Author Topic: Creation - Science/Faith AND (part of) Genesis, MERGED  (Read 38661 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2010, 10:16:10 AM »
Quote from: willieH
It does not STATE that the Creation is 6K years... however this APPROXIMATE time total, is NOTED in the WORD, and is demonstratable via the reverse counting of timeframes of Historical events as noted in the WORD... So it IS indicated chronologically reverse from the present to the day of Creation.

Well, I will agree that we can deduce Adam at 6000 years ago because I know that Kepler and others did the work to determine that, and I tend to trust their work [although I have never recreated it myself].

But--that just gets us back to Adam.  All sorts of things could have gone on before Adam.

"COULD HAVE" are the operative imaginary words...  :laughing7:

 :Yeahright:  Name one... Please make REFERENCE to the WORD as DEPICTED BY IT, ...in naming those "sorts of things"... which "could have" gone on before ADAM.

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2010, 10:19:07 AM »
12 Sin entered the world because one man sinned. And death came because of sin. Everyone sinned, so death came to all people.

 13 Before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not judged when there is no law.

--Rom 5

This is not such an obvious verse.  What is the time of 'before the law was given.'?  

Wasn't Adam the first man to whom the law was given?

17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

--Gen 2

So, Adam is the first man who had language [as far as we know] and who,  therefore, could receive the law [the Word of God].

So when is the time before the law was given?  Another era?--

13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

--Rom 5

The first thing God does after he places Adam in the garden is give him the law.  But, this verse refers to a time before that when there was sin in the world but no law, so the sin was not counted.

I think you need to re-read this Molly...  :dbook:

SIN, ENTERED via ADAM -- and therefore WAS not "in the world", until it ENTERED!

DEATH entered the Creation via ADAM's (in which DINOSAUR bones, which are BY PRODUCTS of DEATH, ...exist due to DEATH) ---> via ADAM... period!

...willieH  :cloud9:


Yes.  But then he goes on to give this caveat--

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

--Rom 5


So sin was already 'in' the world but was not imputed [had no power] until sin entered into the world through Adam to whom the law was given.

yes?

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2010, 10:20:54 AM »
Quote from: willieH
It does not STATE that the Creation is 6K years... however this APPROXIMATE time total, is NOTED in the WORD, and is demonstratable via the reverse counting of timeframes of Historical events as noted in the WORD... So it IS indicated chronologically reverse from the present to the day of Creation.

Well, I will agree that we can deduce Adam at 6000 years ago because I know that Kepler and others did the work to determine that, and I tend to trust their work [although I have never recreated it myself].

But--that just gets us back to Adam.  All sorts of things could have gone on before Adam.

"COULD HAVE" are the operative imaginary words...  :laughing7:

 :Yeahright:  Name one... Please make REFERENCE to the WORD as DEPICTED BY IT, ...in naming those "sorts of things"... which "could have" gone on before ADAM.

...willieH  :cloud9:

Well, I am trying to limit my imagination which is why I didn't say what they were.  Just that they exist.   God doesn't tell me everything, you know! :laughing7:

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8948
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2010, 10:31:21 AM »
Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).   :laughing7:

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago. 

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation? 


Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2010, 10:31:47 AM »
12 Sin entered the world because one man sinned. And death came because of sin. Everyone sinned, so death came to all people.

 13 Before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not judged when there is no law.

--Rom 5

This is not such an obvious verse.  What is the time of 'before the law was given.'?  

Wasn't Adam the first man to whom the law was given?

17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

--Gen 2

So, Adam is the first man who had language [as far as we know] and who,  therefore, could receive the law [the Word of God].

So when is the time before the law was given?  Another era?--

13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

--Rom 5

The first thing God does after he places Adam in the garden is give him the law.  But, this verse refers to a time before that when there was sin in the world but no law, so the sin was not counted.

I think you need to re-read this Molly...  :dbook:

SIN, ENTERED via ADAM -- and therefore WAS not "in the world", until it ENTERED!

DEATH entered the Creation via ADAM's (in which DINOSAUR bones, which are BY PRODUCTS of DEATH, ...exist due to DEATH) ---> via ADAM... period!

...willieH  :cloud9:

Yes.  But then he goes on to give this caveat--

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

--Rom 5

So sin was already 'in' the world but was not imputed [had no power] until sin entered into the world through Adam to whom the law was given.

yes?

NO!  SIN was NOT ...IN... the WORLD until it ...ENTERED... via ADAM.  

The Scripture does not say that SIN was IN the world, then ENTERED via ADAM...  Which is what you are trying to manufacture.

It says AFTER the notation that SIN ENTERED via ADAM... that it was already IN the world... for it had ENTERED via ADAM!

The LAW which ADAM transgressed BEFORE it was given, is the LAW of MOSES... which indicates SIN --- as is noted by James 2:11-12 -- which is the LAW of liberty from which JUDGMENT proceeds.

SIN could NOT be ...IN... the world [creation], until it ...ENTERED it.  Which it DID... via ADAM... :nod:

...willieH  :happygrin:

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8948
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2010, 10:33:44 AM »
Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).   :laughing7:

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago.  

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation?

I'm going to bed soon.  

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7297.msg83005#msg83005      :winkgrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2010, 10:42:48 AM »
Ok I will admit that Paul can make my head spin--but look what he says here--

'The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law" (I Cor. 15:56)

So--without the law does sin have any power?  I would say no.  And, it seems to me he also says no with his caveat--


13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

--Rom 5

If sin is not imputed, then sin has no power and you have no death.


This is the whole law/sin/death equation that Jesus resolves for us.


One other interesting thing, if you like steak as much as I do.  God does not mention eating of meat in Gen 1 [because animals would have to die].  The first implication of an animal dying is in Gen 3, after Adam has broken the law [unless you think you can skin an animal without killing it]--

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

--Gen 3

And, then we see Abel as a shepherd [meaning they are eating meat] and making animal sacrifices to God.




Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2010, 10:48:16 AM »
Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).   :laughing7:

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago.  

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation?

I'm going to bed soon.  

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7297.msg83005#msg83005      :winkgrin:

Yes, I agree--a world system, or an aion.  Although there are a lot of references to aions, God doesn't specifically spell them out to us [or if he does, I'm not aware of it.]

But, for me, this aion has as its foundation the lamb slain--

You can't have that without death.  And, [I think] you can't have death without the law.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12883
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2010, 10:52:15 AM »
NO!  SIN was NOT ...IN... the WORLD until it ...ENTERED... via ADAM.  

The Scripture does not say that SIN was IN the world, then ENTERED via ADAM...  Which is what you are trying to manufacture.

It says AFTER the notation that SIN ENTERED via ADAM... that it was already IN the world... for it had ENTERED via ADAM!

The LAW which ADAM transgressed BEFORE it was given, is the LAW of MOSES... which indicates SIN --- as is noted by James 2:11-12 -- which is the LAW of liberty from which JUDGMENT proceeds.

SIN could NOT be ...IN... the world [creation], until it ...ENTERED it.  Which it DID... via ADAM... :nod:

...willieH  :happygrin:
It's not that hard to understand I think...
Lemme explain with a more worldly example.
In teh USA it's a crime to download movies. Where I live it's perfectly legal. Same activity but for some it's illegal (sin) for others not.
But if copyright laws change here downloading movies becomes illegal (sin)
Those that lived before the new download law didn't break the law. Those that live after the new download law and still download are breaking that law.
Adam was the first man that after the new law still downloaded. The download sin entered via Adam.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 01:49:57 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2010, 11:00:44 AM »
Quote from: ww
The download sin entered via Adam.

Yeah.  If only Adam had lived in the Netherlands, everything would be different.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12883
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2010, 01:17:32 PM »
Day 1:
Hedean eon: 4,600-3,900 mya => solidification of earth's crust

Day 2:
Archeozoic eon: 3,900-2,500 mya - bacteria, blue-green algae & archaens start to oxygenate atmosphere

Day 3:
Early life
Silurian period -  405-425 mya

Day 4:
Sun and Moon.
Between day 1 and 2

Day 5:
Cambrian. 600-400 million years ago

Day 6:
(40 mya)


The above is a bit tricky to summarize.
Genesis doesn't say: THE first day era, but ONE era.
God just states 6 eras. They can chronological. But likely are not.

If you take this approach how do you explain dinosaurs.  Unlike some I actually believe the scientific evidence.  If sin brought death...how would have the dinosaurs died off before man?  Despite some notions that man walked with dinosaurs I don't believe the vast body of evidence supports that. 
Seems I overlooked this question....
What is death? Physical or spiritually? For who death entered the world? Could it be the death mentioned is only for men? Animals died before Adam ate from the fig tree?
One of the punishments that God gave was making birth more painfull for women.
Why did he say that to couple that didn't have anything to compare birth with. Eve never experienced the pains of giving birth. Neither could she have heard about it from others because they where the first humans.
But... (many not gonna like this :winkgrin:)
Only humans have birth pains. Animals not. It's because we walk upright. But also because our head is very large compared to our body. Heads story knowledge (of good and evil) but it's size cause pain for the mother when giving birth. Could Adam and Eve have seen birth from sub-humans?
I think you will find this book interesting. I've made a summary of it for personal use but have put it online here
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5565
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2010, 01:41:58 PM »
I will throw this bit of info out there. Its been said that "sin entered in via Adam" and if that is the case, and Paul says it as well; but why is it that the FIRST time SIN is mentioned is in accordance with CAIN not Adam?
Gen 4:7  If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it.

And let me say this since I read somethings in the post, I dont think that natural death was the dying of Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Souls die, man or animals, that dying is part of the cycle or circle of life. Adam/man did not have the slightest notion as to what "death" was and Eve/woman didnt have the slightest notion what "giving birth" was, that it was painful or not. I think as I have always been lead to believe there is more to and in Genesis's first four chapters than I for one, have been allowed to as of yet, to see. I just woke up and read these posts I am now going back to bed. Peace and Love Through Jesus.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12883
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2010, 02:03:33 PM »
I will throw this bit of info out there. Its been said that "sin entered in via Adam" and if that is the case, and Paul says it as well; but why is it that the FIRST time SIN is mentioned is in accordance with CAIN not Adam?
Good point. Perhaps because the "entering" is about the offspring of Adam.
In a way Cain entered the world via Adam (and Eve) because they decided to have children.
Quote
And let me say this since I read somethings in the post, I dont think that natural death was the dying of Gen 2:17
Agreed because that would mean Adam was immortal before death entered. That would be weird immortality. Plus the fig tree Jesus cursed is about/the tree of good and evil. The fig tree died but still we physically die....
Quote
I just woke up
Maybe your spirit woke up too :winkgrin:
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 04:11:57 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12883
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2010, 03:49:50 PM »
As a gesture to Shawn to keep this thread a little scientifc.... :winkgrin:
I think you will like the articles.

1987 - Mitochondrial Eve - Eve born 100.000-200.000 years ago
1998 - Eve's secret of growing younger - Eve was 10.000-20.000 years ago
2003 - Mitochondrial Eve is 6000 years old

Flawed?
More on Google
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 04:29:49 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2010, 03:58:02 PM »
Quote from: Micah
Its been said that "sin entered in via Adam" and if that is the case, and Paul says it as well; but why is it that the FIRST time SIN is mentioned is in accordance with CAIN not Adam?
Gen 4:7  If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it.


Quote from: ww
Perhaps because the "entering" about the offspring of Adam.
In a way Cain entered the world via Adam (and Eve) because they decided to have children.

Yes, because Adam is giving birth to children with language, to whom the law can be passed down, father to son.  

God tells Cain--sin  crouches at the door.  What door would that be?  

"at the door"

H6607
פּתח
pethach
peh'-thakh
From H6605; an opening (literally), that is, door (gate) or entrance way: - door, entering (in), entrance (-ry), gate, opening, place.


The birth canal?  [I think it's a double entendre, myself].

Before Cain and Abel, man was given dominion over everything living on the earth.

But, now, God gives the children of Adam dominion over sin.

....and thou shalt rule over him.

--Gen 4:7

"thou shalt rule"

H4910
משׁל
mâshal
maw-shal'
A primitive root; to rule: - (have, make to have) dominion governor, X indeed, reign, (bear, cause to, have) rule (-ing, -r), have power.




Thus is sin imputed--they are held accountable.

Offline Lefein

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2010, 04:06:11 PM »
WillieH; please let your yea be yea, and your nay be nay when it comes to your future responses.  I beg you now as a brother in Christ, for your benefit.  Simple elegance will suffice, and the main problem is that the posts are simply too neon bold to quote efficiently, let alone answer properly - it hinders discussion...and puts unfortunately a hurdle in my way, a stumbling block if you will.

But on topic, and it may be a little behind since I could only pull part of the quote forth to answer it... :(

The Bible does not ever say that the age of the earth is 6k years.

The Bible only does three things regarding the Genesis account of Creation:

1: State as fact - In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, the Earth was formless and void, and the Godhead was present over the waters, which where yet to be ordered into atmosphere - liquid ocean.

The Earth in essence, was Crust and some form of chaotic vapourous covering, over which God was present having made it that way - preparing to order it.

2:  God brought order, and stability to the Earth, and its Waters, putting Life on it in the span of six periods of time; literal 24 hour day - or literally symbolic day measuring eons; as God said himself - A day to God is as a thousand years, which is "literally symbolic" language meaning a very, very long time to us, is a short time to God.

3:  It was Good.

There is very little concerning the "how" and "how long" when you actually look at it, merely statements of "did", he leaves the finding of "how" and "how long" to us to discover...and quite frankly God had no purpose (as his word shows) in telling us the full details of his work, which most likely would not be graspable to us anyway, and certainly not to the early Hebrews who only had scales for weighing bartering goods, and had no concept of microbiology other than God telling them "if you have mildew, clean your house, and leave your poop outside the camp, buried!":  From ISA2

B'racraph bra aleim ath e'shimin u'ath e'artz

in'beginning he-created Elohim >> the'heavens and >> the'earth

u'e'artz eithe theu u'beu u'chshk ol -phini theum u'ruch alehim mrchphth ol phni e'min

and'the'earth she-became chaos and vacancy and'darkness over surfaces-of abyss and spirit-of Elohim vibrating over surfaces-of the'waters

u'iamr aleim iei aur e'iei -aur

and'he-is-saying Elohim he-shall-become light and'he-is-becoming-light

u'ira aleim ath-e'aur ki -tub u'ibdl aleim bin  e'aur u'bin e'chshk

and'he-is-seeing Elohim >> the'light that good and'he-is-separating Elohim between the'light and'between the'darkness

u'iqra aleim l'aur ium u'l'chshk qra lile u'iei -orb u'iei bqr ium achd : p

and'he-is-calling Elohim to'thelight day and'tothe'darkness he-calls night and'he-is-becoming evening and he-is-becoming morning day one.


"ium" is "yom".
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 04:12:09 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline shawn

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1586
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #91 on: September 09, 2010, 06:15:09 PM »
Quote from: willieH
The WORD notes the age of the Earth to be [approximately] 6K years... 

The Bible doesn't actually say that, does it?

No...Molly it doesn't. 

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5565
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2010, 07:41:08 PM »
I believe in "Bible speak" it does.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8948
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2010, 08:49:21 PM »
Quick insert.  (I should know better than to stick my nose in this).   :laughing7:

We talked about the gap theory in Genesis a couple of weeks ago.  

Would it be worth considering, that Greek Interlinear has 'kosmon', which is typically translated as 'world', translated first as 'SYSTEM' - then it's turned into/translated 'world'?

Also, the related word 'kosmos' also has these definitions, besides 'world';

kosmos - condition of orderliness, orderly arrangement, order  3. the sum total of everything here and now, the world, the (orderly) universe, in philosophical usage   4. the sum total of all beings above the level of the animals

Anything there to possibly broaden the scope of interpretation?

Yes, I agree--a world system, or an aion.  Although there are a lot of references to aions, God doesn't specifically spell them out to us [or if he does, I'm not aware of it.]

But, for me, this aion has as its foundation the lamb slain--

You can't have that without death.  And, [I think] you can't have death without the law.

 Yours and Tony's take on the Law issue is interesting.  I'd never seen it quite from that perspective before.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2010, 08:54:29 PM »
There is no scripture that states or implies the earth is only 6000 years old.

The intepretation is based upon a strict assertion that creation all actually happened in a literal week.   There are no scriptures that verify the truth of this timeline, it is religiously asserted the same way it is in this thread.

"If you do not agree then you have a problem with the Word of God".  This is nonsense,  if scripture says the earth is that old, then it is a simply matter of demonstrating this with the text and it cannot be done.



Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2010, 09:12:10 PM »
Quote from: willieH
The WORD notes the age of the Earth to be [approximately] 6K years... 

The Bible doesn't actually say that, does it?

No...Molly it doesn't. 

:rolleye:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2010, 09:20:33 PM »
NO!  SIN was NOT ...IN... the WORLD until it ...ENTERED... via ADAM.  

The Scripture does not say that SIN was IN the world, then ENTERED via ADAM...  Which is what you are trying to manufacture.

It says AFTER the notation that SIN ENTERED via ADAM... that it was already IN the world... for it had ENTERED via ADAM!

The LAW which ADAM transgressed BEFORE it was given, is the LAW of MOSES... which indicates SIN --- as is noted by James 2:11-12 -- which is the LAW of liberty from which JUDGMENT proceeds.

SIN could NOT be ...IN... the world [creation], until it ...ENTERED it.  Which it DID... via ADAM... :nod:

...willieH  :happygrin:
It's not that hard to understand I think...
Lemme explain with a more worldly example.
In teh USA it's a crime to download movies. Where I live it's perfectly legal. Same activity but for some it's illegal (sin) for others not.
But if copyright laws change here downloading movies becomes illegal (sin)
Those that lived before the new download law didn't break the law. Those that live after the new download law and still download are breaking that law.
Adam was the first man that after the new law still downloaded. The download sin entered via Adam.

SIN means "missing the mark"... God is "Gloriously" PERFECT, as are His COMMANDS, as are His standards = the "mark".   :idea2: 

In coming up short of "the mark", we "MISS" it...  :sigh:

SIN entered by ADAM "missing the mark" of PERFECTION... all subsequent humans which came AFTER the one who "missed FIRST"... "miss" as well.

Nevertheless the FIRST man, was the vehicle in which SIN entered the Creation.

...willieH  :happygrin:

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2010, 09:28:39 PM »
I will throw this bit of info out there. Its been said that "sin entered in via Adam" and if that is the case, and Paul says it as well; but why is it that the FIRST time SIN is mentioned is in accordance with CAIN not Adam?
Good point. Perhaps because the "entering" is about the offspring of Adam.
In a way Cain entered the world via Adam (and Eve) because they decided to have children.

Actually GOD decided that they would have children... for in a POSITIVE directive (just as the "directive" of abstaining from the "tree" was in the NEGATIVE), YHVH said:  "Be fruitful and multiply..." -- Gen 1:27

...willieH   :happygrin:

Offline Lefein

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2010, 09:33:17 PM »
WELL whillieH you might say that Because EVERYTHING (the Earth, Animals, Etc) was put under ADAM'S dominion, that when SIN entered ADAM everything UNDER him suffered the same.  :dontknow:

<>---<>---<>

(Warning: Written in long-hand for explicit detail)

The problem is not so much about sin, and the entrance of it perhaps, so much as it is about separation.  They disobeyed, and sundered the connection between God and man, not because God sundered it first, but because mankind - Adam and Eve, hid themselves, they fled.  They made the first move in separating themselves from God.  It was God who sought them first...only to find (alas to his knowing already) that they refused to repent, and in that repentance turn back to him.  It is only when we run away from God, that we miss him, and inevitably fall into sin.  Whether or not it is running away from God who is Love into the arms of The Law which is Death, or else running away from God into the arms of pagan devils, or even into ourselves, and our own sinfulness.

Sin only occurs due to a lack of God's presence: If we walk in the spirit, we won't fulfill the desires of the flesh.

It is from Death that sin comes; Without The Law we would not know of sin - The Law is Death, the wages of disobedience/sin is The Law, which is death.

When Adam disobeyed, dying he died.  From that dying he began to sin - just as a rotting corpse begins to stink.

Sin did not enter into Adam - Death did!  Because he, and Eve forfeited life by running away from The Life.

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they disobeyed God, and realised immediately the consequences - They became aware!  They had a revelation of their shame, their nakedness, they lost their innocence which rendered them responsible to The Law, which is death, because The Law is the mirror by which we see our shame, our nakedness, our destruction, but it does not clothe and heal; The Law is thus - The wages of sin, is death, that is why Grace, which is the superseding force above The Law is a gift, which is Life.  The Law is "wages earned", Grace is "a given gift undeserved".

Adam and Eve, upon taking the first bite where already dying, and dead - being responsible to The Law and its wages, the wages of sin - Death.  It is only by running away from God, and refusing to repent and turn back to Life that they could not enjoy the fruit of the tree of Life - the gift of life; and so died, and death became the enemy, the real enemy of man.

That is why Death is the "final boss".  Satan is a created being, but death is a form of absence; a void...a thing beyond a created being that cannot be stopped except one who is beyond creation - God, who is Life which like light in darkness fills it, and replaces it, casting it out, overwhelming it for as long as even a spark of it remains.

I just wanted to remind everyone that Sin isn't the thing that entered into Adam, and into the creation subjected to him - it was Death, caused by the unrepented separation from God when they ran.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 10:05:28 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: Split, Creation - Science, Faith, Literal/Symbolic, etc.
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2010, 10:38:52 PM »
Regarding willieH's posts--

It took me a while to get used to them, but now I consider them a work of art.  I can't imagine how he creates them any more than I can imagine how Rembrandt created the Night Watch.

God did not give me artistic talent, alas... :sigh:  Nor the patience it requires.

But, thankfully, now I am coming to appreciate art more and more.

So to willieH--I appreciate and enjoy your posts, but even more the talent that it takes to create them. :thumbsup: