this substance, how can the universe or heaven and earth be created?

Because Light is a part of The Heavens (Spacial phenomenon, the laws of physics, etc; waves/particles/energy, light is energy etc), if you want to get technical.  Light is not a simple substance, like an element.  Light is a highly multi-faceted electromagnetic wavelength comprising of both things visible to the human eye, and invisible.

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Secondly, if Genesis 1:1 states God created a heaven and an earth, why does God decide to create them again in the following chapters?

He doesn't.  It is no more a new creation of Earth, that it is a new creation of Man when the Bible goes from Genesis 1:26 to Genesis 2:4 The Adam scriptures.

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Thirdly (Not sure what you belive concerning this) the scriptures declare that God did not create the earth in vain but created it to be inhabited

And he did exactly that, after his own pace, time, and manner.

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So where in scripture is any type of animal, creature, man or angel created and placed in this pre Adamic world?

...What do you mean by this?  Does God have to automatically have every kind of living creature live alongside Adam in order for God to be real?

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Fourth if there is no animal, angel or human then how can there be a rebellion that took place called the darkness on the face of the deep?

First: When in the Genesis account does it say the angels where created?

Second: Where is the account of the rebellion in the face of the deep?

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Fifth if there is no rebellion that took place, then why does a perfect God create a inperfect world that he then must create or recreate again, because his first earth ran out of gasoline or some kind of breakdown   ?

We've veered off topic here.

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sixth if God is incapable of creating a perfect world before rebellion, then how can we trust him and his word?

Our idea of perfection doesn't necessarily have to mean "instant".  Are we not perfect already, yet going through sanctification?

Why does the Earth and Heaven have to be created Ex'Nihilo nigh instantaniously in order to be perfect?

Is not God himself the one who determines what is perfect or not?  Or is it our private interpretations?
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #261 on: September 12, 2010, 05:14:43 AM »
First, I'm not ignoring the word "Day" I'm dividing the Spirit of Truth, from the garment.  Day, Ium, Yom, does not have to mean the 24-hour solar cycle of Terra.

Not saying you did. I personally think day means a thousand years.



The original Hebrew says: Iei aur u'iei aur

literally: He shall become light, and he is becoming light.


God is light he allways existed. The substance of light was yet to be created until the first day.

It is possible that the Earth became lit, that light passed through the "waters" which had yet to be ordered into the liquid ocean, and atmopshere.


Quote
The substance of light can be found everywhere, so without this substance, how can the universe or heaven and earth be created?

Because Light is a part of The Heavens (Spacial phenomenon, the laws of physics, etc; waves/particles/energy, light is energy etc), if you want to get technical.  Light is not a simple substance, like an element.  Light is a highly multi-faceted electromagnetic wavelength comprising of both things visible to the human eye, and invisible.



thank you, there, your original question is answered by yourself. If light is part of the heavens how could God create the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 if he did not yet declare
let there be light in Genesis 1:3

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening [1] and the morning were the first day.

So this chapter says God creates light and he divides the light from the darkness and this process took him the first day.

Now that God has light he can now begin creating in the following verses.




He doesn't.  It is no more a new creation of Earth, that it is a new creation of Man when the Bible goes from Genesis 1:26 to Genesis 2:4 The Adam scriptures.


Not sure what you mean, are you agreeing with me then that God did not create a earth in Genesis 1:1 and that is was a general statement rather than a actual creation event?



...What do you mean by this?  Does God have to automatically have every kind of living creature live alongside Adam in order for God to be real?


To be real to us revealed through his scriptures, there simply is no verse saying that God created a pre adamic race and if Adam is truly his first creation, then it means that no creature existed before Adam that died and rebelled against Yahuwa

First: When in the Genesis account does it say the angels where created?

Here

Genesis 1
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, [5] and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

and Genesis 2

2Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.


Second: Where is the account of the rebellion in the face of the deep?

No where, this is what the gap theory states.


We've veered off topic here.

It's difficultt to know what you belive, so I addressed this.



Our idea of perfection doesn't necessarily have to mean "instant".  Are we not perfect already, yet going through sanctification?


The time aspect is not my aim, but rather the idea that God created an inperfect world in Genesis 1:1 which then needed to be created again in subsequent verses. There is no logical reason why God would create a world and then ceate it again, isnt that what you are saying?

Typically those people say that a rebellion took place which destroyed the earth and so God needed to create again, but you don't seem to have that view, so I ask why would God create the earth in Genesis 1:1 and then create it again if that which he created in Genesis 1:1 was already perfect?


Why does the Earth and Heaven have to be created Ex'Nihilo nigh instantaniously in order to be perfect?

Is not God himself the one who determines what is perfect or not?  Or is it our private interpretations?

IT's declared in the scripture what perfection is, it is also built into our dna that we know what good and evil is and more importantly the holy spirit  teaches us what perfection is.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #262 on: September 12, 2010, 06:11:36 AM »
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God is light he allways existed. The substance of light was yet to be created until the first day.

Let there be light - "Let the electromagnetic wave-lengths pass through the vapourous cloud that surrounds this primitive ball of molten crust below"

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The substance of light can be found everywhere, so without this substance, how can the universe or heaven and earth be created?

In the beginning God created the Heavens (space, phenomenae, etc), and the Earth (Primitive Earth)...Universe.

six days = artistic ordering the uninhabitable ball of molten crust that is the primitive earth into a livable habitat - Life is created as well.

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thank you, there, your original question is answered by yourself. If light is part of the heavens how could God create the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 if he did not yet declare
let there be light in Genesis 1:3

If God is light, and has always existed why does he have to declare "Let there be light" to begin with at all?

But I'm beginning to lose track of where the discussion is going I think...

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Not sure what you mean, are you agreeing with me then that God did not create a earth in Genesis 1:1 and that is was a general statement rather than a actual creation event?

Genesis 1:26 is a general statement.

Genesis 2:4 is the detailed "zoom in"

It doesn't detract from Genesis 1:26, just because there is a zoom in from Genesis 2:4

Genesis 1:1 is similar, but different.  Genesis 1:1 is the creation of the foundations of Earth, and the Heavens with which it travels.

Genesis's account of the six days, is a "zoom in" of sorts, but not of Genesis 1:1.  It is an artistically rendered account of the Primitive Earth becoming through the handiwork of God - Habitable Terra.

According to my understanding anyway.

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To be real to us revealed through his scriptures, there simply is no verse saying that God created a pre adamic race and if Adam is truly his first creation, then it means that no creature existed before Adam that died and rebelled against Yahuwa

The Bible is a garment through which The Spirit of Truth reveals himself...But it is not The Spirit of Truth Himself.

I never said there was any pre-Adam race either.  Adam is not his first creation.  The Universe is, unless he made the angels first.

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Genesis 1
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, [5] and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

and Genesis 2

2Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Orion's belt, Leo, Scorpio, Pices, and the sun are angels?

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No where, this is what the gap theory states.

Not the theory I ascribe to.

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It's difficultt to know what you belive, so I addressed this.

It is better to keep it that way perhaps.  Prevents assumptions about me. :)

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The time aspect is not my aim, but rather the idea that God created an inperfect world in Genesis 1:1 which then needed to be created again in subsequent verses. There is no logical reason why God would create a world and then ceate it again, isnt that what you are saying?

I never said he created an imperfect earth and had to create it again.

I said, and only said that God created the foundations of Earth in Gen 1:1, and then finished it in the following account.

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Typically those people say that a rebellion took place which destroyed the earth and so God needed to create again, but you don't seem to have that view, so I ask why would God create the earth in Genesis 1:1 and then create it again if that which he created in Genesis 1:1 was already perfect?

Because God does not change, and God seems to work through processes.  Like Sanctification of the already perfect ("saved") saint.  Its a process, (s)he's already perfect in the eyes of God, but is still going through the process of becoming what God wants her/him to look like.

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IT's declared in the scripture what perfection is, it is also built into our dna that we know what good and evil is and more importantly the holy spirit  teaches us what perfection is.

The scriptures only ever say, as far as I know - that perfection is what God says is perfect.

Interesting note, though off to the side, God only said creation was "Good", but he never said "Perfect".
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #263 on: September 12, 2010, 06:56:14 AM »
 :cloud9: Why couldn't the light that God is, be dramatically different from the light He created in the Genesis account? Everything in this realm is a type and shadow of something greater, and even incomprehensible from our present state of being, IMO. The revelation we receive is still not EXPERIENCING that which we are being shown, unless He elects to let us do so. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #264 on: September 12, 2010, 10:38:05 AM »
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting[AIDIOS] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

When did this happen?  We're not really told anything much about this, it's just referenced briefly.


Another translation:

6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal[AIDIOS] chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—


Another reference--Peter knew about this event

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell[TARTURUS] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

--2 Peter 2:4


Tarturus is defined by e-sword as the deepest abyss of hades.


 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
--Gen 1


[the face] "of the deep"

H8415
תּהם    תּהום
tehôm  tehôm
teh-home', teh-home'
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): - deep (place), depth.



And we see this same happening in Revelation to Satan

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit[ABYSS] and a great chain in his hand.

2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

--Rev 20



The angels left their own habitation and did what?

Is it related to this passage?

4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

--Gen 6



The Nephilim would have been wiped out by the flood, but we see the problem might continue after the flood.   The same word--nephilim-- is used in post-flood passages.

Numbers 13:33
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.


"giants"

H5303
נפל    נפיל
nephıyl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.


H5307
נפל
nâphal
naw-fal'
A primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitively or causatively, literally or figuratively): - be accepted, cast (down, self, [lots], out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell (-ing), fugitive, have [inheritamce], inferior, be judged [by mistake for H6419], lay (along), (cause to) lie down, light (down), be (X hast) lost, lying, overthrow, overwhelm, perish, present (-ed, -ing), (make to) rot, slay, smite out, X surely, throw down.


Does Jesus reference this same problem when he talks about how it will be in the last days [of the age]?

Matthew 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,



question:

If God covered the earth with water in the flood, wiping out all living, couldn't he have done it before [gap]?  If he is creating a new heaven and new earth in Revelation, couldn't he have done that before?

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
--Rev 21

"new"

G2537
καινός
kainos
kahee-nos'
Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): - new.


I'm going to take a look at the book of Enoch which apparently is still canon in the eastern church.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 12:36:35 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #265 on: September 12, 2010, 02:01:25 PM »
I just want to put this here before I lose it.  Notice the language that he uses.



7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof black; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.


8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make black over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.




12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall; the terrible of the nations are they all; and they shall spoil the pride of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.

13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside many waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them.

14 Then will I make their waters to settle, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord GOD.

15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate and waste, a land destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD.

--Eze 32

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #266 on: September 12, 2010, 05:49:08 PM »
 :cloud9: Good post Molly, and good question. This is a very interesting topic we have never covered in depth before, and could answer a lot of questions. I hope to have time to dig deeper in it myself for some answers.

And: to chime in with what Jabcat said, will ALL the parties affected negatively by this thread, please take a step back before further sanctions are warranted?

We are brethren and try to maintain a Tentmaker FAMILY attitude about one another on here, which IMO is what makes Tentmaker special from the other boards where food fights and insults are the "norm". I would not stay on such a board personally, which is one of the reasons why I am here.

I think most of us in our lives all had a disgruntled father, uncle, brother, mother, sister, aunt, ect. around the Thanksgiving table, but at least in MY experience we were told to overlook them and kill them with kindness, BECAUSE THEY WERE FAMILY.

We did NOT (well, most of us anyway  :winkgrin: ), carve them up instead of the turkey, and bury them in the backyard. Nuff said?  :girlheart:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #267 on: September 12, 2010, 07:31:46 PM »



Genesis opens wondrously, first announcing a creation, then showing it marred, and then a restoration. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." As for God, His work is perfect. If He created, His work must have been good. And yet the next thing is a darkened, chaotic world... for "the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." In some way, not revealed, God's work had been destroyed. Contrast this statement of a chaotic condition with the following from Isa 45:18: "For thus says the Lord Who created the heavens, God Himself Who formed the earth and made it, Who established it and created it NOT A WORTHLESS WASTE; He formed it to be inhabited." Is this a contradiction between Isaiah and Moses? That question can best be answered by a careful study of the first two verses of Genesis.

The first contents itself with a simple statement of a consummated act: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Not a word about the method, manner, means or procedure of creation, and nothing of its result. The second verse carries a tremendous suggestion of collapse in its touching picture of the Spirit of God brooding over the watery face of the formless void! Let us see what a careful word-study of this second verse will yield.

In the King James Version the text begins: "And the earth was..." This word (and) in the Hebrew text is also translated "but," or "moreover." Thus in the Septuagint version of the Scripture the text begins: "But the earth had become..." and this is the sense of the Vulgate as well. The second word to be noted is the one translated in the English Bible "was." The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became," so the word "was" is always used to carry out the sense of "became." It is so used in describing Lot's wife, who "became a pillar of salt." She was not a pillar of salt to begin with, but the became such by her disobedience. This phrase then literally reads, "But the earth had become... tohu v'bohu!" This Phrase, "tohu v'bohu," is translated in the American revision "waste and void." In the King James Version it reads, "without form and void," but the sense of this phrase is even stronger than that. The Septuagint says, "But the earth had become unfurnished and empty," the Vulgate says "dreary and empty," and the Aramaic makest the strongest and clearest statement of all: "And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited!" Hebrew scholars have said that this is the clearest statement of all, as the term "tohu v'bohu" literally means "desolation succeeding previous life."

The prophet Jeremiah tells us what happened to that pre-historic world, what happened to the cities, how great areas of the world convulsed, the earth rolled over, and the tops rolled over the bottom as the mountains trembled and the hills removed. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger" Jer. 4:23-26. Ask any geological engineer what coal beds are, how they were formed, and you will understand clearly the mighty convolutions described by the inspired prophet. A brother told of his visit down in deep mines in the Eastern part of the U.S., over a mile beneath the earth's surface. He looked at ferns petrified in the solid coal, forty feet long, and over them are mountains of dirt and rock and stone; and they have been folded over, and the compression of the astronomical impact of the influence that came, by whole areas of the earth heaving and rolling, buried those ferms to make this coal and this coal era.

The second verse of Genesis, then, literally should read, "But the earth had become desolate, ruined and unfurnished, covered with water and shrouded with darkness. And the Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters." Let us clearly keep in mind that all this is prior to the six days of creation. Isaiah says that God created the earth not a waste and Moses states that the earth nevertheless had become a waste. God, then, in the six days, restores that earth, not originally made dark by Him, yet now in darkness; and on this ruined earth His work proceeds UNTIL HIS IMAGE IS SEEN, and He can rest there. — Eby, ECHOES FROM EDEN, Part XIX

Offline Molly

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #268 on: September 12, 2010, 10:13:47 PM »
wow Eby believes in the gap.  Thank you, Beloved Servant.


..he created it [the earth] not in vain...[Isa 45:18]


"in vain"

H8414
תּהוּ
tôhû
to'-hoo
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.



...he formed it to be inhabited.. [Isa 45:18]


inhabited is the opposite of

H922
בּהוּ
bôhû
bo'-hoo
From an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, that is, (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: - emptiness, void.


So something caused this to happen--

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form,[TOHU] and void;[BOHU]


That makes a lot of sense to me.


I beheld, and, lo, there was no man [ADAM]..

--Jer 4


...and there was not a man[ADAM] to till the ground.

--Gen 2:5


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #269 on: September 12, 2010, 10:24:35 PM »


At your service, Molly!

We're family!


Offline Molly

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #270 on: September 12, 2010, 10:34:50 PM »
I think it has something to do with the fallen angels[the watchers] and maybe their offspring the Nephilim ['the fallen ones'], but I doubt Eby is going to go there. :laughing7:





"Nephilim" (נְפִילִים) probably derives from the Hebrew root npl (נָפַל), "to fall" which also includes "to cause to fall" and "to kill, to ruin". The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon gives the meaning as "giants"[1] Robert Baker Girdlestone[2] argued the word comes from the Hiphil causative stem. Adam Clarke took it as passive, "fallen", "apostates". Ronald Hendel states that it is a passive form "ones who have fallen", equivalent grammatically to paqid "one who is appointed" (i.e. overseer), asir, "one who is bound", (i.e. prisoner) etc.[3][4]

--wikipedia.com "nephilim"

Offline thinktank

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #271 on: September 12, 2010, 10:41:57 PM »
...and there was not a man[ADAM] to till the ground.

--Gen 2:5


This reminds me of a revelation I received. I think I'll post it on the other thread.

But on topic, Adam was already created in Genesis 1, after the earth was created and the animals etc.

Genesis says God said let there be light. How can the earth be created in Genesis 1:1 and angels etc if light has yet to be created?

How can there be an earth with life upon it if the lord has yet to create a sun, moon and stars?

Also molly, you say that the angels left their habitation and are reserved in chains of darkness, didn't these angels get punished for taking women in the days of Noah?

If there was a rebellious company of angels during the pre gap, then why are these angels reserved in chains of darkness? Satan has not been chained neither did his angels, so I ask the question why are the angels in Noah's day chained in darkness? It must be because they broke the laws of YAH, but Satan somehow manages to wriggle his way through Gods laws and avoid this prison, at least for the time being.
So what I'm saying is that the angels in prison are those who rebelled in Noahs day and not those who supposedly rebelled during the pre gap.

I'm not entirely opposed to the pre gap, but these are some of the issues I have with it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #272 on: September 12, 2010, 11:04:44 PM »
T. Russell wrote: "The incomprehensible darkened and utterly deluded mind of the evolutionist believes that out of the warm slime along the shore of some primordial sea, spontaneously and without cause or guidance, protoplasm arranged itself and evolved into a microbe, or maggot, which squirmed and twisted and reproduced its own species, and then finding use for a tail, developed one.  Later on, one of its still more intelligent offspring concluded that oars, or fins, would be useful, and developed them.  Another, later on, got chased by a hungry brother and, jumping clear of the water, got the idea that the fins further developed would be wings, and liked the new style, so that he stayed out of the water, and then decided that legs and toes would be a convenience and developed them.  Others of the family followed other 'notions,' of which they seemingly had an inexhaustible supply, as evidenced by the great variety of animals we see about us.  However, in due time one of these descendants of the first maggot which had reached the monkey degree of development, got a noble idea before his mind – he said to himself, I will discard my tail, and cease using my hands as feet, and will shed my coat of hair, and will develop a nose and a forehead and a brain with moral and reflective organs.  I will wear tailor-made clothing and a high silk hat, and call myself Charles Darwin, LL.D., and write a record of my evolution!"  The fact is, however, that the probability of life originating from accident or by spontaneous generation is comparable to the probability of an unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing plant.
 :laughing7:


Quote from: TT
Also molly, you say that the angels left their habitation and are reserved in chains of darkness, didn't these angels get punished for taking women in the days of Noah?

If there was a rebellious company of angels during the pre gap, then why are these angels reserved in chains of darkness? Satan has not been chained neither did his angels, so I ask the question why are the angels in Noah's day chained in darkness? It must be because they broke the laws of YAH, but Satan somehow manages to wriggle h
is way through Gods laws and avoid this prison, at least for the time being.

It's a long story, TT. [which I haven't figured out, yet] :happygrin:

I've also been listening to Michael Heiser recently, which helps.

The fallen angels of Gen 6 left their estate [assigned as watchers] and had children with human women; the offspring are called the nephilim [mighty men of old].

If they did anything to cause the gap, or if Satan did anything, that is not revealed to me yet.  But, it has their MO.  They do not want God to succeed in making man a divine being with dominion over the earth.

Yes, I think these watchers are the ones that are chained in tarturus--they will not get out until judgment day.   The lake of fire is 'reserved' for them.

The Nephilim were killed in the flood, [and their interaction with humans might have caused the flood in the first place], but appear again after the flood.  I'm not sure how that happens. Heiser says the Nephilim are immortal and remain on earth as demon spirits.  Are there more fallen angels continuing to pollute the human bloodline after the flood?  Maybe.  I don't know yet.  But remember when they sent spies into the promised land, and the ones who came back with a bad report said, 'Are you kidding me?  They are GIANTS.  We don't have a chance'.  Heiser says those were Nephilim.  He also says that the reason Joshua was told to kill every man woman and child was because these were Nephilim.   Remember in Sodom they were being intimate with strange flesh?  And, then they tried to seduce the angels who came to get Lot?  Those were Nephilim.   Heiser says the Nephilim are the seed of the Nachash referenced in Gen 3.  They are the enemies of man and God.

This is the spiritual warfare that is going on behind the scenes.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #273 on: September 12, 2010, 11:32:00 PM »

The Nephilim were killed in the flood, [and their interaction with humans might have caused the flood in the first place], but appear again after the flood.  I'm not sure how that happens. Heiser says the Nephilim are immortal and remain on earth as demon spirits.  Are there more fallen angels continuing to pollute the human bloodline after the flood?  Maybe.  I don't know yet.  But remember when they sent spies into the promised land, and the ones who came back with a bad report said, 'Are you kidding me?  They are GIANTS.  We don't have a chance'.  Heiser says those were Nephilim.  He also says that the reason Joshua was told to kill every man woman and child was because these were Nephilim.   Remember in Sodom they were being intimate with strange flesh?  And, then they tried to seduce the angels who came to get Lot?  Those were Nephilim.   Heiser says the Nephilim are the seed of the Nachash referenced in Gen 3.  They are the enemies of man and God.


Molly

I thought the Nephilim was the term used for the sons of god. For the giants were the offspring of Nephilim called Annukin, that built huge cities and towers that went up to heaven. These annukins also had offspring and the giants surived Noahs flood, for king David's army must battle with these giants and many of his army fought valiantly against these mighty giants one of whom had 6 toes and earned their honour in the holy bible as a memorial for eternity.

Offline Molly

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Re: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED
« Reply #274 on: September 13, 2010, 01:47:22 AM »
TT

That's basically right.  Here's the Gen 6 scripture--

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

--Gen 6

The sons of God are the 'fallen angels' or the 'gods.' The giants are the nephilim.  They are the offspring of the
'sons of God' who are the fallen angels or gods [of the divine council].

Whether Nephilim gives birth to Nephilim--maybe--it makes sense.  But you need the 'god' to start it.

So later when we see giants after the flood, they are nephilim because that is the word in Hebrew.

"giants"


H5303
נפל    נפיל
nephıyl nephil;
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.


H5307
נפל
nâphal
naw-fal'
A primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitively or causatively, literally or figuratively): - be accepted, cast (down, self, [lots], out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell (-ing), fugitive, have [inheritamce], inferior, be judged [by mistake for H6419], lay (along), (cause to) lie down, light (down), be (X hast) lost, lying, overthrow, overwhelm, perish, present (-ed, -ing), (make to) rot, slay, smite out, X surely, throw down.


"mighty men" is gibborim.

Goliath=9ft9in tall.



A possible connection with fallen-ness may exist in the fallen warriors of Ezekiel 32:27, where a change to the Massoretic Text reading gibborim nophelim (גִּבֹּורִים נֹפְלִים "fallen mighty ones") would produce the reading gibborim nephilim.[5][6]. As the text stands "And they shall not lie with the fallen mighty of the uncircumcised, which are gone down (yaradu יָרְדֽוּ) to the grave with their weapons of war:", but this could become the gibborim nepilim of the uncircumcised.[7] In Genesis 6:4 they are described as "ancient warriors, the men of renown". In Numbers 13:32-33 they are a race of giants native to Canaan. (The idea that there were giants in Canaan when the Israelites arrived is found elsewhere, for example in Amos 2:9, where Yahweh reminds the prophet that he "destroyed the Amorites before you, whose height was as the height of cedar trees").[8] The two are tied together by Genesis 6:4, "the nephilim were on the earth in those days (before the Flood), and also after," and most later compositions and translations, including the Septuagint, therefore understand the nephilim to be giants.[9]

The nature of the nephilim is complicated by the ambiguity[citation needed] of Genesis 6:4, "the sons of God joined with the daughters of humankind, who bore them children - they were the ancient warriors, the men of renown." Richard Hess in The Anchor Bible Dictionary takes it as read that the nephilim are the offspring,[10] as does P. W. Coxon in Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible[11]


--Wikipedia, Nephilim

« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 01:54:07 AM by Molly »