Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED

[jabcat]

Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).  

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago.  

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation?

I think the answer is no. I agree with what you wrote but it won't help in this discussion. I, and I think I can safely include Shawn, think that the kosmos/system is billions of years older than planet earth. For Willie that's obiously not the case because he estimated the age of the whole creation between about 6-10 thousand years.
So even if there is full agreement on the meaning of kosmos/kosmon there is no agreement on the time span involved.
I hope I summarized everybodies opinion correctly in this message.

I guess I was thinking "creation in total" vs. any particular (perhaps) separate and distinct "system" (of which there could be many - as Molly suggested, i.e., 'aions') could be 2 different things - if one would consider other possibilities than what we can otherwise get narrowly fixed upon.    Likely some can consider it, some won't.

[micah7:9]

Regarding willieH's posts--

It took me a while to get used to them, but now I consider them a work of art.  I can't imagine how he creates them any more than I can imagine how Rembrandt created the Night Watch.

God did not give me artistic talent, alas...   Nor the patience it requires.

But, thankfully, now I am coming to appreciate art more and more.

So to willieH--I appreciate and enjoy your posts, but even more the talent that it takes to create them.

I'll double that!

[WhiteWings]

Bottom line on Willies posts everyone , as far as I am concerned, who are we to tell Willie to not use smilies and color?

None of that makes Willie right or wrong,  if you disagree with Willie stick to the facts, pointing out that you do not like the way he formats his posts is not a factor that makes him less correct.   That's just the facts.

Agreed. If, with I'm not, was someone that has great teaching (directly inspired by HS) I would do my best to enlight as many people as possible with it.
All people have their limitations. Personally I find the fontsize on this forum much to big. It's a waste of screen space. I'm just blessed with good eyesight. Others are not. That's why I don't scale down all my postings to my ideal text size. It's just a shame many good points of many users go lost because of insignificant things like tiny fonts and/or funny colors.

[WhiteWings]

"But the woman you gave me!  But the serpent!  This that other!"

Gird up thy loins thou man!  Do you think I haven't looked at the beam in my own eye!?

I piously suggest you post in a way that people can read and understand, so that you will be an edifying, effective, and equipping part of the body of Christ!  Not to condemn your "style" of posting.

As Gandalf would say to Bilbo: I am not trying to rob you!  I'm trying to help you.

Hear hear! Lefein is the most crafty with words! 
Sorry Lefein, couldn't resist the open goal 

[WhiteWings]

So, again do you guys think man walked with dinosaurs?  If so, what evidence do you have for your belief?  If not, how do you explain the death of dinosaurs before man with a literal interpretation of Genesis?

Speaking with the words one of the most known YECs, Kent Hovind:
The dragons in the story of Arthur are the last last of the dinosaurs. Drawing on Egyptian pottery.

BTW I think crocodiles may be classified as dinosaurs.

[thinktank]

Regarding willieH's posts--

It took me a while to get used to them, but now I consider them a work of art.  I can't imagine how he creates them any more than I can imagine how Rembrandt created the Night Watch.

God did not give me artistic talent, alas...   Nor the patience it requires.

But, thankfully, now I am coming to appreciate art more and more.

So to willieH--I appreciate and enjoy your posts, but even more the talent that it takes to create them.

It's pretty easy how he creates them he just gets a bit mad and stamps the caps lock key  AGAIN AND AGAIN AND THEN THROWS AN INSULT OR TWO, great work of art, to annoy and insult the body of Christ 

I have never been "mad" at you tank, and am not mad at you now... 

That you are unable to recognize that I use these things as emphasis, only displays a failure to attend to detail.

Besides... you are to FORGIVE and BLESS those which you percieve as enemy to you (annoying and insulting)... so where were those, in this post, ...Mr. "body of Christ"?

I consider that you are often embedded in frustration... and forgive you for this childish tirade... 

Bro!

...willieH 

I'm not sure if I believe you that you are not mad or bitter towards me for it is quite obvious in your posts, but I know that you like me, I think.

I know you use caps to emphasize, but most people use it sparingly or to use caps in the same manner as one speaks. In your posts you interject caps into words ALL OVER the PLACE which is distracting, for you sound similar to chitty bang bang, jumping and rolling all over the place, where your letter seems as if you are lacking in control over your emotions, if you understand.

I don't bless people in every post I tend to do what this scripture says

Matthew 6:6

You are correct that I am often frustrated and this what often occurs to people who have a personality like myself, it is the burden of having to many thoughts and feelings, but it is also a blessing. I could keep the frustrations to myself but I trust the people here that they will be loving and kind towards me as I reveal my frustrations in trust to the people here.

Thank you for saying that you forgive me, this gives me greater faith that you are not of my enemy for I do not trust you yet, as you also do not trust me, but maybe in time things will grow and change, which I perceive that growth has already taken place over the last month or so. But I do not believe in a false peace, so don't be to alarmed if I say something rude to you in future, but my trust is in the God of Abraham that he will keep the peace, even when we seemingly are at war with each other.

God bless

[WhiteWings]

Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).  

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago.  

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation?

I think the answer is no. I agree with what you wrote but it won't help in this discussion. I, and I think I can safely include Shawn, think that the kosmos/system is billions of years older than planet earth. For Willie that's obiously not the case because he estimated the age of the whole creation between about 6-10 thousand years.
So even if there is full agreement on the meaning of kosmos/kosmon there is no agreement on the time span involved.
I hope I summarized everybodies opinion correctly in this message.

I guess I was thinking "creation in total" vs. any particular (perhaps) separate and distinct "system" (of which there could be many - as Molly suggested, i.e., 'aions') could be 2 different things - if one would consider other possibilities than what we can otherwise get narrowly fixed upon.    Likely some can consider it, some won't.

Lemme see if I understand you. So you say the 6000 years is a system and the (creation of the) cosmos is another system?

[Molly]

Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).  

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago.  

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation?

I think the answer is no. I agree with what you wrote but it won't help in this discussion. I, and I think I can safely include Shawn, think that the kosmos/system is billions of years older than planet earth. For Willie that's obiously not the case because he estimated the age of the whole creation between about 6-10 thousand years.
So even if there is full agreement on the meaning of kosmos/kosmon there is no agreement on the time span involved.
I hope I summarized everybodies opinion correctly in this message.

I guess I was thinking "creation in total" vs. any particular (perhaps) separate and distinct "system" (of which there could be many - as Molly suggested, i.e., 'aions') could be 2 different things - if one would consider other possibilities than what we can otherwise get narrowly fixed upon.    Likely some can consider it, some won't.

Lemme see if I understand you. So you say the 6000 years is a system and the (creation of the) cosmos is another system?

Yes, for instance--the 6000 years could be a system of recreation if you ascribe to the gap theory.  And, the 15billion years before that could be many systems, or one system.

This 2000 years of the 6000 year system is referred to as the 'latter days.'

Are you thinking that God only has 6000 years to devote to this project of his?  That would make us barely a footnote.  


Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world [kosmos]: but now once in the end of the world [aion] hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Sounds like aion is a subset of kosmos to me.

[WhiteWings]

One last post. What I do like about Willie's posting style is that he quotes posts in little parts and replies to each quoted part, instead of just answering the whole post in one big quote. That makes it, for me, more readble.

Ok bedtime for me. I'll be back in the next yom.
Surely some will hope I never return because that proves their point about yom  

BTW James can you give me a verse that uses kosmon. I have to admit I never even heard of that word until you used it...
Now not tell me it was a typo

[Lefein]

WillieH; I said I was finished...And I meant it.

*shakes the dust from his feet, and walks away*

<>---<>---<>

When it comes to Yom, it may be a good idea perhaps to compare it to...

"The day of our Lord" which may be an age?  Are we in the day of our lord?  2000 years later?

[willieH]

Bottom line on Willies posts everyone , as far as I am concerned, who are we to tell Willie to not use smilies and color?

None of that makes Willie right or wrong,  if you disagree with Willie stick to the facts, pointing out that you do not like the way he formats his posts is not a factor that makes him less correct.   That's just the facts.

I actually agree.  The only problem is when he gets upset because someone doesn't answer his questions.  Me personally, I just can't bring myself to sort through it all.  So, I hope he doesn't get offended when I don't read it...or answer his questions. 

You falsely note that I have become "upset" with others.

I have not gotten "upset" with anyone... I have noted that IGNORANCE is the method of evasion which is employed by many to which I answer... I have displayed no dismay toward anyone...

If you choose to IGNORE what I say... that is your affair, it does not matter to me. 

I compose posts here at Tentmaker, and leave the words to God to use or not use, as He decides...

Here is how I view yours or anyones ignorance of my writings, ...it is this simple:

It does not matter to me in the slightest that you read, answer or complain of my words...  It certainly does NOT "upset" me... You flatter yourself in thinking that it does... 

My words are either pertinent to you, or they are not...  God either uses them concerning you, or He does not...

...willieH 

[willieH]

WillieH; I said I was finished...And I meant it.

*shakes the dust from his feet, and walks away*

<>---<>---<>

When it comes to Yom, it may be a good idea perhaps to compare it to...

"The day of our Lord" which may be an age?  Are we in the day of our lord?  2000 years later?

Why are you asking me questions?  I thought you said you were "finished"? 

Does not matter if you are "finished"... I am not!  Your post to me shall gain an answer from me, whether YOU read it or not... 

I guess it remains to be seen whether you are "finished" or not... 

...willieH 

[Lefein]

What question?  The Yom/Day of our lord thing was me getting back on topic and into the conversation stream with the rest of the fish.

[shawn]

So, again do you guys think man walked with dinosaurs?  If so, what evidence do you have for your belief?  If not, how do you explain the death of dinosaurs before man with a literal interpretation of Genesis?

Speaking with the words one of the most known YECs, Kent Hovind:
The dragons in the story of Arthur are the last last of the dinosaurs. Drawing on Egyptian pottery.

BTW I think crocodiles may be classified as dinosaurs.

Ok, but still do you believe man walked with the T-Rex?  If not, then why?  If so, then why?

[thinktank]

So, again do you guys think man walked with dinosaurs?  If so, what evidence do you have for your belief?  If not, how do you explain the death of dinosaurs before man with a literal interpretation of Genesis?

Speaking with the words one of the most known YECs, Kent Hovind:
The dragons in the story of Arthur are the last last of the dinosaurs. Drawing on Egyptian pottery.

BTW I think crocodiles may be classified as dinosaurs.

Ok, but still do you believe man walked with the T-Rex?  If not, then why?  If so, then why?

There is no evidence of bones of people that are older than 5000 years old. The oldest tree and city are also around 5000 years old. There are some reports of human bones in affrica that are around 10 thousand years old though.

This website might share some light on the dinosaur

www.answersingenesis.org

[shawn]

So, again do you guys think man walked with dinosaurs?  If so, what evidence do you have for your belief?  If not, how do you explain the death of dinosaurs before man with a literal interpretation of Genesis?

Speaking with the words one of the most known YECs, Kent Hovind:
The dragons in the story of Arthur are the last last of the dinosaurs. Drawing on Egyptian pottery.

BTW I think crocodiles may be classified as dinosaurs.

Ok, but still do you believe man walked with the T-Rex?  If not, then why?  If so, then why?

There is no evidence of bones of people that are older than 5000 years old. The oldest tree and city are also around 5000 years old. There are some reports of human bones in affrica that are around 10 thousand years old though.

This website might share some light on the dinosaur

www.answersingenesis.org

I would stay away from yec sites if you want correct historical information.  The Chinese civilization alone is 7-8000 years old.

From the Chinese information center...

The first light of Chinese civilization revealed itself 7,000 to 8,000 years ago, as indicated by the ruins of the Daxi Culture in Sichuan and Hubei provinces, the Majiapang Culture in Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces, the Hemudu Culture in eastern Zhejiang and the Yangshou Culture along the middle reaches of the Yellow River and its main tributaries.

http://www.china.org.cn/e-gudai/index-1.htm

The oldest human bones found are 195,000 years old.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0216_050216_omo.html

[Lefein]

Possibly a silly question...but...

"Why" does man have to walk with dinosaurs exactly?  Would it bear any difference if Adam didn't walk with a t-rex?

Afterall, Dinosaurs are a meta-word really...What we call "dinosaurs" are actually a group of very, very different sorts of animals.

From the sauropod, to the hadrosaurs, to the stegasaurs, the triceratops, and even the raptor is different from the tyrannosaur.

[shawn]

Possibly a silly question...but...

"Why" does man have to walk with dinosaurs exactly?  Would it bear any difference if Adam didn't walk with a t-rex?

Afterall, Dinosaurs are a meta-word really...What we call "dinosaurs" are actually a group of very, very different sorts of animals.

From the sauropod, to the hadrosaurs, to the stegasaurs, the triceratops, and even the raptor is different from the tyrannosaur.

Lefein, what I am attempting to do is lead the logical progression of Genesis interpretation through what God has revealed to us through scientific discovery.  Many Christians believe the interpretation of original sin, world age, animals not dying until "the fall" is correct.  I'm showing them it can't be.  Their interpretations are incorrect.  The Bible is without error but our interpretations of the Bible are full of error.

If man brought sin into the world which caused death for the first time of animals...then how is this possible?  Was man alive when dinosaurs were alive?  No, and the evidence clearly shows that.  Yet the dinosaurs were dead before man...unless you count birds.  Crisis of faith?  I clearly think not.  But, in a stubborn attempt to hang onto old interpretations which are not correct...yec's attack the science (and poorly at that may I add).  Some will even accuse the scientific world of a consipiracy to disgrace Christianity.  It's my opinion that the YEC stance makes Christians look foolish and uneducated.

I do not believe "man's discoveries" are from man.  I would think that UR guys could grasp this concept.  God is in control of all.  God allowed man to begin collecting massive amounts of knowledge in a very short period of time.  I believe this is in fulfillment of scripture.  With these discoveries God has even given us hints about correct interpretations of scriptures.  It's there for us if we are willing to look.  I challenge this board to do with Genesis what they did with ET.  I challenge you to rethink your stances on every stance you have ever taken on original sin, age of earth etc.

[micah7:9]

Well glory to the Most High.
WillieH keep them posts coming, I for one never saw what ever body else saw. I just found the information enlightening to say the least. So a big thanks.

[Molly]

The oldest human bones found are 195,000 years old.

What do you mean by 'human'?

We've been down this road before on these boards, Shawn.  We've talked about gap theory, hidden archeology, suppressed science, all sorts of things related to this subject.

I'm interested in hearing what you think about it.

If homo sapiens sapiens has been around for 195,000 years, where are the great civilizations?  where are the mozarts, the newtons, the shakespeares?  

The best we can do in all that time is a few cave drawings and a couple of pyramids?

Why are we still moving around in glorified model-T's?

Really, the birthplace of modern civilization was Mesopotamia around and about the time that Adam would have lived.  

So why hundreds of thousands of years of....silence?

[jabcat]

Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).  

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago.  

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals [/color]

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation?

I think the answer is no. I agree with what you wrote but it won't help in this discussion. I, and I think I can safely include Shawn, think that the kosmos/system is billions of years older than planet earth. For Willie that's obiously not the case because he estimated the age of the whole creation between about 6-10 thousand years.
So even if there is full agreement on the meaning of kosmos/kosmon there is no agreement on the time span involved.
I hope I summarized everybodies opinion correctly in this message.

I guess I was thinking "creation in total" vs. any particular (perhaps) separate and distinct "system" (of which there could be many - as Molly suggested, i.e., 'aions') could be 2 different things - if one would consider other possibilities than what we can otherwise get narrowly fixed upon.    Likely some can consider it, some won't.

Lemme see if I understand you. So you say the 6000 years is a system and the (creation of the) cosmos is another system?

Yes, for instance--the 6000 years could be a system of recreation if you ascribe to the gap theory.  And, the 15billion years before that could be many systems, or one system.

This 2000 years of the 6000 year system is referred to as the 'latter days.'

Are you thinking that God only has 6000 years to devote to this project of his?  That would make us barely a footnote.  


Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world [kosmos]: but now once in the end of the world [aion] hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Sounds like aion is a subset of kosmos to me.

 

BTW James can you give me a verse that uses kosmon. I have to admit I never even heard of that word until you used it...
Now not tell me it was a typo

Therefore, just as sin came into the world [kosmon] through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12

kosmon appears at least 46 times in the Bible

kosmon
G2889
n_ Acc Sg m
SYSTEM
world

"translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'

[Molly]

Using kosmos=system and aion=age do these scriptures make more sense?



KOSMOS

...showed him all the kingdoms of the world [kosmos]...[mat 4:8]

Ye are the light of the world [kosmos]. [mat 5:14]

..the world [kosmos] hath hated them, because they are not of the world [kosmos], even as I am not of the world [kosmos]. John 17:4

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world [kosmos], even so have I also sent them into the world [kosmos].

...for thou lovedst me before the foundation [katabole] of the world [kosmos]. John 17:24

..he will judge the world [kosmos] in righteousness...Acts 17:31

O righteous Father, the world [kosmos] hath not known thee...John 17:25


Now we have received, not the spirit of the world [kosmos], but the spirit which is of God; 1Cor 2:12



AION

..it shall not be forgiven him, either in this world [aion] or the world [aion] to come.[mat 12:32]

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end [aion aion]. Amen.


...which was kept secret since the world began [aionios chronos].  Rom 16:25

...which God ordained before the world [aion] to our glory.  1 Cor 2:7

...which none of the princes of this world [aion] knew...1 Cor 2:8


...that he might deliver us from this present evil world [aion],..Gal 1:4

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began [aionios chronos];

[jabcat]

I think it's great!  Translation, translation, translation!

So many words have been translated as world.  For instance, I don't believe 'creation' is necessarily an accurate equivalent to 'world'. 

I like your work here.

So if accurate, this one would read like this;

For by one man sin entered into the system...Rom. 5:12

To me, it sheds a more understandable and reconcilable light.  So the question can be, what system, which system?  There easily could have been more than one system, just as there are more than one aion.   

Example;  "Who gave himself for our
sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world,
according to the will of God and our Father"

Check out where they got 'world'!!!

aiwnos
aiOnos
G165
n_ Gen Sg m
eon

then they turned it into world... 

[Molly]

whoa--Do you think Satan was already in charge of the kosmos when Adam was created?  That's why he showed up on the scene almost immediately to destroy Adam's God given dominion.

whoa...


We wrestle...against...the rulers of the darkness of this world [aion]...

--Eph 6


"rulers"

G2888
κοσμοκράτωρ
kosmokratōr
kos-mok-rat'-ore
From G2889 and G2902; a world ruler, an epithet of Satan: - ruler.


kosmokrator is created from kosmos and

G2902
κρατέω
krateō
krat-eh'-o
From G2904; to use strength, that is, seize or retain (literally or figuratively): - hold (by, fast), keep, lay hand (hold) on, obtain, retain, take (by).

[Molly]

In this aion, Satan rules the darkness, but we are children of the light.



1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.




17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
--Luke 10