Author Topic: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED  (Read 43821 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #150 on: September 10, 2010, 06:55:09 AM »
I was editing while you posted this.

Check out the scripture from Galatians above..."present evil AGE"...!

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #151 on: September 10, 2010, 06:57:30 AM »
That could be, but IMO, it sure reinforces that he only has his period of time, whatever amount that is that God allows and uses him as a tool.

Offline Molly

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #152 on: September 10, 2010, 07:04:51 AM »
I was editing while you posted this.

Check out the scripture from Galatians above..."present evil AGE"...!

Yes!  We are born out of due time--premature birth.

It explains everything lol.  :laughing7:


So--God is pulling a people out of this present evil age--to vibrate against  the darkness of the present kosmos run by this group--

principalities, ... powers, ... the rulers of the darkness of this world [aion], ... spiritual wickedness in high places. [eph 6]


And, it all started with Adam.


« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 07:21:23 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #153 on: September 10, 2010, 07:14:11 AM »
 :boyheart:

Offline Molly

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #154 on: September 10, 2010, 07:21:47 AM »
9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world [kosmos], and to angels, and to men.



11Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

 12And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

 13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

 14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

 15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

--1 Cor 4

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #155 on: September 10, 2010, 07:25:08 AM »
In this aion, Satan rules the darkness, but we are children of the light.



1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.




17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
--Luke 10
Molly "In this aion, Satan rules the darkness, but we are children of the light."
I never liked the way people give satan (the adversary) so much power just by their speak.
The adversary is ALLOWED to rule...Psa 139:12  Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike to thee.


Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline willieH

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #156 on: September 10, 2010, 07:33:14 AM »
What question?  The Yom/Day of our lord thing was me getting back on topic and into the conversation stream with the rest of the fish.

The why was it included in your post to me?  Next time, start a new post, confusion allieviated.  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Molly

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #157 on: September 10, 2010, 07:41:15 AM »
I think it's great!  Translation, translation, translation!

So many words have been translated as world.  For instance, I don't believe 'creation' is necessarily an accurate equivalent to 'world'. 

I like your work here.

So if accurate, this one would read like this;

For by one man sin entered into the system...Rom. 5:12

To me, it sheds a more understandable and reconcilable light.  So the question can be, what system, which system?  There easily could have been more than one system, just as there are more than one aion.   

Example;  "Who gave himself for our
sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world,
according to the will of God and our Father"

Check out where they got 'world'!!!

aiwnos
aiOnos
G165
n_ Gen Sg m
eon

then they turned it into world...  :eyebrow:

:2c:


Yes, it's almost as if they are purposely trying to obscure the truth.  :mblush:


There is a method to my madness here.  I don't see how we can even begin to talk about dinosaurs and humans without first having some understanding of aions and kosmos.

Problem is, at the moment it's looking impossible to explain this to either scientists or Christians. :icon_king:

world without end [aion aion]--the aions are never going to end--but do we even know when they began?


Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #158 on: September 10, 2010, 07:50:32 AM »
Jackpot!  If we (collective 'we') are not even talking about the correct terms, then....?

Should remind of us something - hades, gehenna, tartarus, forever, eternal, forever and ever, etc., etc., etc.   :thumbsup:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #159 on: September 10, 2010, 07:57:34 AM »
I've read somewhere how many different words aion was translated into - I forget, but it was a very interesting mix  :mshock:.  Some of them were forever, eternal, NEVER!, world, age, etc...

This may be worth a glance;

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStudy/forever.htm

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #160 on: September 10, 2010, 08:02:09 AM »
Quote Molly;  Yes, it's almost as if they are purposely trying to obscure the truth.

Gary A writes;
 
The different forms of the word occur in the New Testament one hundred and ninety-nine times, if I am not mistaken, the noun one hundred and twenty-eight, and the adjective seventy-one times. Bruder's Concordance, latest edition, gives aión one hundred and twenty-six times, and aiónios seventy-two times in the New Testament, instead of the former ninety-four, and the latter sixty-six times, as Professor Stuart, following Knapp's Greek text, declares.

In our common translation the noun is rendered seventy-two times ever, twice eternal, thirty-six times world, seven times never, three times evermore, twice worlds, twice ages, once course, once world without end, and twice it is passed over without any word affixed as a translation of it. The adjective is rendered once ever, forty-two times eternal, three times world, twenty-five times everlasting, and once former ages.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #161 on: September 10, 2010, 08:30:38 AM »
So, again do you guys think man walked with dinosaurs?  If so, what evidence do you have for your belief?  If not, how do you explain the death of dinosaurs before man with a literal interpretation of Genesis?
Speaking with the words one of the most known YECs, Kent Hovind:
The dragons in the story of Arthur are the last last of the dinosaurs. Drawing on Egyptian pottery.

BTW I think crocodiles may be classified as dinosaurs.

Ok, but still do you believe man walked with the T-Rex?  If not, then why?  If so, then why?
Only in Jurassic Park :winkgrin:
If not then: Because they are dead besides perhaps a few (downsized) species.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #162 on: September 10, 2010, 08:46:11 AM »
So, again do you guys think man walked with dinosaurs?  If so, what evidence do you have for your belief?  If not, how do you explain the death of dinosaurs before man with a literal interpretation of Genesis?
Speaking with the words one of the most known YECs, Kent Hovind:
The dragons in the story of Arthur are the last last of the dinosaurs. Drawing on Egyptian pottery.

BTW I think crocodiles may be classified as dinosaurs.

Ok, but still do you believe man walked with the T-Rex?  If not, then why?  If so, then why?

There is no evidence of bones of people that are older than 5000 years old. The oldest tree and city are also around 5000 years old. There are some reports of human bones in affrica that are around 10 thousand years old though.

This website might share some light on the dinosaur

www.answersingenesis.org
10,000 B.C. Semi-permanent agricultural settlements in Old World.  -> Geneis 4:11

10,000–4,000 B.C. Development of settlements into cities and development of skills such as the wheel, pottery, and improved methods of cultivation in Mesopotamia and elsewhere. -> Genesis 4:17
5500–3000 B.C.
Predynastic Egyptian cultures develop (5500–3100 B.C.); begin using agriculture (c. 5000 B.C.). Earliest known civilization arises in Sumer (4500–4000 B.C.). Earliest recorded date in Egyptian calendar (4241 B.C.).

Genesis 4:22 Bronze age.

Just a rough outline. I once did a little work on comparing archeology to the Bible but it needs far more work to be accurate....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #163 on: September 10, 2010, 08:46:27 AM »
This is interesting.   This guy mentions the gap theory.



THE MYSTERY OF THE AGES

By

Bertrand L. Comparet

It is amazing how much there is in the Bible, which is not even known to the most devout Christians. It is concealed from them by the many mistranslations in the commonly used King James Bible. Because of these mistranslations, many false doctrines have developed among people who faithfully believe what they have read, not knowing that what they read is sometimes incorrect.

One of these errors, which has misled many, is the mistranslation of the Greek word aion, meaning an age, as everlasting, eternal, etc. For example, we see many places where the King James Bible speaks of everlasting life and many others where it speaks of eternal life. Some fine, devout people have worked up elaborate doctrines about the supposed difference between everlasting life and eternal life.

Would it shock you to learn that the Bible makes no such distinction at all? The New Testament is where we find these references. Almost all of our English New Testaments are translated from ancient manuscripts, written in the Greek language. In Greek, aion, commonly called aeon in English, means an age, a period of time of long, but indefinite duration. The Greek word aionios commonly called aeonian, in English means, to the age, to the end of the age.

If you will look it up in a good concordance every reference to everlasting life, you will find that in every case the word translated everlasting, is this Greek word aionios, meaning to the end of the age. Now also look up every reference to eternal life. You will see that in every case but one, this also is the same Greek word aionios. The translators simply got tired of using the same English word and thought it made a better literary style to sometimes use the word everlasting and sometimes the word eternal. Where do you now find the elaborate distinction between the two kinds of life? Surely not in the Bible, only in the mistranslations.

The Bible deals with time in terms of aeons, or ages, let's find out more about them. The Bible tells us that the ages had a beginning, for it speaks of times before them. For example Hebrews 1:2 speaks of Yahshua, through whom Yahweh made the ages. Yes, I know that the King James Bible says made the worlds, but in the original Greek it says, made the ages. I Corinthians 2:7 speaks of a secret which Yahweh foreordained before the ages to our glory. II Timothy 1:9 speaks of the grace of Yahweh that was given us in Yahshua before the times of the ages.

However long an aeon or age may be, it also has an end. Matthew 24:3 tells of the disciples asking Yahshua, "Tell us, when shall these be; and what is the sign of Thy presence, and of the full end of the age?" In I Corinthians 10:11 Paul tells us the scriptures were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come.

The Bible speaks of ages in the plural, so there are several of them. How many? There must be at least six of them we are living in one. In the past, there must have been two others, for in Colossians 1:26 it speaks of the secret that has been hidden from the ages. There must be at least two more in the future. Ephesians 2:7 tells us that Yahweh has raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places, "that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Yahshua".

Past ages have been ended by terrific cataclysms or other occurrences, which definitely mark the beginning of a new age. Genesis 1:1 tells of the beginning of one age, with the creation of the earth. In the next verse, it tells of the wreckage of it in some catastrophe. No, the King James Bible doesn't tell you this because it is mistranslated.

In the original Hebrew, Genesis 1:2 says that the earth became chaotic and empty, obviously as a result of some great cataclysm, Jeremiah 4:23-27 was a vision of this. In these verses Jeremiah said, "I beheld the earth, and lo! It was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and lo! They trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and lo! The fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down in the presence of Yahweh, and by His fierce anger. For thus hath Yahweh said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end".

In this first age lived the civilizations of which archaeologists now find some trace, many, many thousands of years older than Adam. The second age began with the restoration of order out of this chaos and the repopulation of the earth, from Genesis 1:3 onward. Probably Noah's flood in Genesis chapters 6-8, marks the end of the second age. The resurrection of Yahshua marks the end of the third age. No greater dividing point can be found in all of history.

We are now living in the fourth age, this will end in the overthrow of the existing satanic world order and the return of Yahshua to rule for the millennium. We say that Ephesians 2:7 spoke of ages still to come. So that proves there are not less than six ages referred to in the Bible.

The Bible also speaks of something longer than just an age. In several places, such as Revelation 1:18, Hebrews 13:21, and II Timothy 4:18, it speaks of the ages of the ages, usually translated forever. Even this is not really eternal or endless. Revelation 11:15 says that Yahshua shall reign for aeons of the aeons. Yet I Corinthians 15:24-28 says that there comes a time when Yahshua gives up the kingdom to Yahweh the Father. Hebrews 9:26 speaks of the end of the ages.

Are you beginning to wonder whether your life will finally end at the time when we run out of aeons? Have no fear of that! I Corinthians 15:22-26 tells us that Yahshua will reign until He has conquered all enemies, and that the last enemy to be abolished is death. From that time on, for those who are saved or redeemed by Yahshua, there is no death. It no longer matters whether there may be any reason to mark off a certain period of time as an age.

The life Yahshua then grants to His own will be truly endless. Hebrews 7:16 speaks of an indissoluble, or endless life. I Peter 1:4 says that by the resurrection of Yahshua, Yahweh has begotten us into an inheritance incorruptible, never decaying, which does not fade away. Life for the ages carries you up to the point where death is completely abolished and life does become eternal. Remember; don't try to find a distinction between eternal life and everlasting life. They are the same thing, merely being different translations of the very same word, with the very same meaning. Don't think of me as just an old Meany that goes around puncturing your pet doctrines; I'm only trying to bring you truth as accurately as I can get it.

When we do run out of ages, that doesn't mean the end of things, just the beginning of something on a much greater scale. We shall be living in that great kingdom of Yahweh of which Isaiah 9:7 says, "Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end". Something, which never comes to an end, is truly eternal. Notice this, it does not say merely that of His government there shall be no end, it says the increase of His government there shall be no end.

There is room for all of your hopes and aspirations in such a plan as that. By the time you have learned one phase of it so well that it is becoming a bit old, there will be new and greater developments open to you. Truly an eternity of ever expanding greatness, it will forever challenge your greatest abilities and spur you on to finer achievements.

For quite a while to come, we will have the ages. Make the most of them, for they are the school, the training period for the true eternity. It is the eventual period without end, when we will be in Yahweh's kingdom, doing His will and finding therein the highest possible happiness.

http://www.israelect.com/childrenofYahweh/Comparet/mystery.htm

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #164 on: September 10, 2010, 08:56:49 AM »

BTW James can you give me a verse that uses kosmon. I have to admit I never even heard of that word until you used it...
Now not tell me it was a typo :laughing7:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world [kosmon] through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12

kosmon appears at least 46 times in the Bible

kosmon
G2889
n_ Acc Sg m
SYSTEM
world

"translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'
G2889 is kosmos in my lexicons. :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #165 on: September 10, 2010, 08:57:49 AM »
Good info Tony.   :thumbsup:

Molly, great article.  It was helpful.  These parts really jump out at me;

The Bible speaks of ages in the plural....

Past ages have been ended by terrific cataclysms or other occurrences, which definitely mark the beginning of a new age. Genesis 1:1 tells of the beginning of one age, with the creation of the earth. In the next verse, it tells of the wreckage of it in some catastrophe. No, the King James Bible doesn't tell you this because it is mistranslated.

In the original Hebrew, Genesis 1:2 says that the earth became chaotic and empty, obviously as a result of some great cataclysm, Jeremiah 4:23-27 was a vision of this. In these verses Jeremiah said, "I beheld the earth, and lo! It was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and lo! They trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and lo! The fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down in the presence of Yahweh, and by His fierce anger. For thus hath Yahweh said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end".

In this first age lived the civilizations of which archaeologists now find some trace, many, many thousands of years older than Adam. The second age began with the restoration of order out of this chaos and the repopulation of the earth, from Genesis 1:3 onward. Probably Noah's flood in Genesis chapters 6-8, marks the end of the second age. The resurrection of Yahshua marks the end of the third age. No greater dividing point can be found in all of history.

The Bible also speaks of something longer than just an age. In several places, such as Revelation 1:18, Hebrews 13:21, and II Timothy 4:18, it speaks of the ages of the ages.... Hebrews 9:26 speaks of the end of the ages.

Are you beginning to wonder whether your life will finally end at the time when we run out of aeons? Have no fear of that! I Corinthians 15:22-26 tells us that Yahshua will reign until He has conquered all enemies, and that the last enemy to be abolished is death. From that time on, for those who are saved or redeemed by Yahshua, there is no death. It no longer matters whether there may be any reason to mark off a certain period of time as an age.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 09:04:54 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #166 on: September 10, 2010, 09:01:00 AM »

BTW James can you give me a verse that uses kosmon. I have to admit I never even heard of that word until you used it...
Now not tell me it was a typo :laughing7:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world [kosmon] through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12

kosmon appears at least 46 times in the Bible

kosmon
G2889
n_ Acc Sg m
SYSTEM
world

"translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'
G2889 is kosmos in my lexicons. :dontknow:

The above is taken directly from the Greek Interlinear...  

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom5.pdf

second page, Romans 5:12
-------------------------------

"46 occurrences"     http://concordance.biblos.com/kosmon.htm

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #167 on: September 10, 2010, 09:04:32 AM »
I think it's great!  Translation, translation, translation!

So many words have been translated as world.  For instance, I don't believe 'creation' is necessarily an accurate equivalent to 'world'. 

I like your work here.

So if accurate, this one would read like this;

For by one man sin entered into the system...Rom. 5:12

To me, it sheds a more understandable and reconcilable light.  So the question can be, what system, which system?  There easily could have been more than one system, just as there are more than one aion.   

Example;  "Who gave himself for our
sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world,
according to the will of God and our Father"

Check out where they got 'world'!!!

aiwnos
aiOnos
G165
n_ Gen Sg m
eon

then they turned it into world...  :eyebrow:
That's exactly why I wrote a few posts back I believe translators should translate.
World certainly fits in that verse. But because aion is structurally translated as something that fits in that verse all ages are removed from the Bible.
By doing so Gods plan of the ages is 'editted out'.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #168 on: September 10, 2010, 09:12:36 AM »

BTW James can you give me a verse that uses kosmon. I have to admit I never even heard of that word until you used it...
Now not tell me it was a typo :laughing7:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world [kosmon] through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12

kosmon appears at least 46 times in the Bible

kosmon
G2889
n_ Acc Sg m
SYSTEM
world

"translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'
G2889 is kosmos in my lexicons. :dontknow:

The above is taken directly from the Greek Interlinear...  

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom5.pdf

second page, Romans 5:12
-------------------------------

"46 occurrences"     http://concordance.biblos.com/kosmon.htm
That's weird. I rechecked and it's really kosmos in the software I have. Same for several online Bibles. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=5&v=12&t=KJV#conc/12
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #169 on: September 10, 2010, 09:17:14 AM »
So he has deduced 6 ages--that makes a lot of sense--and then 'eternity'--timelessness--God's 7th day rest.


Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:



And, he deduces from the gap theory at least one age before Adam.  That takes care of all problems with science in one fell swoop.  Where's Shawn?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #170 on: September 10, 2010, 09:24:29 AM »
So he has deduced 6 ages--that makes a lot of sense--and then 'eternity'--timelessness--God's 7th day rest.


Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:



And, he deduces from the gap theory at least one age before Adam.  That takes care of all problems with science in one fell swoop.  Where's Shawn?

Yes it does make sense.  Like I said, it was helpful info for me.

Molly, check out the link I gave Tony.  Look at verse 13 where it's talking about the Law issues you'd mentioned.  It also has "system" prior to changing it to the popular 'world'.  Pretty interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom5.pdf

Offline Molly

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #171 on: September 10, 2010, 09:56:35 AM »
So he has deduced 6 ages--that makes a lot of sense--and then 'eternity'--timelessness--God's 7th day rest.


Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:



And, he deduces from the gap theory at least one age before Adam.  That takes care of all problems with science in one fell swoop.  Where's Shawn?

Yes it does make sense.  Like I said, it was helpful info for me.

Molly, check out the link I gave Tony.  Look at verse 13 where it's talking about the Law issues you'd mentioned.  It also has "system" prior to changing it to the popular 'world'.  Pretty interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rom5.pdf


Yes.  System seems to be the preferred translation for kosmos there.

until for law sin was in system sin yet not is being imputed no of-being law


Until the law came, sin was in the system but not yet taken into account because there was no law. 

That sounds like a totally evil system to me.  [which would explain how you ended up with tohu and bohu--emptiness and desolation]  In fact, it is describing anarchy. :mshock:



2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.



[mystery of] "iniquity"

G458
ανομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.



G459
ανομος
anomos
an'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked: - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.



So the question is--how to have the law and live?  [since law makes you accountable for sin and the wages of sin is death]

Ans:  Jesus.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #172 on: September 10, 2010, 09:57:34 AM »
Quote from: Article
In the original Hebrew, Genesis 1:2 says that the earth became chaotic and empty, obviously as a result of some great cataclysm, Jeremiah 4:23-27 was a vision of this. In these verses Jeremiah said, "I beheld the earth, and lo! It was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and lo! They trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and lo! The fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down in the presence of Yahweh, and by His fierce anger. For thus hath Yahweh said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end".
Is that the meteor impact that wiped out the dino's?

I think the article is missing at least one age.
Quote
=ArticleAre you beginning to wonder whether your life will finally end at the time when we run out of aeons? Have no fear of that! I Corinthians 15:22-26 tells us that Yahshua will reign until He has conquered all enemies, and that the last enemy to be abolished is death. From that time on, for those who are saved or redeemed by Yahshua, there is no death. It no longer matters whether there may be any reason to mark off a certain period of time as an age.
After the 1000 year reign satan will be losed for a little while.

(Revelation 20:3) and cast him into the abyss, and fastened and sealed [it] over him,––that he might not deceive the nations any more, until the thousand years, should be ended: after these, must he be loosed for a short time.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #173 on: September 10, 2010, 10:01:07 AM »
Good points Tony.  I wouldn't be surprised if there's another/different age.  I thought about when the temple was destroyed, for instance...I've thought of that as being the beginning of a new age, although it very well could have been a culmination of the transition that really started with either the crucifixion or the resurrection.  Not sure...maybe that whole time period of 40+ years was the transition...it was all very cataclysmic, that's for sure.

And Molly, you just keep taking it deeper and deeper.   :angelharp:

Offline willieH

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Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #174 on: September 10, 2010, 10:03:32 AM »
willieH: Hi Lefein...  :cloud9:

As promised here is my answer to this post.  :thumbsup:

My answers are in blue...

{Moderator Edit}

Quote
The Bible only does three things regarding the Genesis account of Creation:

1: State as fact - In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, the Earth was formless and void, and the Godhead was present over the waters, which where yet to be ordered into atmosphere - liquid ocean.

Sorry, but the "godhead" is not mentioned in Genesis 1...  The word Elohim is used in Gen 1 -- Elohim, though a plural form, does not imply PLURALITY in being.  No more than the word "YOU" as I address YOU... means that YOU are more than 1 being.  You wear plural hats (son, grandson, husband, brother, friend, uncle, etc) but YOU remain ONE being.

...Now you're just being contradictory for the sake of being contradictory.

I am doing no such thing.  I commented from my viewpoint... that it appears contrary to yours should be no surprise to you.  :dontknow:

There is only one God!  And God does not change!  Behold the following verses:

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

This is stating that YHVH God (the only God that IS God) dwelt in the MAN -- JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Tim 2:6  ...completely.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The WORD is YHVH manifest in external terms.

John 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.

Ones "WORD" is always with one...  Is your "word" with you, Lefein?  Is "your word", a different person than Lefein?

John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


No argument.

The Godhead was indeed present!  At the beginning; at Genesis.

I was pointing to the referential term "Godhead" which is absent from the TEXT you referred TO...  not the FULLNESS of YHVH... For YHVH (in His fullness) is always an UNCHANGING entity. 

Also FYI --- the term "GODHEAD" strictly means DIVINITY... it does not imply a plurality nor a "committee" called God which is "comprised of 3 beings".


The Earth in essence, was Crust and some form of chaotic vapourous covering, over which God was present having made it that way - preparing to order it.

Quote from: willieH
This is an ASSUMPTION... the WORD does not mention that either the "WATERS" or the Earth mentioned in Gen 1:1 -- were physical in nature.  They were EMERGING from a SPIRIT... so in that process, their "beginning" was more likely SPIRITUAL, than PHYSICAL (though I, as you, cannot PROVE this to be so).

Not everything in the Bible has to be "spiritualised" for goodness sakes, wine can be wine, and water can be water.  Context!

FIRST --- Please do not argue the THEOLOGICAL and NON-BIBLICAL requirement of "context" with me, you shall find further disappointment.  I believe that the WORD of God IS a complete CONTEXT... and cannot be confined in any way by mans demand of "context".

SECOND --- The entire WORD of God is the WORD of His SPIRIT, so please refrain from necessitating your CARNAL applications to it...


Just because the acts of God carry a deep spiritual meaning, does not negate the fact that there is a physical aspect to his doings too!

No one is arguing this, except you.  I noted (if you even bothered to read) that the PHYSICAL creation, emerged from the SPIRITUAL.

His miracles are not vapourous philosophy!  They are acts of power!  Made manifest in our physical realm, as well as the spiritual reality amidst it.

You wander aimlessly with this comment...

The Physical is a reflection of SPIRITUAL knowledge and TRUTH... The knowledge of GOOD and EVIL are projections in PHYSICAL terms of ETERNAL SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE.  For goodness sake, it ain't that hard, brother Lefein.


Quote from: willieH
When CHRIST speaks of the "drinking of the WATER of life"... neither the "water" nor the "drinking" of it, ...can be considered a PHYSICAL act, even though it's "doing" quenches the "thirst" (which isn't PHYSICAL either) of the SPIRIT within...

The context alludes to it being spiritual in this case.  In the case of Genesis: It alludes to a physical act primarily - "Let light be!" does not mean only (providing that a spiritual meaning is there indeed, which I am sure there is) that some vapourous philosophical illumination came to be, it means quite literally "Light be!"

That you make such a statement which is devoid of Spiritual insight is kinda, well, ...sad.   :sigh:

Placing your need for parameters in the Physical as PRIMARY... and then stating: "providing that a spiritual meaning is there indeed, which I am sure there is"...


Your "spiritual" uncertainty is showing, brother. 

That GOD (in the beginning) is making a place in which He shall walk for a time with Adam & Eve, is in your mind primarily PHYSICAL and, ...the MAJESTIC emergence of the Creation as having SPIRITUAL meaning, at best, ...an "afterthought"... is pretty much why you and I do not get along, bro Lefein.


Quote from: willieH
The "deep" mentioned in this verse aludes to ABYSS... an ABYSS can be SPIRITUAL in nature as well as PHYSICAL.  :dontknow:

Why not both...?

Why both?  You would make man AND the Creation, primarily CARNAL, instead of a SPIRITUAL thing!!  ...which is evidence of your present mindset.

Quote from: willieH
"Tartaroo" as used by Peter [2 Pet 2:4] in its only appearance in the WORD, alludes to the deepest ABYSS of hades... Does that mean to you that they "dug to China" to bury those in "tartaroo", Lefein?  :dontknow:

Follow the context...

You did not quote the "context" you paraphrased it and added these comments to it:

Quote
2:  God brought order, and stability to the Earth, and its Waters, putting Life on it in the span of six periods of time; literal 24 hour day - or literally symbolic day measuring eons; as God said himself - A day to God is as a thousand years, which is "literally symbolic" language meaning a very, very long time to us, is a short time to God.

Wow!  Could you use your own counsel, and simplify this a bit, Lefein?   :laughing7:

Get thee behind me Satan.  Your laughter rooted from a wounded pride is not welcome, and neither is your abrasiveness.

Wounded pride?  Please!

Right back atcha "satan"...   You have no sense of humor, Lefein satan!

Lose the stiff neck and get over yourself.

I was referring to your rant about complexity, and your subsequent cryptic wordings which display hypocrisy.


Quote from: willieH
"Literally symbolic"?  Is that like, Long Shortness?  or Empty Fullness? or Heavily Light?  :laugh:

Twice behind, your laughter is not welcome.

Again, try getting off your pedestal, and let us speak to one another, with our feet on the ground... Laughter is the JOY of the soul... you would do well to learn of it.

Literally Symbolic is a term that God himself gave to me!  If you must know...

It means quite simply that God uses symbolic language to describe literal events, it is a phrase he gave me to indeed simplify, to name that concept.

Then why were your words in the form of GARBLE?

"Literal" and "Symbolic" are antonym to the other... For EXAMPLE:


In Mark 9:43-49 -- CHRIST instructs that one must "CUT OFF" and offending hand or foot... This is figurative or symbolic instruction for one to NOT put ones hand to SINFUL acts... or to enact the FEET to transport one to such an act...

If one takes this passage of Scripture LITERALLY... then one actually removes ones LITERAL HAND from ones LITERAL arm, or ones LITERAL foot from ones LITERAL leg...

Have YOU taken this SYMBOLIC passage, "LITERALLY" Lefein? Are you "one [or no] handed"? or "one [or no] footed" brother Lefein? :dunno:

 :Yeahright: ...That's what I thought! :nod:

Everyone that believes in God and CHRIST takes this passage SYMBOLICALLY, ...and well they should, for it is SIN to maim and destroy the temple of GOD which TEMPLE ye ARE! -- 1 Cor 3:17


Quote from: willieH
The WORD says that a day (to God) is ...AS... a thousand years... it does NOT SAY, that it IS a thousand years.

It only describes that TIME resembles and assumes a meaningless position to our INFINITE God, than does TIME's position appear to us ...finites.

Actually, the language more implies [IMObservation]... that TIME is totally irrelevant to God.  Not that a "day" is shorter for Him than for us.

Then it only bolsters the fact that the six days could be however long God wanted them to be!  It could be whole epochs and life ages of the universe in a single second of that "24-hour day" if God so desired it, showing the literal-literal view of YEC's measurement of Genesis's Yom's to be even less important, or absolute than they make it out to be.

Lefein... GOD surely can do whatever He desires, no one is arguing against this. 

But you just JUMPED from what IS STATED in the Creation account... to SPECULATIONS of "this could be, that could be".... which has no foundation nor notation in the WORD as has been given us.

"If's, coulda's, woulda's & shoulda's" are nothing but VAIN IMAGINATIONS of men.

I believe that the observation of the ancient, such as DINOSAURS, actually took place within the 6K period of time, ...and it is very explanable, but most (including you) will not listen to the explanation.  You are too busy being "theological" to sit still a moment and hear...

Time is a very DEEP and subjective thing which MOST have not bothered to investigate it at all...

Have you investigated it, Lefein?  How much EXPERIENCE have you had with it Lefein?  Are you aged?  If not, then you already know little of it. 

God more than just teaches of Himself in the WORD... LIFE is one of the things that JESUS CHRIST... IS -- John 14:6 -- and in the experience of LIFE which takes place in the manifestation of TIME, are things learned of Him, and REVELATION of mysteries such as TIME, that reveal Him as well as His WORD -- Prov 25:2 -- Rom 1:20 -- LIFE and nature teach of Him as well... how large a portion of THESE, have YOU supped upon, Lefein?

Well ...I have investigated TIME, and there is MUCH to say of it, that I'm bettin' you know NOTHING about...

5 seconds of TIME, is a SHORT period which is considered as nothing ...and passes almost unnoticed, and IMMEDIATELY in such as a 100 yard race or a football game, or in the watching of a movie, etc... but just try spending that same 5 second period of TIME with your hand on stove burner on high, and behold, HOW LONG 5 seconds can BE!  A day passes almost before you even realize as you go to work, and sit at your computer, but try spending a DAY in the ICU after surgery... and find the true length a DAY can be...

That is only the surface, ...in this thread our scientist friend Shawn made a statement that is quite useful in explaining time's mysteries such as the DINOSAURS, I asked him, but he didn't seem to realize what he said, do you?


Quote from: willieH
To VAINLY attempt to tie GOD to ANY parameter, is to try to CONFINE Him.  So any "duration" of a DAY that YOU or I might consider concerning Him, is nothing more than our attempt to CONFINE Him to some aspect of our own limitations.  :thumbdown:

...This is becoming silly, and becoming silly fast.

Of course we can't limit the infinite God into a finite box, but that isn't what we're discussing here! >_<

{MODERATOR EDIT}

Not sure what you actually wrote here, but I'm guessing it wasn't all that nice.

I stand by the above quote of mine you just quoted above.  We cannot tie God down to anything.  He "could have" just revealed to us all the knowledge of Good and Evil... Hey -- He is GOD, and is capable of ANYTHING... but HE DIDN'T did He?

Instead of your "coulda, woulda, shoulda's" ...He DIVINELY and PERFECTLY chose to make it a LIVING thing... utilizing LIVING beings to REVEAL it, ...beginning with the immersion of us all amidst it, by CONCLUDING us all IN UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- which sets each of us without our consent, into the "pool" of SIN... UNBELIEF being a prime qualification for the Lake of FIRE -- Rev 21:8
-- Do you even know WHAT the Lake of FIRE is, Lefein, or even WHEN it is?  :dontknow: 

Or do you just pull out your LITERAL tool and promptly digest the "discovery channel/christian religion" version of it... being that -- "its at the end of TIME"?  Not even realizing what TIME actually IS... and that its FUNCTION is PERFECTLY ordered according to the DIVINITY of YHVH and HIS WORKINGS, not yours, not mine.

ALL that you experience is DIVINELY ordained Lefein... and each moment of your experience is a part of the PERFECT and COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, as known in COMPLETE DETAIL in the Heart of YHVH God... Which shall be TOTALLY revealed when ALL is said and done -- Luke 8:17


:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9: